Interesting DP/FMIC dyno results on ethanol

[TTRSleeper]

While looking at some dyno sheets, I came across a couple interesting charts from Iroz Motorsport.

This first one is of ns2g8tr's RS3. On this day he tested the IE intake. The 487.1 was with the Iroz/CC ethanol tune, Iroz FMIC, catless Iroz DP/mid pipes and a stock airbox. He then installed the IE intake while his car was still strapped to the dyno and put down 509.8 HP. I'm not sure of his exact ethanol content but he did list E70 in his 1/4 mile submission. ~E70 is consistent with what other Stage 2 Iroz/CC cars run since the fuel system is nearly maxed out between the ethanol and presumably the extra airflow from the stage 2 hardware.



Now here's an RS3 with all stock hardware and just a Stage 1 E85 tune from Iroz/CC. Same exact dyno, same correction method. As you can see, peak HP is 486, only 1HP away from the Stage 2 car which had the downpipe, mid pipes and FMIC! If you look carefully, you can see that the Stage 2 car does have a slight advantage in the mid range, but from about 5K on up to redline, the two are pretty darn close. It would be interesting to know what the ethanol content of this car was. Was it E70? Or was it full E85? I'm thinking it was full E85 but would like clarification on that.


It appears as if the HP jump you get in going from E70 to E85 is just about enough to wipe out any of the gains one would see from adding a downpipe, midpipe and FMIC.

Moral of the story: Going Stage 1 and full E85 sounds like the best bang for your buck. If you're running ethanol and go from Stage 1 to Stage 2 by adding a DP, mid pipes and FMIC, your car may not get any faster. Now of course the FMIC should have other benefits, such as better consistency and more power when there's little to no cool down in between runs.

This could help to explain how APR was able to run that pretty impressive 10.5 with all OEM hardware...

[javbomb]

You have added a TTRS dyno sheet showing way lower numbers, I think you attached the wrong file.

[silvino]

Keep in mind that running that power level through the restrictive parts also would probably put more bad wear on the car. That's another downside to trying to save money. I also came to this conclusion a couple of weeks ago based on different/track data.

[TTRSleeper]

You have added a TTRS dyno sheet showing way lower numbers, I think you attached the wrong file.

Thanks, I just fixed it.

Keep in mind that running that power level through the restrictive parts also would probably put more bad wear on the car. That's another downside to trying to save money. I also came to this conclusion a couple of weeks ago based on different/track data.

Wouldn't necessarily put wear on the car, just wouldn't make the same power due to the restriction. But even that's going off the assumption that the OEM parts are actually restrictive which may not actually be true, at least not at these power levels. Everyone always thinks because a part is OEM that an aftermarket replacement must be better. Sometimes the OEM hardware just isn't very restrictive, especially this day in age. It's not like 20 years ago where a lot of cars didn't even come from the factory with cold air intakes. Nowadays just about every new car sold has a true "cold air" intake.

[silvino]

It'll put more wear based on the heat that gets trapped due to the stock exhaust system.

Also more than a single gear pull on a Dyno (more load for longer) will be worse on a car with no upgraded IC.

[silvino]

Forgot to add that 1 dyno pull isn't as good as some track samples I was able to compare which you can draw better conclusions from.

[TTRSleeper]

Which track samples are you referring to?

Forgot to add that 1 dyno pull isn't as good as some track samples I was able to compare which you can draw better conclusions from.

[S3DUDE]

^^ what tune did you had? To me in order to make a fair assessment you would have to compare the same car with both tunes on the dyno and a few drag strip passes. You had Unitronic? unless you did a back to back test between UNI and APR I wouldn't speculate. I still want to see a third party RS3 owner running a E-85 and a 93 oct APR tune at the track.

