Insane oil consumption after PCV Valve Fix

[Brillo]

I should have the chance to try this in the next week or so, but shouldn’t I block both sides and stick a needle through one? If i leave one side open it won’t hold pressure no matter what?

Yes, completely block off one side of the passageway and pressurize (or evacuate) from the other side. Look at the Shiro picture you previously saw. Block off either port, 1-f or 1-r, and pressurize from the other port. If you cannot hold pressure in the passageway between the two ports you have a leak and need to replace the VC. The leak allows the ingress of oil which will make its way down the pre-TC port into the induction system.
Look at post #9 at link below.
https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...7#post13303037

[a1dan_87]

Well- news!

So far, in 150 miles the car has drank 2/3s off the dipstick. The issue isn't as bad, but the car is definitely still drinking. It's slowed by about 100 miles from Max to the oil light

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[Theiceman]

Well- news!

So far, in 150 miles the car has drank 2/3s off the dipstick. The issue isn't as bad, but the car is definitely still drinking. It's slowed by about 100 miles from Max to the oil light

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thought so .. rings ..

[a1dan_87]

thought so .. rings ..

Good lord I hope not. I might pull the breather hose and intake off in a bit, and see if there's oil coating the intake and PCV breather hose

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[deusilan]

Put some dye into the engine and check the engine out with a UV light. You will see your leak right away.

[a1dan_87]

Put some dye into the engine and check the engine out with a UV light. You will see your leak right away.

Good idea! I need oil for my A6 (oil consumption too, probably the PCV). I'll pick up some dye when I go down and grab that as well, good idea.

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[Theiceman]

there should be , oil vapour through that passage is normal. I had you issue ... put on an OE pcv module. af version I think . drank a litre in 180 miles...

stripped it down and rings were caked up and shot.

[SoCal Ian]

Wow, I’m having the exact same issue!
After head job and pcv replacement-car started drinking half a quart every 300 miles. Took it back to the mechanic who did the work and he said pcv was fine and basically told me good luck after that.
Anyone have an estimate on ring replacement job?


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[Theiceman]

Wow, I’m having the exact same issue!
After head job and pcv replacement-car started drinking half a quart every 300 miles. Took it back to the mechanic who did the work and he said pcv was fine and basically told me good luck after that.
Anyone have an estimate on ring replacement job?


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brace yourself .. I think its over 8 grand from Audi.. if your bores are scored its new engine time... my buddy had his engine replaced with a one from a wreck with 60K on it for 5600 bucks.

if you want to get an idea of the work involved have a look at my B8.5 engine refresh thread. Lots of pics in there of the process and what the pistons look like.

its a b8 but I'm sure it is similar .. I think Charles is having similar consumption issues with his B7 .

[a1dan_87]

Wow, I’m having the exact same issue!
After head job and pcv replacement-car started drinking half a quart every 300 miles. Took it back to the mechanic who did the work and he said pcv was fine and basically told me good luck after that.
Anyone have an estimate on ring replacement job?


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Here's my thoughts and some tests to run.

add some high-temp UV dye to the oil when you fill it back up/change it

block off one side of the VC passage, try to pressurize the passage and see if it holds pressure (meaning its still sealed from the valves, holding pressure)

check PCV breather tube for oil/check intake for oil

compression test

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[a1dan_87]

brace yourself .. I think its over 8 grand from Audi.. if your bores are scored its new engine time... my buddy had his engine replaced with a one from a wreck with 60K on it for 5600 bucks.

if you want to get an idea of the work involved have a look at my B8.5 engine refresh thread. Lots of pics in there of the process and what the pistons look like.

Also, I hope not. Our car is worth about 7 grand in its condition, and unless we put a used engine in, this has potential to write it off.

