Is there a dual mass flywheel that doesn't suck?

[pimpbot]

Hi all,

B7 Avant MT6, 2.0t here. I had the car for 3.5 years, since 77k miles, now at 177k. Overall the car is in great shape, and I'm a stickler for the maintenance. It's APR chipped, but that's about it for the engine mods. I mostly drove freeways until recently when I moved closer to work. I now drive a lot of stop and go in Bay Area traffic, driving my kid to school in the next county over. I double clutch and speed match my shifts. I don't launch the car, or anything abusive.

Seem like I just changed out my clutch 75k miles ago, and now it's slipping again. I have good shift habits, but I got 177k miles on the car. Maybe it was a failed oil seal, I dunno. I had that issue with my GTi years ago. A bad pushrod bushing made oil seep past a new oil seal, and it dumped gear oil in my clutch, and my mech missed it the first time around. Luckily, he took responsibility and redid my clutch for free 6 months later. But, that's probably not what's going on here. I digress. It just seems 75k miles is really short for a clutch to last. My old GTi got like 140k miles on the first clutch, and I sold the car at 250k miles and the clutch was still solid.

But, that stupid dual mass flywheel is chattering again. I can totally hear it clacking when switching between throttle on and throttle off. Ugh. $600 part that wears out in 75k miles? That's just lame. I'm not driving that hard, I don't think.

I'm reluctant to go to a single mass flywheel. I did it once on my ex wife's B5 Avant, and it was definitely a lot rougher and noisier at idle. Maybe I just do it anyway. This girl is getting a bit old for prom. She might have to give up some of her elegance. I don't plan on doing any more significant engine mods. I may do a K04 Frankenturbo kinda setup if the stock turbo dies, but that's about it.

I'd also like to keep a lighter pedal, if that's possible. I have a weird fantasy that my wife is going to learn to drive stick. She went out a couple times to learn, but she's got some medical issues with her leg strength, so she's putting it off for now until they clear. She does give he a hard time about how the Audi needs so much maintenance, and I should get a Corolla like her car. Ugh, no. An expensive replacement clutch job that lasts 75k miles just adds more evidence to her argument.

But I have to ask: Is there a dual mass flywheel that actually lasts? Or, are the newer single mass flywheels better than in the past... or, is the noise isolation on the B7 that much better than the B5, so it's not that big a problem? I dunno. What do you all think?

[canadianA4B7]

Autoplicity.com clutchmasters STEEL single mass felt very very oem being it’s steel the weight is there to retain oem like revs, very little if not any chatter (unless your taking off in 2nd gear).

[aluthman]

I used the Clutchmasters steel smfw on my last B7 and it worked great.

[EvolutionArmory]

I don’t have an answer for an upgraded dual mass but the ECS steel flywheel is pretty sweet.

No noise at idle at all and I only get some chatter in low RPM’s in 2nd gear but I also have 034 mounts which might be adding to that. I can’t recommend it enough.

[pimpbot]

Great! Thanks for the info. I'll probably go ECS RA4 single mass. It seems the stock clutch is just weaksauce, especially one the motor is chipped.

[aluthman]

Great! Thanks for the info. I'll probably go ECS RA4 single mass. It seems the stock clutch is just weaksauce, especially one the motor is chipped.

That or JHM stage 1 is a great choice for most people. They are basically the same clutch (OEM RS4) with slightly different flywheels IIRC.

[rhfosu]

Great! Thanks for the info. I'll probably go ECS RA4 single mass. It seems the stock clutch is just weaksauce, especially one the motor is chipped.

I run the RA4 single mass. I don't have any chatter. I've been impressed with it, FWIW.

[jhoward]

The b6 S4 stock clutch is really nice (I assume the b7 is the same thing ). I test drove another avant that had the Jhm clutch, and I didn't care for it - thought it took away from buttery driving experience mine has. I'm sure jhm's is bullet - I just didn't like the feel. Just my personal opinion and another option to try


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[SilverStargazin]

The b6 S4 stock clutch is really nice (I assume the b7 is the same thing ). I test drove another avant that had the Jhm clutch, and I didn't care for it - thought it took away from buttery driving experience mine has. I'm sure jhm's is bullet - I just didn't like the feel. Just my personal opinion and another option to try


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Can you talk a little bit more on why you didn't like the flywheel? I'm getting a new clutch and can't decide if I should go light wheel steel flywheel or OEM dual mass? I would like the extra power and faster revs but I like the luxury car feeling and dont want all the chatter and vibrations. Not sure what to do. Thanks

[Gosser]

I went with ECS RA4 Steel LWFW stage 1 for my 6 spd b6 1.8T stage 1+, and I absolutely hate it. It grabs great, holds the power, no chatter, but if you are in the wrong gear it shakes the shit out of the car. I'll grab a video of it because its unbearable and feels like a tractor. In the right gear its fine, but I miss being able to putter around side street and taking off in second, or hanging out in third going slow. The trade off in luxury for what minimal gains that arent even really measurable arent worth it in my opinion. I'll be removing it and sticking in the valoe single mass stock weight flywheel. I put a single regular mass valoe kit in my sisters 5spd 1.8t and its night and day compared to my 6spd. The LUK B5S4 pressure plate from the RA4 is great and will definitely keep it. If you are looking to retain some sort of luxury, then try to avoid the LWFW. But thats my opinion, and I'm considered old according to the cashiers when purchasing liquor...