[saxon]

^^ what tune did you had? To me in order to make a fair assessment you would have to compare the same car with both tunes on the dyno and a few drag strip passes. You had Unitronic? unless you did a back to back test between UNI and APR I wouldn't speculate. I still want to see a third party RS3 owner running a E-85 and a 93 oct APR tune at the track.

the stage 1 apr e85 results ive seen on a car with fmic is around 129mph traps and high 10's

[TTRSleeper]

Do you have a link to that? I've heard of the run but haven't seen it posted anywhere. Thanks.

the stage 1 apr e85 results ive seen on a car with fmic is around 129mph traps and high 10's

[silvino]

Some of the stuff I have access to isn't public, sorry. Dig around and compare though and you'll see.

[speeddemon69]

https://youtu.be/mjEzLIGeuzA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TTRSleeper]

That RS3 has a full interior and APR Stage 1 E85 tune. It turned almost exactly the same ET and 60' that APR ran with a full interior on the same exact tune. APR went 10.769 with a 1.66 60' with a full interior.

The only difference is USP had the Milltek DP, Milltek midpipe, Forge FMIC and K&N drop in filter whereas APR had all OEM hardware.

It doesn't look like those hardware mods do much of anything for this engine, at least not at these power levels.

https://youtu.be/mjEzLIGeuzA


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cbhoy24]

Personally, I don’t think the APR Stage 2 E85 will yield much if anything at all in terms of extra power over Stage 1 E85

The benefit of the Stage 2 file will be seen on 93 octane. If you think of the Stage 1 E85 file maxing everything out on the standard turbo (fuelling included) then how can it get any better with Stage 2 hardware fitted? There’s no more boost or timing to add to the file, it’s alrwady been done under the Stage 1.

The Stage 2 93 file will be more aggressive than the Stage 1 93 file but less aggressive than the Stage 1 E85 file.

Probably the reason why APR did not release a Stage 2 93/E85 file.

If they do manage to find some gains on Stage 2 E85 then I doubt they will be very much. The 93 Stage 2 file though should see a good jump with intake/intercooler and DP. In addition, they will probably increase torque with a TCU tweak.

[TTRSleeper]

You may very well be right. Has anyone with an APR Stage 1 E85 tune but stock downpipe and intercooler ran at that same Crail Raceway? I'd be curious to see how they run relative to your TTRS and your buddy's RS3.

[comingabriel]

If E85 is close to maxed out in power, then 93 won't surpass it.
Historically, APR Stage 1 HO and Stage 2 HO 93 aren't much different.
APR Stage 1 HO 93oct 370hp/383tq, Stage 2 HO 93oct 387hp/409tq.
Been in an R with both.
It "felt" pretty much the same, but stage 2 HO felt scary fast for only 387hp/409tq.
Each time, car limped, lol.

[TTRSleeper]

I don't think he's saying 93 will surpass ethanol in output. He's just saying there's more power left on the table on 93 octane due to the hardware changes and no fuel system limitation like there is on ethanol. So while Stage 2 E85 may show little gain over stage 1 E85, there may be an appreciable gain going from 93 stage 1 to 93 stage 2.

If E85 is close to maxed out in power, then 93 won't surpass it.
Historically, APR Stage 1 HO and Stage 2 HO 93 aren't much different.
APR Stage 1 HO 93oct 370hp/383tq, Stage 2 HO 93oct 387hp/409tq.
Been in an R with both.
It "felt" pretty much the same, but stage 2 HO felt scary fast for only 387hp/409tq.
Each time, car limped, lol.

[comingabriel]

Still, APR historically pushes Stage 1+ close to Stage 2+ in power, as shown with the 7R example, and on 93oct.

Don't see them pushing a Stage 2+ with upgraded fueling, unless they go BT. But?

[ns2g8tr]

On my dyno pulls that are referenced I was on E68. I normally run right at 70, but the E85 in Vegas comes out at 68. Makes it easy for fill ups I guess. There is no way I would try running this car tuned without an upgraded FMIC. As far as trying to compare two cars even though the same dyno, you’ll always have variations.