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[Brillo]

Here's my thoughts and some tests to run.

add some high-temp UV dye to the oil when you fill it back up/change it

block off one side of the VC passage, try to pressurize the passage and see if it holds pressure (meaning its still sealed from the valves, holding pressure)

check PCV breather tube for oil/check intake for oil

compression test

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If you have eliminated all other possible sources of oil loss it might come down to the rings. Unless there is something grossly wrong with the rings a compression test (or leak down test) might not indicate the health of the rings. Here is why, and this comes from a discussion I had with an experienced Audi mechanic several months ago:

There will be plenty of oil on the cylinder walls so the compression rings will seal quite well yielding acceptable compression values. But the problem lies with the oil control rings. As you know, the oil control rings actually consists of an upper and lower ring and a separater in between which is usually a serpentine shape. Also, there are oil drain holes cut into the vertical surface of the oil control ring groove of the piston.

As the piston moves in the cylinder oil is sprayed on the cylinder wall and it is the job of the oil control ring to scrape it off leaving just enough to lubricate the upper rings against the cylinder to reduce ring/cylinder wall friction and bolster compression. The lower oil control ring scrapes most of the oil off the cylinder wall and the upper ring scrapes much of the remainder which drains through the separator between the rings and out the drain holes in the ring groove, adjacent to the ring separator.

Apparently, the oil control rings, the ring separator, and the drain holes can get pretty buggered up with crusty old oil and other products of combustion causing them to function poorly, ie. they do not scrape much oil from the cylinder wall. This oil is then burned in the combustion cycle further exacerbating the level of carbonaceous crud blown down into the oil control ring space. I don't know for sure but this phenomenon may be a function of ring/piston design, brand of oil used, oil change intervals; or some combination of factors. I don't know of a fix other than replacing the rings and cleaning the piston grooves - in short a pretty extensive rebuild. Thoughts or comments please.

[Theiceman]

If you have eliminated all other possible sources of oil loss it might come down to the rings. Unless there is something grossly wrong with the rings a compression test (or leak down test) might not indicate the health of the rings. Here is why, and this comes from a discussion I had with an experienced Audi mechanic several months ago:

There will be plenty of oil on the cylinder walls so the compression rings will seal quite well yielding acceptable compression values. But the problem lies with the oil control rings. As you know, the oil control rings actually consists of an upper and lower ring and a separater in between which is usually a serpentine shape. Also, there are oil drain holes cut into the vertical surface of the oil control ring groove of the piston.

As the piston moves in the cylinder oil is sprayed on the piston wall and it is the job of the oil control ring to scrape it off leaving just enough to lubricate the upper rings against the cylinder to reduce ring/cylinder wall friction and bolster compression. The lower oil control ring scrapes most of the oil off the cylinder wall and the upper ring scrapes much of the remainder which drains through the separator between the rings and out the drain holes in the ring groove, adjacent to the ring separator.

Apparently, the oil control rings, the ring separator, and the drain holes can get pretty buggered up with crusty old oil and other products of combustion causing them to function poorly, ie. they do not scrape much oil from the cylinder wall. This oil is then burned in the combustion cycle further exacerbating the level of carbonaceous crud blown down into the oil control ring space. I don't know for sure but this phenomenon may be a function of ring/piston design, brand of oil used, oil change intervals; or some combination of factors. I don't know of a fix other than replacing the rings and cleaning the piston grooves - in short a pretty extensive rebuild. Thoughts or comments please.

This is right on the money.
IMG_8124.jpg


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[texadelphia]

If you have eliminated all other possible sources of oil loss it might come down to the rings. Unless there is something grossly wrong with the rings a compression test (or leak down test) might not indicate the health of the rings. Here is why, and this comes from a discussion I had with an experienced Audi mechanic several months ago:

There will be plenty of oil on the cylinder walls so the compression rings will seal quite well yielding acceptable compression values. But the problem lies with the oil control rings. As you know, the oil control rings actually consists of an upper and lower ring and a separater in between which is usually a serpentine shape. Also, there are oil drain holes cut into the vertical surface of the oil control ring groove of the piston.

