Michelin Pilot Sport 4s - 245/35/R19 Squared on Stock Staggered Blade Wheels?

[javbomb]

Hey guys,

Wondering who has replaced the staggered Pirellis for Michelins, and what size did you go with on the STOCK Blade wheels?

I am thinking of going square 245/35/R19.

The Michelins will be 0.2" wider tread in the front than the 255 Pirellis it looks like. And 0.8" wider tread in the rear than the 235's.

My 255 Pirellis are worn to hell on the outsides due to my mistake of running them at about 35psi for too long and driving really hard. So the tire is just utter shit now and the car slides around roundabouts and corners if I put my foot down. No way I am going to buy two new OEM tyres. Only done 8000KMS.

I also have my TC light going off at stupid times occasionally and I have a feeling the almost 2% rolling circumference difference of the staggered wheel setup is to blame (my haldex is fine - the car is a rocketship in TC Sport mode), so that's also something the square setup would aim to fix hopefully.

Also looking forward to a few mm less wheel arch gap in the front.

Anyone got pics of the Michelins on the blades with stock suspension?

[Pneub]

Not exactly the info you're looking for but this is what 255/35 Pilot 4S looks like without lowering. They don't rub and they fill the gap decently.

https://imgur.com/a/l25Jt
https://imgur.com/a/nxVDP

[comingabriel]

245/35-19 PSS's square, but not stag'd, 8.5" wide all around.

[S3DUDE]

I got my RS3 with the standard set of identical wheels from factory but I was curious about the size tires and the wheel width as well. What I think that sounds ilogical is that Audi offered two types of wheels/tires sizes, why not designing a car that simply handles well without having to have 2 different size tires? I get it, they said that wider in the front corrects or adjust the "rear control" but again, why?why not just doing it just with one set of factory wheels/tires in the first place?

[comingabriel]

They really should have flared the rear wheel well much more, for moar concave and wider stance.
But, it's opposite of what Audi Engineers wanted obviously.
Wish both front and back could take more concave wheels, and wider stance for handling.
But, the same people weighed down the car with a massive/heavy moonroof, and did not offer an option without it. :screwy:
So many 7R owners wanted a moon like ours, that Europe R's got (and MPI that NAR did not).
Guess those same people are content being stock and want more form.
Soooo want to gut it out badly!!
Do the S3's have a black headliner like ours, but with a moonroof-less option?

Sorry OP, went OT....

[Potatohead_RS3]

I got my RS3 with the standard set of identical wheels from factory but I was curious about the size tires and the wheel width as well. What I think that sounds ilogical is that Audi offered two types of wheels/tires sizes, why not designing a car that simply handles well without having to have 2 different size tires? I get it, they said that wider in the front corrects or adjust the "rear control" but again, why?why not just doing it just with one set of factory wheels/tires in the first place?

I’m not a chassis or suspension engineer, but if they could have, they would have. There is only so much you can do with 58% weight on the front. They resorted to staggered setup, which is really no different than RWD cars having wider tires in the back to reduce oversteer, just the opposite.

Personally I don’t understand why so many guys just toss the factory engineering out the window, the way these things handle with the staggered setup is great, it makes no sense to me to turf that. I suppose if straight line is your thing maybe.

[javbomb]

They really should have flared the rear wheel well much more, for moar concave and wider stance.
But, it's opposite of what Audi Engineers wanted obviously.
Wish both front and back could take more concave wheels, and wider stance for handling.
But, the same people weighed down the car with a massive/heavy moonroof, and did not offer an option without it. :screwy:
So many 7R owners wanted a moon like ours, that Europe R's got (and MPI that NAR did not).
Guess those same people are content being stock and want more form.
Soooo want to gut it out badly!!
Do the S3's have a black headliner like ours, but with a moonroof-less option?

Sorry OP, went OT....

I could have ordered my car without the sunroof, you guys in the states have no option.

I like it, my A3 Sedan didnt have one, I dont think I will ever spec an Audi without it again.

[Bezlar]

I rub on 245 35 19. Lowered. 19 x 8.5 et 35. Mich as3plus. But it looks good.



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[javbomb]

Personally I don’t understand why so many guys just toss the factory engineering out the window, the way these things handle with the staggered setup is great, it makes no sense to me to turf that. I suppose if straight line is your thing maybe.