[PeteJ]

One thing to note about running E-Anything in a car is the the intake air temperature is measured BEFORE the ethanol has had a chance to cool the charge down. I've seen countless cars (My drag car included) at the track and events such as DragWeek running E85 and IAT's over 275 degrees (max reading on the IAT sensor) with no issues at all. Tuning a car running Alcohol (either Ethanol or Methanol) requires a bit of a different approach and the only way we have found to really tell what is going on is to run an EGT probe and see what is going on in the exhaust. I have been shocked how low the EGTs can get with IAT readings that were off the chart just by changing the amount of fuel and timing (or how high they can get if you do it wrong). This is why having a tuner that knows what they are doing becomes critical, relying on a dyno sheet without knowing how the tune was developed is not something I'm willing to bet on.

[TTRSleeper]

Here's another example. On USP's dyno, the owner's RS3 put down 504whp with an APR Stage 1 E85 tune, Milltek DP and midpipes, Forge FMIC and a K&N drop in filter.


Another RS3 put down 508whp on Eurocode's dyno with the same APR Stage 1 E85 tune. Despite having a stock downpipe and stock midpipes, it still made 4whp more than USP's RS3.


Now I know somebody is going to point out that these are two different dynos and that you can't compare the two. I'd usually agree with that. However, check out the two "stock" numbers on each of the graphs above. The USP car put down 363whp stock on 93 octane and the Eurocode put down 348 stock although it was on 91 octane. When you compare these stock numbers and put them in perspective based on the octane used, it sounds like the two dynos are reading very close to one another.

This is another example that an aftermarket downpipe and mid pipes may not add any appreciable power to a stock turbo 2.5T that has been tuned for ethanol.

[saxon]

Here's another example. On USP's dyno, the owner's RS3 put down 504whp with an APR Stage 1 E85 tune, Milltek DP and midpipes, Forge FMIC and a K&N drop in filter.


Another RS3 put down 508whp on Eurocode's dyno with the same APR Stage 1 E85 tune. Despite having a stock downpipe and stock midpipes, it still made 4whp more than USP's RS3.


Now I know somebody is going to point out that these are two different dynos and that you can't compare the two. I'd usually agree with that. However, check out the two "stock" numbers on each of the graphs above. The USP car put down 363whp stock on 93 octane and the Eurocode put down 348 stock although it was on 91 octane. When you compare these stock numbers and put them in perspective based on the octane used, it sounds like the two dynos are reading very close to one another.

This is another example that an aftermarket downpipe and mid pipes may not add any appreciable power to a stock turbo 2.5T that has been tuned for ethanol.

i agree with everything you are saying except the "This is another example that an aftermarket downpipe and mid pipes may not add any appreciable power to a stock turbo 2.5T that has been tuned for ethanol."

this imo is a perfect example of how a tune meant for stock hardware (boost, a/f , timing) will not have any gains. You have to realize that its a load based ecu that once it hits its targets it pretty much holds the car at that power level.

that same car tuned for the downpipe (fmic dont make power, but help maintain it) will make more power.. ... how much is unknown at this point for apr, unitronic etc. the only tuner releasing numbers for stage 2 and 1 for ethanol is Iroz and their power figures show about 30 hp more for a stage 2 car

[TTRSleeper]

i agree with everything you are saying except the "This is another example that an aftermarket downpipe and mid pipes may not add any appreciable power to a stock turbo 2.5T that has been tuned for ethanol."

this imo is a perfect example of how a tune meant for stock hardware (boost, a/f , timing) will not have any gains. You have to realize that its a load based ecu that once it hits its targets it pretty much holds the car at that power level.

that same car tuned for the downpipe (fmic dont make power, but help maintain it) will make more power.. ... how much is unknown at this point for apr, unitronic etc. the only tuner releasing numbers for stage 2 and 1 for ethanol is Iroz and their power figures show about 30 hp more for a stage 2 car

I think you may be confused. My first post was comparing a car with an Iroz/CC Stage 2 tune with an Iroz/CC Stage 1 tune. The Stage 2 tune is tuned specifically for the DP and midpipes. However despite that it still didn't really make any more power from 5K to 7K compared to the Stage 1 car.