As the piston moves in the cylinder oil is sprayed on the cylinder wall and it is the job of the oil control ring to scrape it off leaving just enough to lubricate the upper rings against the cylinder to reduce ring/cylinder wall friction and bolster compression. The lower oil control ring scrapes most of the oil off the cylinder wall and the upper ring scrapes much of the remainder which drains through the separator between the rings and out the drain holes in the ring groove, adjacent to the ring separator.

Apparently, the oil control rings, the ring separator, and the drain holes can get pretty buggered up with crusty old oil and other products of combustion causing them to function poorly, ie. they do not scrape much oil from the cylinder wall. This oil is then burned in the combustion cycle further exacerbating the level of carbonaceous crud blown down into the oil control ring space. I don't know for sure but this phenomenon may be a function of ring/piston design, brand of oil used, oil change intervals; or some combination of factors. I don't know of a fix other than replacing the rings and cleaning the piston grooves - in short a pretty extensive rebuild. Thoughts or comments please.

Good Lord, I can't even entertain the thought of this. My car is currently going through a quart every 1200-1300 miles. Makes me want to sell the thing before it has a chance to get to this point.

[Theiceman]

Good Lord, I can't even entertain the thought of this. My car is currently going through a quart every 1200-1300 miles. Makes me want to sell the thing before it has a chance to get to this point.

that is actually not bad believe it or not, I was a quart every 180 miles on my B8.

[Brillo]

This is right on the money.
IMG_8124.jpg


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Holy schnikes Batman! Theiceman, that first photo, if you blow it up you can see that the oil control ring is completely clogged with crud and perfectly exemplary of what the Audi tech was telling me. Thanks for posting. I wonder if there is any chance that an EPR or Seafoam treatment would have any effect on cleaning that up. Somehow I doubt it. IMHO this is certainly supportive of the use of only premium synthetic oil and regular and shorter oil change intervals.

[Brillo]

Interesting.
https://www.euromechanica.com.au/blo...il-consumption

[texadelphia]

that is actually not bad believe it or not, I was a quart every 180 miles on my B8.

I suppose it is right in the "500 mL / 1000 km" range, I've just never owned a car that consumed more than a quart every 5000 miles so it makes me inherently uneasy.

[Theiceman]

Holy schnikes Batman! Theiceman, that first photo, if you blow it up you can see that the oil control ring is completely clogged with crud and perfectly exemplary of what the Audi tech was telling me. Thanks for posting. I wonder if there is any chance that an EPR or Seafoam treatment would have any effect on cleaning that up. Somehow I doubt it. IMHO this is certainly supportive of the use of only premium synthetic oil and regular and shorter oil change intervals.

yup those are my pistons out of my B8. the techs analysis is dead nuts right.. the new pistons I put in were a completely different design.

for those interested what is involved with this I will post a link from my B8.5 rebuild.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...refresh-Thread

CAUTION IT IS PICTURE HEAVY , AND SOME OF THE IMAGES COULD BE DISTURBING TO YOUNGER VIEWERS :)

[a1dan_87]

that is actually not bad believe it or not, I was a quart every 180 miles on my B8.

Thats about where were at, if not worse. 250 miles, 2.5+ litres of oil. As said before, it's about max on the dipstick to oil light in a period of anywhere between 200-300 miles.

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[a1dan_87]

Also. Forgot to add the pictures, but this might be relevant. This was happening when we first garaged the car, but it also did it on the first start with the new turbo. I haven't noticed anything since (but the car stays outside now)IMG_20190130_144028.jpegIMG_20190130_144010.jpeg

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[Theiceman]

of course this ring theory is assuming you have replaced the pcv and cracked valve cover mentioned earlier and have verified your turbo seals are not shot.