For my 2.7t B7 avant build, I will definitely avoid LWFWs.

[macantley]

I have an ECS RA4 clutch in mine with a JHM stage 1 tune, the clutch grabs wonderfully and only slightly more pedal effort than the OEM setup that i had before with 10k miles on it. i will say that my RA4 setup has alot more vibration at idle over the OEM setup, i dont have much chatter but i definitely have more vibration at idle.

[oVeRdOsE]

I run the RA4 single mass. I don't have any chatter. I've been impressed with it, FWIW.

some says they have chatter.

imo, I feel like the ECS is somewhat like my OEM in the dd driving, but with better grip and no chatter. also all 4 wheels can spin on wet road now .

nothing like my previous car on a 6 puck ceramic ultra grip that you can't get it slip without stalling...

A member here tested my car, and he got a JHM single mass, he told me that the ecs got almost no chatter in comparison on his jhm.

[jhoward]

Can you talk a little bit more on why you didn't like the flywheel? I'm getting a new clutch and can't decide if I should go light wheel steel flywheel or OEM dual mass? I would like the extra power and faster revs but I like the luxury car feeling and dont want all the chatter and vibrations. Not sure what to do. Thanks

Sure- I've had a whole bunch of manual transmission cars, and the set up in my S4 is just so buttery and pleasant to drive, it's light years above anything else I've tried (including my wife's B7 A4 avant - they're completely different from each other). I'm having a new engine put in mine- before that decision I test drove another S4 just like mine only this one had the Jhm headers, clutch and LW flywheel (upgrades I was planning on adding) . I just didn't like how harsh the clutch felt, it was too sensitive, and annoying to be in my daily driver. The dual mass takes up the slack and really keeps the shifts smooth. The LW flywheel and clutch Is jerky and harsh and took all the love out of the system that sold me in the first place

That experience made me double down on my own car- I just love it. I drive my car hard, but I don't drag it or really need much more clutch. Oem clutch made it 106k miles. I can't tell you if it's my gear box or the clutch or the two combined, but I can tell you it's light years better than the A4 set up. If you're looking to upgrade, I'd personally put my efforts towards an S4 setup over a LW flywheel set up


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[pimpbot]

Sure- I've had a whole bunch of manual transmission cars, and the set up in my S4 is just so buttery and pleasant to drive, it's light years above anything else I've tried (including my wife's B7 A4 avant - they're completely different from each other). I'm having a new engine put in mine- before that decision I test drove another S4 just like mine only this one had the Jhm headers, clutch and LW flywheel (upgrades I was planning on adding) . I just didn't like how harsh the clutch felt, it was too sensitive, and annoying to be in my daily driver. The dual mass takes up the slack and really keeps the shifts smooth. The LW flywheel and clutch Is jerky and harsh and took all the love out of the system that sold me in the first place

That experience made me double down on my own car- I just love it. I drive my car hard, but I don't drag it or really need much more clutch. Oem clutch made it 106k miles. I can't tell you if it's my gear box or the clutch or the two combined, but I can tell you it's light years better than the A4 set up. If you're looking to upgrade, I'd personally put my efforts towards an S4 setup over a LW flywheel set up


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Yeah, I want that nice buttery smooth feeling. My problem is, I've owned 3 A4s in my time, a B5, B6 and B7. They've all needed clutch jobs done in the time I've owned them. They always have to have the DMF replaced... every gawdang time. I got pretty tuned into what it sounds like when it fails. I'm surprised VW/Audi hasn't figured this out yet; how to make a DMF that lasts longer than the clutch disc. Or, they need to figure out how to do the same job of smoothing out the engine/trans rumble without the DMF.

I'm just tired of plunking down good money after bad on this part. With the mileage I drive, I seem to kill a clutch every 3 years. Funny thing is, my MK3 GTi I got 180k miles out of my first clutch doing pretty much the same driving (although at half the horsepower and 600 pounds less weight). This is the kind of stuff that makes me rethink my car needs. Maybe I need to stop enjoying driving my car and get a boring ass Toyota and risk falling asleep at the wheel. Okay, I'm being overly dramatic, but you get my idea. My wife views cars like toasters. As long it does the job of getting you there, who cares? Maybe she has a valid point. In fact, I have a hard time justifying buying a manual for the next car because she won't be able to drive it, and it doesn't seem fair to use our family money on something only I can use.