The factory tyres are shithouse. I don't like that the tread-width at the front is equiv of pretty much a 235 Michelin. My tyres are worn out on the edges already, I have to change mine if I want to take corners without sliding out, so I am at a crossroads. I definitely would not be changing out 4 good tyres I know that much, if the front tyres on my car were good I wouldn't do anything at all.

You also have guys like Jason Fieldling pretty much dominating Autocross with non-staggered tyres, I just don't seem convinced that it must be done to have a good handling car. Adding a rear sway bar and things might also help a ton to dial out that understeer.

I am not totally against going staggered with the Michelins though. Suppose I could do 245/235 Michelin staggered. I was about to sink $5,500 AUD on new rims and tyre combo but its just not worth it with some other stuff going on in my life, I think I will just add some spacers to my blades and change to good tyres.

Again, I am REALLY convinced my hypo TC light blinking has to do with the rolling diameters fighting each other of the staggered setup. My haldex is definitely working perfectly, its just silly in a straight line at 40km/hr in 3rd and I put my foot down on smooth road the TC light goes a bit nuts sometimes and the car bogs. Put it in Sport TC mode and never ever do I have a hint of TC trying to ruin my day. I suppose it could be unrelated, but 2% rolling difference is still a difference. My question is why to the engineers feel they should have differing tyre profiles on front vs rear, forget 255/235 for a second, why is the rolling diameter fighting each other in a 4WD car?

[javbomb]

I rub on 245 35 19. Lowered. 19 x 8.5 et 35. Mich as3plus. But it looks good.

That does look good.


Where does it rub? The back?


Since I am using the stock blades and plan to add spacers, would the spacer size get around that?

I have two 15mm and two 10mm spacers here from my previous MQB car, so I will just order another pair of what I decide will work. I could even utilise different spacers to effectively have a staggered setup again surely?

[Bezlar]

That does look good.


Where does it rub? The back?


Since I am using the stock blades and plan to add spacers, would the spacer size get around that?

I have two 15mm and two 10mm spacers here from my previous MQB car, so I will just order another pair of what I decide will work. I could even utilise different spacers to effectively have a staggered setup again surely?

Yes rear. I think it only hits the little blades on the rear quarters.


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[javbomb]

Alright, so just thinking out loud and looking at what is actually going on with stock setup.

Here is the stock staggered setup Front vs Rear wheel layout. Assuming the drive shaft width is the same front vs back (I dont know if it is - I do know the fenders are wider though)




For Front, Stock vs 245 + 10mm spacers. The Michelin actually has 0.2" wider tread width than the 255 Pirelli.




For Rear, Stock vs 245 + 10mm Spacers.




245/35 Square Setup + 10mm Front and 12mm Rear spacers:




Seems to me like 10+12mm spacers might be the way to go here?

Thoughts?

[Potatohead_RS3]

The factory tyres are shithouse. I don't like that the tread-width at the front is equiv of pretty much a 235 Michelin. My tyres are worn out on the edges already, I have to change mine if I want to take corners without sliding out, so I am at a crossroads. I definitely would not be changing out 4 good tyres I know that much, if the front tyres on my car were good I wouldn't do anything at all.

You also have guys like Jason Fieldling pretty much dominating Autocross with non-staggered tyres, I just don't seem convinced that it must be done to have a good handling car. Adding a rear sway bar and things might also help a ton to dial out that understeer.

I am not totally against going staggered with the Michelins though. Suppose I could do 245/235 Michelin staggered. I was about to sink $5,500 AUD on new rims and tyre combo but its just not worth it with some other stuff going on in my life, I think I will just add some spacers to my blades and change to good tyres.

Again, I am REALLY convinced my hypo TC light blinking has to do with the rolling diameters fighting each other of the staggered setup. My haldex is definitely working perfectly, its just silly in a straight line at 40km/hr in 3rd and I put my foot down on smooth road the TC light goes a bit nuts sometimes and the car bogs. Put it in Sport TC mode and never ever do I have a hint of TC trying to ruin my day. I suppose it could be unrelated, but 2% rolling difference is still a difference. My question is why to the engineers feel they should have differing tyre profiles on front vs rear, forget 255/235 for a second, why is the rolling diameter fighting each other in a 4WD car?