[Theiceman]

Also. Forgot to add the pictures, but this might be relevant. This was happening when we first garaged the car, but it also did it on the first start with the new turbo. I haven't noticed anything since (but the car stays outside now)IMG_20190130_144028.jpegIMG_20190130_144010.jpeg

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yup looks familiar, it is ingesting so much oil it can burn it and is pumping it through . id get that valve cover off.

[a1dan_87]

So unfortunately, I'm back.

A set of intercoolers, a valve cover, injector cleaning, fluid change, brake booster vacuum pump, and replacement of ALL turbo airflow piping, the issue persists (at a mechanic this most recent visit, about a month ago. A $2500+ mis-diagnosis [can we get them to make it right somehow?] Later it still isn't fixed)

But, it's gotten worse. The car now smokes as early as first gear @ 5k RPM. https://youtu.be/XqfalA3GEaQ

You can hear it fall flat in the video, and at an earlier stoplight it was a swirl of black/grey smoke that smelled like fireworks, enough to completely mask the car behind us (mind you, close at a stoplight- super dense smoke)

We're out of ideas at this point.

A new turbo, valve cover, PCV valve, new intercoolers, new piping, CC/injector service, and brake booster vacuum pump later, were losing patience here.

My last, hopeless thought is leaning more and more towards the rings.

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[Brillo]

So unfortunately, I'm back.

A set of intercoolers, a valve cover, injector cleaning, fluid change, brake booster vacuum pump, and replacement of ALL turbo airflow piping, the issue persists (at a mechanic this most recent visit, about a month ago. A $2500+ mis-diagnosis [can we get them to make it right somehow?] Later it still isn't fixed)

But, it's gotten worse. The car now smokes as early as first gear @ 5k RPM. https://youtu.be/XqfalA3GEaQ

You can hear it fall flat in the video, and at an earlier stoplight it was a swirl of black/grey smoke that smelled like fireworks, enough to completely mask the car behind us (mind you, close at a stoplight- super dense smoke)

We're out of ideas at this point.

A new turbo, valve cover, PCV valve, new intercoolers, new piping, CC/injector service, and brake booster vacuum pump later, were losing patience here.

My last, hopeless thought is leaning more and more towards the rings.

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Sorry to hear A1dan. You've done everything but the piston rings. I wouldn't know anywhere else to look at this point. I know of no other way to de-gunk the oil control rings other than to replace.

[a1dan_87]

I've given up hope. Not being the owner of the car, and not being the person financially responsible for the car (two different people) I'm out of options and such, as telling both people tests to schedule and such has gone ignored (after they ask for help). Both of the other people in this situation have ideas in their heads contradicting everything I've come across from multiple threads on the forum.

Current plan? I'm not sure. Financially responsible party wants to pay someone to replace the turbo AGAIN, and refuses to hear otherwise. It's basically out of my control now, no amount of scouring forums would seem to help anymore.

I'll go ahead and call this over, and just say "the issue is fixed" or we sold the car. Thanks to everyone who contributed! If by some miracle it's fixed, I'll drop an update here when that moment comes

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[Theiceman]

I've given up hope. Not being the owner of the car, and not being the person financially responsible for the car (two different people) I'm out of options and such, as telling both people tests to schedule and such has gone ignored (after they ask for help). Both of the other people in this situation have ideas in their heads contradicting everything I've come across from multiple threads on the forum.

Current plan? I'm not sure. Financially responsible party wants to pay someone to replace the turbo AGAIN, and refuses to hear otherwise. It's basically out of my control now, no amount of scouring forums would seem to help anymore.

I'll go ahead and call this over, and just say "the issue is fixed" or we sold the car. Thanks to everyone who contributed! If by some miracle it's fixed, I'll drop an update here when that moment comes

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I dont know why you are bothering if its not your car . Just move on.

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[Brillo]

I dont know why you are bothering if its not your car . Just move on.

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Theiceman Yeah, to his credit he went out of his way to try to help the owner and driver to no avail. I think a1Dan is just trying to tie up the thread for those of us interested in the outcome of this situation. Live and learn I suppose.