On 91 or 93 octane there may be an appreciable gain from the Stage 2 hardware and tune but on ethanol it doesn't appear like it makes much of a difference.

[comingabriel]

Then, CC/Iroz need to re-examine their tune/work.

Catless or HF cat DP and IC at stage 2 should be significantly more than stage 1 without said parts.

[TTRSleeper]

Then, CC/Iroz need to re-examine their tune/work.

Catless or HF cat DP and IC at stage 2 should be significantly more than stage 1 without said parts.

But what if the stock downpipe already flow very very well? And if the factory cats are already what some people might refer to as "high flow" cats?

[comingabriel]

The cat on the DP immediate to the turbo, is sooooo restrictive, iirc 1800cpsi (can't recall exactly), that stage 1+ .cannot be tuned for more boost, due to backpressure equalling exhaust pressure, per a tuner's info/experience. Why Stage 2 is needed (a HF (300cpsi or less) or catless DP, preferrably with a good IC) to make much more power, like from high 11 to low 10 sec power. The two cats on the dual midpipes that people needlessly remove, Stage 1+ or less, because it won't help flow at all, due to that rediculously high cpsi cat by the turbo.

[TTRSleeper]

The cat on the DP immediate to the turbo, is sooooo restrictive, iirc 1800cpsi (can't recall exactly), that stage 1+ .cannot be tuned for more boost, due to backpressure equalling exhaust pressure, per a tuner's info/experience. Why Stage 2 is needed (a HF (300cpsi or less) or catless DP, preferrably with a good IC) to make much more power, like from high 11 to low 10 sec power. The two cats on the dual midpipes that people needlessly remove, Stage 1+ or less, because it won't help flow at all, due to that rediculously high cpsi cat by the turbo.

I really really doubt the stock cat is 1800cpsi. I'd like to know your source.

If the stock downpipe and cat is "sooooo restrictive" then perhaps you or your tuner buddy can explain how an otherwise bone stock RS3 with just a tune and ethanol can go from 348whp to 508whp, a gain of an incredible 160whp. How exactly is that possible if the downpipe is so restrictive? The stage 1 E85 tune is already pretty well maxed out in terms of boost and the stock fueling. The "stage 1+" doesn't apply to ethanol and is silly even for gasoline tunes.

[hckymstr19]

Does anyone know exactly what is needed, fueling wise, to take advantage of full e85 on the stage 2? I dont think it's been specifically talked about, like just injectors or fuel pump as well? Is there one specific weak point?

[javbomb]

I really really doubt the stock cat is 1800cpsi. I'd like to know your source.

If the stock downpipe and cat is "sooooo restrictive" then perhaps you or your tuner buddy can explain how an otherwise bone stock RS3 with just a tune and ethanol can go from 348whp to 508whp, a gain of an incredible 160whp. How exactly is that possible if the downpipe is so restrictive? The stage 1 E85 tune is already pretty well maxed out in terms of boost and the stock fueling. The "stage 1+" doesn't apply to ethanol and is silly even for gasoline tunes.

To be fair, a large portion of that is going from pump gas to e85...

Comparing 93 vs 93 with tune gains is a better comparison.

I would think the stock DP is more like 800cel.

[TTRSleeper]

To be fair, a large portion of that is going from pump gas to e85...

Comparing 93 vs 93 with tune gains is a better comparison.

I would think the stock DP is more like 800cel.

No doubt, but the point remains the same: If the factory downpipe/cat was so restrictive, you wouldn't even be able to get those insane gains with ethanol.