It’s not fighting really, but it is possible the TC light being triggered is from the shorter front tire, absolutely. I drive around in TC sport quite often so I don’t really care, but in regular mode I do notice it sometimes, but never more than just a light coming on I have never had the car actually bog. There is always going to be wiggle room in the setup, even with the same tire size people that don’t rotate the front will wear faster, or someone will just replace two tires, etc, so they need some room there.

Profile on staggered setup is always lower on the wider tire save for a few specific cases. If they stuck with 255/35 on the front the front tire would be a lot taller than the rear. The ideal size would be 265/30 and why they didn’t do that, I’d have to ask the guys that put it together. Probably worried about tramlining and mileage among other things. I don’t think 8.5” wheel is good for that size anyway and I bet 9’s were getting too aggressive for them.

If you add grip in the rear the car will understeer more, that’s pretty obvious. You can perhaps offset it with sway bar or other methods but that has negative side effects as well. Why you want to add understeer just to take it back away another way seems counter-intuitive.

[comingabriel]

In the past, I think their is a tolerence btw wheels of ~3%, is that still true?

[Potatohead_RS3]

In the past, I think their is a tolerence btw wheels of ~3%, is that still true?

Depends on the car. Typical rule of thumb for AWD is 2%, but there really aren’t that many staggered AWD setups in the real world when you consider Subarus and CUV’s and trucks (4WD) etc. I don’t really know that the limits of Gen 5 Haldex are. In fact if the “easy trigger” TC light is because of tire diameters and the vehicle is believing the front is spinning that really has nothing to do with the AWD programming and more to do with TC/ESP programming.

[comingabriel]

I "think" the haldex on the mk4 r32, mk5 R32 snd mk6 R had at least 3%, gotta look up the haldex info tomorrow on the current gen and maybe this specific car.

[comingabriel]

Try this site for info

https://www.ramtech.se/

Or talk to HPA Motorsport, United Motorsport

[noswalz]

Does the front need to be 255/30? I was thinking of doing 255/35 with the pilot sport tires. Figured it would give a little bit more cushion over bumps. How much would it really affect handling...?

[TZilla]

Again, I am REALLY convinced my hypo TC light blinking has to do with the rolling diameters fighting each other of the staggered setup. My haldex is definitely working perfectly, its just silly in a straight line at 40km/hr in 3rd and I put my foot down on smooth road the TC light goes a bit nuts sometimes and the car bogs. Put it in Sport TC mode and never ever do I have a hint of TC trying to ruin my day. I suppose it could be unrelated, but 2% rolling difference is still a difference. My question is why to the engineers feel they should have differing tyre profiles on front vs rear, forget 255/235 for a second, why is the rolling diameter fighting each other in a 4WD car?

Your theory might not be accurate. I'm running a square tire setup and several times I have forgotten to turn off TC especially after having used cruise, I get the light and it pulls power under WOT enough to make me realize I should turn it off including in 3rd or 4th gear going straight. Seems like a bug with the TC or maybe it is by (poor) design to limit power.

[Quattro617]

Hey guys,

Wondering who has replaced the staggered Pirellis for Michelins, and what size did you go with on the STOCK Blade wheels?

I am thinking of going square 245/35/R19.

The Michelins will be 0.2" wider tread in the front than the 255 Pirellis it looks like. And 0.8" wider tread in the rear than the 235's.

My 255 Pirellis are worn to hell on the outsides due to my mistake of running them at about 35psi for too long and driving really hard. So the tire is just utter shit now and the car slides around roundabouts and corners if I put my foot down. No way I am going to buy two new OEM tyres. Only done 8000KMS.

I also have my TC light going off at stupid times occasionally and I have a feeling the almost 2% rolling circumference difference of the staggered wheel setup is to blame (my haldex is fine - the car is a rocketship in TC Sport mode), so that's also something the square setup would aim to fix hopefully.

Also looking forward to a few mm less wheel arch gap in the front.

Anyone got pics of the Michelins on the blades with stock suspension?

Didn't bother reading the rest of the thread so sorry if it got answered already. I'm currently running 245/35 PS4's on the staggered OEM wheels with stock suspension. No rubbing. Drives fine. I can post pictures later tonight if desired.

[Swat413]

I am running Michellin Sport 4's, square 245/35 on 19x9's and i have had the TC light come on when i get into it. I now, first thing every time i drive, put TC into sport mode and never have that problem. Also i am fully lowered on MSS track front, sport rear, and have no rubbing unless i bottom out pretty hard.