[Theiceman]

yeah great he did that .. I had a buddy I was trying to help once with his car. as he called me after buying a new B8 .. I advised him to replace a timing chain and tensioner, he didn't , it snaped,,, replacement engine.. I advised him to make sure it was done on the replacement engine , he didn't, it broke again a year later and got really mad at me because I said I tried to help but I cant do anything if he doesn't listen... he lost his mind at me so I said , okay here is what you do...… call your mechanic... or sell the car for scrap, don't call me.

[pimpbot]

Also, VC leak test? How would one go about doing that? Let me know, its definitely something I need to do. PM or a reply here is good, help is appreciated.

Has anybody come up with an easy procedure for testing the valve cover pathway for the boosted PCV pathway? I mean, what... remove the PCV valve assembly, stick a hose on the back side, put your finger over the frontside port and blow? If any air leaks out, the thing is internally cracked? FWIU, the other ports don't matter, because they just vent to the inside of the engine to separate out oil mist.

me, 2007 A4 Avant, mt6q 2.0T. APR chipped and Go Fast Bits Turbo BOV. Other than that, I'm pretty much stock under the hood. I got 191k miles on it.

I get oil in my intercooler area, engine loses some oil somewhere in the system (but not on spilling to the outside of the engine... no spots on the ground). When I drive heavy footed and it the turbo hard, I smell burning oil, but I don't see smoke in my rear view mirror. I just replaced my PCV valve, but the old one seemed to be good when I removed it by the blow test.

Something makes a mechanical whine (think like a train wheel around a turn)... maybe the turbo or a badly leaking pressurized intake when I'm near redline, almost sounding like a starved turbo bearing, maybe. It's fine the rest of the time. Also, the engine is sucking down the oil cap, and the engine stumbles with the oil cap off. I'm reading that this is a sign the the PCV valve is bad, but I would gather that any car would do this if you take away the scavenging vacuum on these cars, bad PCV or good.

Anyway, I had the valve cover off about six months ago because I developed an oil leak to the outside, near the back at the exhaust manifold side. I had it off to replace the gasket, and reinstalled it with sealant. I'd rather not pull that whole works apart again unless I get some evidence that the valve cover really is cracked inside. If it's cracked, I only want to take it apart once when I replace the valve cover.

Any insights?

**subscribing to this thread for updates**

[texadelphia]

Has anybody come up with an easy procedure for testing the valve cover pathway for the boosted PCV pathway? I mean, what... remove the PCV valve assembly, stick a hose on the back side, put your finger over the frontside port and blow? If any air leaks out, the thing is internally cracked? FWIU, the other ports don't matter, because they just vent to the inside of the engine to separate out oil mist.

me, 2007 A4 Avant, mt6q 2.0T. APR chipped and Go Fast Bits Turbo BOV. Other than that, I'm pretty much stock under the hood. I got 191k miles on it.

I get oil in my intercooler area, engine loses some oil somewhere in the system (but not on spilling to the outside of the engine... no spots on the ground). When I drive heavy footed and it the turbo hard, I smell burning oil, but I don't see smoke in my rear view mirror. I just replaced my PCV valve, but the old one seemed to be good when I removed it by the blow test.

Something makes a mechanical whine (think like a train wheel around a turn)... maybe the turbo or a badly leaking pressurized intake when I'm near redline, almost sounding like a starved turbo bearing, maybe. It's fine the rest of the time. Also, the engine is sucking down the oil cap, and the engine stumbles with the oil cap off. I'm reading that this is a sign the the PCV valve is bad, but I would gather that any car would do this if you take away the scavenging vacuum on these cars, bad PCV or good.

Anyway, I had the valve cover off about six months ago because I developed an oil leak to the outside, near the back at the exhaust manifold side. I had it off to replace the gasket, and reinstalled it with sealant. I'd rather not pull that whole works apart again unless I get some evidence that the valve cover really is cracked inside. If it's cracked, I only want to take it apart once when I replace the valve cover.