[TTRSleeper]

Does anyone know exactly what is needed, fueling wise, to take advantage of full e85 on the stage 2? I dont think it's been specifically talked about, like just injectors or fuel pump as well? Is there one specific weak point?

The LPFP and the 5 MPI injectors. But I doubt any tuner will offer an "off the shelf" Stage 2 stock turbo tune for full E85 and upgraded fueling components. It's just not something people will spend the money on. The parts and labor to install them simply won't justify the gains. The difference from E70 to E85 is relatively small in the grand scheme of things.

[PeteJ]

Does anyone know exactly what is needed, fueling wise, to take advantage of full e85 on the stage 2? I dont think it's been specifically talked about, like just injectors or fuel pump as well? Is there one specific weak point?

To fully take advantage of all that true E85 can offer a fuel pump and/or injector upgrade would be needed. I know that several tuners have found the right balance but are, rightfully so, not broadcasting what they have learned...they are just working on releasing/updating their tunes.

[comingabriel]

I really really doubt the stock cat is 1800cpsi. I'd like to know your source.

If the stock downpipe and cat is "sooooo restrictive" then perhaps you or your tuner buddy can explain how an otherwise bone stock RS3 with just a tune and ethanol can go from 348whp to 508whp, a gain of an incredible 160whp. How exactly is that possible if the downpipe is so restrictive? The stage 1 E85 tune is already pretty well maxed out in terms of boost and the stock fueling. The "stage 1+" doesn't apply to ethanol and is silly even for gasoline tunes.

I am Stage 1+ with at least 500 chp, with just 93 octane.
Why can't I make much more?
Stage 2 (catless or a HF DP is needed, IC is basically a necessity) can easily do more than 500bhp on 93 octane, so what exactly are you asking?
People doing 9-10's on a stock DP?

[comingabriel]

To fully take advantage of all that true E85 can offer a fuel pump and/or injector upgrade would be needed. I know that several tuners have found the right balance but are, rightfully so, not broadcasting what they have learned...they are just working on releasing/updating their tunes.

Yes, to get the most out of E85, you need things to make moar squirtage.

[TTRSleeper]

Paging NYEuroTuner aka Malaka Motorsports, your expertise is needed here too.

[URHank]

I skimmed through a lot here, but let me give some tips for interpreting data:

Dyno's are instruments, but instruments with variables. Delta's on the same day on the same tire, at the same pressure on the same grade oil is useful. Ask anybody that has ever asked for month ago overlays to their current setup, I am always cautious to remind them of the pitfalls of that.

For example: my RS3 on Hankook v12s makes 705whp at 34psi air pressure. Drop the air pressure to 22psi that we race that tire at, we lose ~2% of power around 15whp. We put a stick DR2 on the rollers, it tanks almost 40whp. I recently had a IMS850 car on snow tires, I thought the engine was hurt because it only was making 640whp. Put the hankooks off my Rs3 on, and bam, 700whp first pull. It actually went 9s full weight on that same file.

Tim dyno'ed his car on 275 front tires on his Rs3. There is more rolling resistance there. It costs some power. So when we are over here splitting hairs over 1-2% month to month dynos, realize dynos are day to day tools. What I do know, Tims car trapped 134.5 mph with that 510whp graph posted above.

As for the stock downpipe to after market downpipe. Our data shows on e85 the stock downpipe can make a ton of power. We do ~480-485whp vs 510-520whp stage 2 cars see. The EGTs are ~75F higher, backpressure ~5psi higher, but the e85 masks the back pressure and puts up with the EGT. It helps that e85 is able to get to full ideal timing, so overall EGTs are lower anyway. I think somebody would be a fool to run a stock downpipe car in a half mile event, or do 197mph speed runs like I know some have done with our software.

Hope that helps!