[Bezlar]

That does look good.


Where does it rub? The back?


Since I am using the stock blades and plan to add spacers, would the spacer size get around that?

I have two 15mm and two 10mm spacers here from my previous MQB car, so I will just order another pair of what I decide will work. I could even utilise different spacers to effectively have a staggered setup again surely?

Yes. I think it’s only rubbing the little blades.


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[javbomb]

So I put on the wheel spacers I had yesterday just for a look.

I put the 15mm's on the rear and the 10mm's on the front, and the car looks excellent.

However, the handling was most certainly and obviously changed for the worse. The turn in was definitely more lazy and slightly disconnected feeling with faster direction changes. Its really weird. I think this has taught me that I dont want to mess up the dynamics too much with regards to the width of the front track in relation to the rear since with this change the rear track is wider than the front, and the difference I found was quite profound!

Here is with the 15mm spacers at the rear.



Today I am going to flip them around so the front has 15mm and the rears 10mm.

Reading up on front track setups and its effects, it seems like this should have the least amount of under-steer and the most aggressive turn in.



If the 15mm's seem to fit fine in the front, since they worked fine in the rear, I might order another pair of 15mm spacers and have those installed all around since I really did like where the wheels were sitting.

[javbomb]

Didn't bother reading the rest of the thread so sorry if it got answered already. I'm currently running 245/35 PS4's on the staggered OEM wheels with stock suspension. No rubbing. Drives fine. I can post pictures later tonight if desired.

I would love to see some pics thanks. Are you running any wheel spacers?

[Potatohead_RS3]

So I put on the wheel spacers I had yesterday just for a look.

I put the 15mm's on the rear and the 10mm's on the front, and the car looks excellent.

However, the handling was most certainly and obviously changed for the worse. The turn in was definitely more lazy and slightly disconnected feeling with faster direction changes. Its really weird. I think this has taught me that I dont want to mess up the dynamics too much with regards to the width of the front track in relation to the rear since with this change the rear track is wider than the front, and the difference I found was quite profound!

Here is with the 15mm spacers at the rear.



Today I am going to flip them around so the front has 15mm and the rears 10mm.

Reading up on front track setups and its effects, it seems like this should have the least amount of under-steer and the most aggressive turn in.



If the 15mm's seem to fit fine in the front, since they worked fine in the rear, I might order another pair of 15mm spacers and have those installed all around since I really did like where the wheels were sitting.

I was going to post something last night but I figured you might be sick of me, lol. Spacers always look nice but they reduce the scrub radius on FWD based cars, and they can really affect the handling in a negative way.

[javbomb]

I was going to post something last night but I figured you might be sick of me, lol. Spacers always look nice but they reduce the scrub radius on FWD based cars, and they can really affect the handling in a negative way.

Does changing the wheels then also not affect the scrub radius?

[javbomb]

So I just flipped the spacers around, 15mm in front, 10mm in rear.

Went for a drive again around my local 'race circuit' and the difference from yesterday was night and day!

So much better, the car had more grip in the front end, steering was much better too than yesterday, felt more planted in corners.

Also seems like 15mm works in the front end too, so might get another pair of 15mm spacers and call it a day there. The 10mm on the rear looks a bit sad now, definitely think 15mm looked better there, so thats that probably.

245 square with that setup should be good. The 35 profile in the rear now that its pushed further out has a good wheel arch gap as far as I am concerned, I can barely get two fingers in the gap there. I definitely dont think I would want any more drop than that since the car has to stay usable with speed bumps and relatively steep driveways around these parts, so going to 35 profile on the front should give me 5mm less fender gap and also raise the front end 5mm so I think that's a win, even less chance of scraping, and less wheel arch gap.

The question is though, is 245 square a good combo, or should I keep some semblance of staggered sizes? 245/35 in the front and 235/35 in the rear?

A few pics. Keep in mind the rear wheel would be pushed another 5mm out, it did look much better with the 15mm spacer back there.

[Potatohead_RS3]

Does changing the wheels then also not affect the scrub radius?

It does, but because aftermarket wheels are typically also wider, the effect is much less.