Yeah, I think I just need to give up some of the smoothness of the DMF and go steel one piece. I'll probably get the heavier one of the bunch just for less shake.

[EvolutionArmory]

I drive 400 miles a week on average. My DMF was fine when I wrenched it out at 160,000 miles because I went K04. My wife’s car has 130,000 miles and the clutch and flywheel is still fine. Her B5 had 297,000 miles and the clutch needed to be replaced but we just got rid of it instead. Could it be your driving style that is making you burn through clutches/flywheels?

My B7 is the only car I’ve ever replaced a clutch on and it was only due to adding more power and I’ve only owned 1 AT car in the 25 years I’ve been driving. You going through 3 flywheels in 3 different A4’s makes me think it’s more you than the way Audi designs flywheels.

Nothing personal. It’s just a thought I had. Could it be something with the way you drive?

[pimpbot]

I drive 400 miles a week on average. My DMF was fine when I wrenched it out at 160,000 miles because I went K04. My wife’s car has 130,000 miles and the clutch and flywheel is still fine. Her B5 had 297,000 miles and the clutch needed to be replaced but we just got rid of it instead. Could it be your driving style that is making you burn through clutches/flywheels?

My B7 is the only car I’ve ever replaced a clutch on and it was only due to adding more power and I’ve only owned 1 AT car in the 25 years I’ve been driving. You going through 3 flywheels in 3 different A4’s makes me think it’s more you than the way Audi designs flywheels.

Nothing personal. It’s just a thought I had. Could it be something with the way you drive?

I thought of that. My shifting technique is pretty clean, I think. I do drive a bit heavy footed sometimes. I do have a habit of double clutching on all the downshifts. I would think that would cause extra wear on the throwout bearing and master and slave cylinders, but not the clutch disc or flywheel. I don't slam my gears. I also put it in neutral if I'm stopped at a stop light for more than a few seconds. I have been driving more stop and go traffic since taking a job that requires commuting. The only thing unusual about the B7 is that it's chipped, and so was my B6, but not the B5.

[Ringsby4]

I have an ECS RA4 clutch in mine with a JHM stage 1 tune, the clutch grabs wonderfully and only slightly more pedal effort than the OEM setup that i had before with 10k miles on it. i will say that my RA4 setup has alot more vibration at idle over the OEM setup, i dont have much chatter but i definitely have more vibration at idle.

+1 for most comments as I run this setup except I've experienced absol. no vibration/chatter whatsoever,heading towards 40 k kms now.
Very happy

[67Twisty]

I thought of that. My shifting technique is pretty clean, I think. I do drive a bit heavy footed sometimes. I do have a habit of double clutching on all the downshifts. I would think that would cause extra wear on the throwout bearing and master and slave cylinders, but not the clutch disc or flywheel.

Double clutching isn’t really necessary in an A4 with modern synchros. And it does place extra wear on the clutch plate and flywheel as you’re attempting to use the throttle to time engine and transmission speeds and re-engaging them twice as frequently. It’s your car so do as you wish but it’s cheaper to replace brakes more frequently than a clutch.

I just went through the same decision as you and decided to stick with a DMFW. My Avant mostly sees in town driving duties these days and the dual mass unit is simply smoother.

[mcpcartier]

I got 192,500 miles on my original DMFW so they can last. I did go with the JHM LWFW with the RS4 pressure plate when I changed it 2 years ago. Its definitely stiffer and there is a little vibration when in the wrong gear at low rpm's, but not much. I'm happy with the new setup....have 33,000 miles on it so far.

[EvolutionArmory]

You definitely have to make different gearing choices when you go single mass lightweight flywheel and stiffer clutch if you want to keep it smooth but the benefits outweigh the negatives in my opinion. To me, if you’re going to replace the clutch and flywheel, the ECS RA4 is a no brainer. If my wife’s car ever needs a clutch, that’s what it will be getting.

I don’t have any issues driving my RS4 clutch and steel SM flywheel in traffic. Sometimes 2nd gear gets a little noisy under 2k but so what? 😀

[mcpcartier]

Sometimes 2nd gear gets a little noisy under 2k but so what? 😀

This.....

[pimpbot]

This.....

Um, yeah. That's exactly my worry. I spend a lot of time chugging along the freeway during commute time at 30-40 mph in a low gear under 2k rpm under a light load.

[viziers]

You will learn to feather it.


vizi

[EvolutionArmory]

Um, yeah. That's exactly my worry. I spend a lot of time chugging along the freeway during commute time at 30-40 mph in a low gear under 2k rpm under a light load.

You’ll be in 3rd gear at that speed. It will be fine.