[TTRSleeper]

As for the stock downpipe to after market downpipe. Our data shows on e85 the stock downpipe can make a ton of power. We do ~480-485whp vs 510-520whp stage 2 cars see. The EGTs are ~75F higher, backpressure ~5psi higher, but the e85 masks the back pressure and puts up with the EGT. It helps that e85 is able to get to full ideal timing, so overall EGTs are lower anyway. I think somebody would be a fool to run a stock downpipe car in a half mile event, or do 197mph speed runs like I know some have done with our software.

Thanks but can you please clarify what hardware the 510-520whp Stage 2 cars have? It's more than just a downpipe right? They have the IE intake too right? So 480-485whp Stage 1 vs 510-520whp Stage 2 isn't an apples to apples comparison of a stock downpipe to aftermarket downpipe right? Since it often includes the intake and FMIC too.

I'm specifically looking at what the aftermarket downpipe does power wise on a fairly well maxed out stock turbo car running ethanol. Everything I've seen shows it does very very little. Can you show us a dyno graph for a stage 2 car with a stock intake running ethanol? The one of Tim's car which I posted shows only 487.5whp. Is the 510-520whp you're referring to only achieved with a better intake?

[DarkSideGTI]

Also keep in mind that the stock FMIC might do well for one pull, but it will heatsoak and you will lose power on subsequent pulls. A proper FMIC upgrade will lose less HP with each subsequent pull.

[Burningcoals]

Thanks but can you please clarify what hardware the 510-520whp Stage 2 cars have? It's more than just a downpipe right? They have the IE intake too right? So 480-485whp Stage 1 vs 510-520whp Stage 2 isn't an apples to apples comparison of a stock downpipe to aftermarket downpipe right? Since it often includes the intake and FMIC too.

I'm specifically looking at what the aftermarket downpipe does power wise on a fairly well maxed out stock turbo car running ethanol. Everything I've seen shows it does very very little. Can you show us a dyno graph for a stage 2 car with a stock intake running ethanol? The one of Tim's car which I posted shows only 487.5whp. Is the 510-520whp you're referring to only achieved with a better intake?

Lots of variables. Just remember unless upgraded fueling on the stage 2 car, most cars are running e70 max or even less because the extra air/fuel is to much for stock fueling. APR will most definitely require injectors to be upgraded when they release their stage 2 e85, since they do not like mixing, I am sure it will be part of a kit that will allow full e85 on stage 2.

Stock turbo is near max around 500ish whp. But with downpipe, FMIC and e70 you will gain MPH up top and it will be safer. To really tell what max would be for stage 2, would be for upgraded fueling full e85 on stock turbo.

Funny part about e85 stage 1. It is like perfect storm, combination of parts will allow you to run e85 and get about 90% of what is capable with the stock turbo. But I doubt heat recovery is very good. However due to e85 cooling properties, the stage 1 e85 tune might be safer than either 91 or 93 tunes pulling a bunch of timing and dealing with big heatsoak. Minues like Hank says, not recommend to do 1/2 mile 200mph runs.

[URHank]

The IE intake makes more power than the stock intake because it allows for ~100mb more boost pressure up top wit hthe turbo at full tilt. Everybody is running the turbo wide open on e85 from what I have seen. That extra 100mb, albeit very hot air, is still more volume. It will make 2.5-3% more power to any stock inlet baseline.

The downpipe is the same deal. They make more boost with less heat and better spool. They account for ~3-4% additional power from what I have seen over a stage 1 car with an intercooler.

I wouldn't get too hung up on dynos from other people, different cars, different conditions on different dynos. Its why we always say "what does your dyno sheet trap". A dyno operator can make almost any car look like a hero on the rollers if he has an agenda to do so. Take it to the track, see what real life physics adds up to. Aquire data, improve upon it the next time. This approach is what has us going 10.3 and nearly 135mph. Dynos try to simulate the road, but they never quite do it. Not saying dynos are unneeded, id die without mine, but they don't' guarantee a time down the track.