So for example a stock 19x8.5” +46 wheel vs a 19x9” +42 aftermarket wheel, the aftermarket wheel sits 10mm further out but also 2mm further in, so the actual centerline of the wheel is only moving 4mm out. With the spacer it’s moving 15mm out.

[Quattro617]

I would love to see some pics thanks. Are you running any wheel spacers?

No spacers. I'll post a pic after work.

[Canvasoso]

So this thread has me confused. I have a staggered setup and want to keep it that way. However, I want to replace my 10,000 mile old Pzeros with Michellin's PS4's. If I get the same size fitment as the current Pirelli's am I going to be concerned with rubbing? I understand that even though the are the same 255/30/R19 and 235/35/R19 staggered sizes the Michellin's may be a bit wider, but they should keep the stagger proportions the same as the Pirelli.

[Potatohead_RS3]

So this thread has me confused. I have a staggered setup and want to keep it that way. However, I want to replace my 10,000 mile old Pzeros with Michellin's PS4's. If I get the same size fitment as the current Pirelli's am I going to be concerned with rubbing? I understand that even though the are the same 255/30/R19 and 235/35/R19 staggered sizes the Michellin's may be a bit wider, but they should keep the stagger proportions the same as the Pirelli.

They are wider, but they will not rub with stock wheels unless the car is lowered a bunch.

[Canvasoso]

They are wider, but they will not rub with stock wheels unless the car is lowered a bunch.

Thanks, that's good to hear. Are they also taller since they nhave to keep proportions the same? I want to keep the same "tire rotations per mile" as it has currently. Once you go to taller tires changes power delivery and throws speedometer off as well.

[Potatohead_RS3]

Thanks, that's good to hear. Are they also taller since they nhave to keep proportions the same? I want to keep the same "tire rotations per mile" as it has currently. Once you go to taller tires changes power delivery and throws speedometer off as well.

They are essentially the same diameter as the stock tires, within about .1". The front tire is slightly shorter with the factory sizing, this is normal.

[Canvasoso]

They are essentially the same diameter as the stock tires, within about .1". The front tire is slightly shorter with the factory sizing, this is normal.

Thanks for that. My front tires are already worn out on the inside and my rears are almost like new. Thinking of making the switch to PS4's and ditching the PZeros all together.

[Potatohead_RS3]

Thanks for that. My front tires are already worn out on the inside and my rears are almost like new. Thinking of making the switch to PS4's and ditching the PZeros all together.

Or find a set of take-off Pirellis for the front and buy the Michelins next time. Either way.

[Canvasoso]

Or find a set of take-off Pirellis for the front and buy the Michelins next time. Either way.

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'll check the classified and see if anyone is selling their front take-offs.

Funny that I go through 2 sets or rears on my 96 993 before I have to change all 4 tires as it eats the rears in about 8K miles. Seems like now I'll be doing the same but in reverse with the RS3. LOL.

[theskunk]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'll check the classified and see if anyone is selling their front take-offs.

Funny that I go through 2 sets or rears on my 96 993 before I have to change all 4 tires as it eats the rears in about 8K miles. Seems like now I'll be doing the same but in reverse with the RS3. LOL.

Where are you located? I’ve got 5/32 left on my fronts, and they are coming off after tomorrow’s track session - if I’m close and it’s worth it, I’ll make you a hell of a deal.

I’m ditching for PS4S in the next few weeks.


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[Canvasoso]

Where are you located? I’ve got 5/32 left on my fronts, and they are coming off after tomorrow’s track session - if I’m close and it’s worth it, I’ll make you a hell of a deal.

I’m ditching for PS4S in the next few weeks.


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Thanks for the offer. I'm in Atlanta, but sounds like your fronts are almost as worn as mine, specially after your track session. LOL. Would like to get take-offs from someone that only had a few miles on them, or I may just get new.

Which sizes of PS4S are you getting? Same as you have now? Or going square setup?

[theskunk]

Thanks for the offer. I'm in Atlanta, but sounds like your fronts are almost as worn as mine, specially after your track session. LOL. Would like to get take-offs from someone that only had a few miles on them, or I may just get new.

Which sizes of PS4S are you getting? Same as you have now? Or going square setup?

Planning to stick with factory. Kinda wish they made a 265 30 19 for the nose, but I hear it’ll be night and day.

Zeroing out the toe in the rear really helped the car rotate yesterday at the track. My issues are likely more about brakes than tires at this point anyways.


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