Any insights?

**subscribing to this thread for updates**

I got 2 corks from Home Depot that fit in the ports on that front passageway. I drilled a very small hole (1/16 or 1/8) through one of them and stuck a sportsball inflation needle through the hole. Then I stuck the corks in both ends of that passageway and hooked up my bike pump, which has a built in gauge, to the inflation needle. Then I just applied a little bit of pressure to get a reading on the gauge and then watched if it held pressure. Add as little pressure as possible so you don't crack anything. My corks actually popped out while I was adding pressure. Probably want to open the oil cap too so the air has somewhere to go if it is leaking.

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[moonlight]

Here's my thoughts and some tests to run.

add some high-temp UV dye to the oil when you fill it back up/change it

block off one side of the VC passage, try to pressurize the passage and see if it holds pressure (meaning its still sealed from the valves, holding pressure)

check PCV breather tube for oil/check intake for oil

compression test

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What happens if there is oil at the breather pipe of the PCV which goes to the intake? What can be the reason for this on a brand new PCV? I am having this problem...

Could it be too much pressure from the engine because of a worn ring? Or problem with the valve cover ?

The car is 2010 B8 1.8 tfsi (cdhb engine).

[Brillo]

What happens if there is oil at the breather pipe of the PCV which goes to the intake? What can be the reason for this on a brand new PCV? I am having this problem...

Could it be too much pressure from the engine because of a worn ring? Or problem with the valve cover ?

The car is 2010 B8 1.8 tfsi (cdhb engine).

moonlight This is a B7 forum with mostly 2.0L 4 bangers. Anyway, I suspect your PCV system is very similar to that used on the B7 2.0L. The tube you are concerned about will always have some oil in it. Under normal conditions a small amount of oil mist remains in the blow-by gas following the primary and secondary oil separators. This gas is directed to the IM under non-boost conditions by the PCV valve. Some of the oil mist remaining in the gas will condense on the inside wall of the tube going from the PCV valve to the IM, and the rest will be burned in the combustion cycle via the IM. It's of no consequence and hasn't much to do with the PCV valve function. If you have a ring problem it's usually the oil control rings in which case you will be consuming a lot of oil. Are you? Your blow-by gas volume will not increase due to faulty oil control rings - compression rings yes, but they are not usually a problem with these engines. Lastly, a faulty VC problem usually results in excessive oil being drawn down the breather tube going from the right front of the VC to the pre-TC port. If it is excessive (a substantial leak due to an underside crack in the VC passageway) oil will accumulate in the IC piping. Check your IC piping by uncoupling one of them and seeing if any oil drains out. As with the oil control ring problem previously mentioned, if the VC passageway is cracked you should see excessive consumption of oil.

[Theiceman]

B7 ?

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[Brillo]

B7 ?

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Yes, B7. Thanks. Made the change.

[Theiceman]

I'm not sure of the vw nomenclature.
Does he have FSI; or TSI engine ?.

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[Brillo]

I'm not sure of the vw nomenclature.
Does he have FSI; or TSI engine ?.

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If you are referring to Mr. moonlight he said a 2010 B8 1.8 tfsi. Regarding his question though, I'm not really sure if the PCV system varies too much from what we deal with here in the US on the B7.

[Theiceman]

Yes I am talking about moonlight ..
So is a 2010 1.8 .tfsi an e113 or an e888 ..?
He could be in the wrong forum.

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[Charles.waite]

TFSI is almost always going to refer to an ea888, at east on an A4.

But yea I hate how VW marketing has just played scrabble with the TSI/FSI/TFSI nomenclature.

[Theiceman]

TFSI is almost always going to refer to an ea888, at east on an A4.

But yea I hate how VW marketing has just played scrabble with the TSI/FSI/TFSI nomenclature.

Then he is in the completely wrong forum right ?