K04-064 Upgrade compressor wheel

[marto7]

Hello.Does somebody know for a good upgrade for the K04-064 turbo from the 2.0tfsi S3 ? I have one on my car but i want to upgrade it for more HP.I saw on ebay upgrade compressor wheels from Mamba and Kinugawa but dont know if its really efective upgrade or only an advertising.Also if its good upgrade is it bolt on and only need balance, or i need my turbo to be machined for bigger wheel ? Thanks

[Joshlc1988]

Turbo lab has upgraded wheels and also upgraded thrust bearings. Good prices too

[marto7]

What HP can I expect more than now ? Now my turbo is on 1.5bar boost and i want more power but without new remap.Will the bigger wheel make a good difference or isnt worth it ?

[Dat Black Kid]

I don't know the gains, and I know someone will correct me on this, but I researched that it's best to get a turbine wheel that closely matches the compressor wheel. Turbos work better with an over size turbo shaft, than an over sized compressor wheel. As for blades, you can go with a 9 or 11, turbine blade, which would net you more air flow to pass through the turbine.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

If you're only going for HP gains get a Stage 1 ECU tune, HFC and exhaust, and stick with the K04. Other option, bigger turbo.

[dalmation53]

What HP can I expect more than now ? Now my turbo is on 1.5bar boost and i want more power but without new remap.Will the bigger wheel make a good difference or isnt worth it ?

Turbo labs has a slightly bigger compressor wheel i think is $500 for this mod. Honestly if you get atleast 40hp is worth it. I'm just making up a random number. But i plan on doing this but for my stock k03.

Sent from my G3313 using Audizine mobile app

[Dat Black Kid]

Turbo labs has a slightly bigger compressor wheel i think is $500 for this mod. Honestly if you get atleast 40hp is worth it. I'm just making up a random number. But i plan on doing this but for my stock k03.

Sent from my G3313 using Audizine mobile app

Educate me on this. If the compressor wheel is bigger than the turbine shaft, wouldn't that cause an ilregular flow from the compressor and into the smaller turbine?

[EvolutionArmory]

I don't know the gains, and I know someone will correct me on this, but I researched that it's best to get a turbine wheel that closely matches the compressor wheel. Turbos work better with an over size turbo shaft, than an over sized compressor wheel. As for blades, you can go with a 9 or 11, turbine blade, which would net you more air flow to pass through the turbine.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

If you're only going for HP gains get a Stage 1 ECU tune, HFC and exhaust, and stick with the K04. Other option, bigger turbo.

A K04 on a B7 is a stage III upgrade my friend. He isn’t going to want to run a K04 on a stage 1 tune. 😀

[Brillo]

Educate me on this. If the compressor wheel is bigger than the turbine shaft, wouldn't that cause an ilregular flow from the compressor and into the smaller turbine?

This question really doesn't make sense to me as there is no flow between the compressor into the turbine. On any TC there needs to be a balance between the turbine and the compressor based mainly on what part of the RPM spectrum you want to optimize boost, and in addition what your lower end is mechanically equipped to handle, and what your fuel delivery capacity is. These all need to be balanced for your tune. I'm no TC expert but do know that replacing a part here and there is not a good approach.

[Charles.waite]

Yea, also, your tune needs to complement your equipment. I can't get a stage 2 tune and just toss on a GTX2876R and cross my fingers. Well I can but the result would be completely underwhelming.

Adding a larger/higher-flow wheel is going to alter the characteristics enough that the tune won't work right.

[Dat Black Kid]

Ohhh! Thanks for that. Well, I knew going with a bigger turbo would require other modifications..........but that's all I knew. Thanks.

[dalmation53]

This from turbolabs_20180703_192220.jpeg

Sent from my G3313 using Audizine mobile app

[Browsky]

What would upgrading the compressor and turbine wheels do if you don't get a bigger housing? Would it increase psi but not bar? I know psi alone is a pretty useless figure without knowing housing size, but not super sure of my turbo knowledge lol


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[Brillo]

1 bar = about 14.7psi

[Brillo]

Theoretically, if you improve the efficiency of the turbine it could allow the compressor to push more air into the induction system by increasing the boost pressure capabilities at any given rpm, most importantly at the higher RPMs where certainly the stock turbine peters out. Modified housings, again theoretically, could also allow more air through put on the compressure side of the TC. My point earlier though is that a modification here and there doesn't make a lot of sense to me unless the whole system is balanced based on your particular tune.

[Browsky]

I agree if you don't update the tune it won't be able to take advantage. I was just curious about just changing out the compressor and turbine. Thanks for the info


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[tloft4]

I agree if you don't update the tune it won't be able to take advantage. I was just curious about just changing out the compressor and turbine. Thanks for the info


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

not to be rude but knowing scales of pressure would be a good start. a psi/bar/nm2/etc are all relative. 1 bar ~atmosphere ~ 14.7psi as said above. if youve seen posts of people confused why their turbo is boosting almost 15 pounds higher, its because they dont account for atmospheric pressure.

[Joshlc1988]

I just talked to turbo labs about the b7 k03/k04 turbos about a week ago. For the turbine side there is nothing they can do because of the integrated manifold. They don't have an end mill to machine it. As for the compressor side you will have to find another style k03 housing because ours has the 90* inlet and s made in. They can't machine it properly unless it has an older straight comp housing.

But it can be done! Just find you a housing that fits and send it all to them. You will need a dv relocation kit tho.

[EvolutionArmory]

Here’s a question nobody has asked or answered yet? Is there ANY proof at all that modified wheels do any better than a standard BW K04-064 wheel to begin with?

Check out the K04 thread in the B8 section. All the fastest cars are running CTS K04-064’s and canned tunes. 😀 I know it’s a completely different motor but there’s a lot more data about the turbo coming from their platform.

I’m starting to align myself with Garrett’s train of though. If you need to dick around with a wheel to MAYBE get more power, you’re running the wrong turbo.

[canadianA4B7]

I just talked to turbo labs about the b7 k03/k04 turbos about a week ago. For the turbine side there is nothing they can do because of the integrated manifold. They don't have an end mill to machine it. As for the compressor side you will have to find another style k03 housing because ours has the 90* inlet and s made in. They can't machine it properly unless it has an older straight comp housing.

But it can be done! Just find you a housing that fits and send it all to them. You will need a dv relocation kit tho.

MAZDA!!! I can confirm 100% you could fit a Mazda compressor onto a k04 chra. Will require a TIP pipe with fittings for evap and PCV. Lower pipe will likely fit better on a FMIC. I’ve got more info on this stuff but far too much to type out. When I get some time off I will hopefully do a break down of the S3 k04, RAI K0R, and more data on the Mazda 881 K04 (this has the same turbine as our k04). I’d like to provide raw data including measurements of all 3.

[Charles.waite]

Also companies like BW and Garret spend millions in R&D. You’d think if there was a design that worked better all around they would have built it.

The things like billet wheels of course help but are costly to manufacture so mass market car companies likely have no use for them except on some really high margin cars. So yes they’re better than a cast wheel but much costlier to manufacture so they’re not made. But the shape of the wheel is something they absolutely optimize.

Think about it this way, when you drive with normies, how often do they get above 4K? Pretty much never. And only dipshit enthusiasts like us care about power above this “omg my engine is so loud, is it going to explode” threshold. So BW is generally going to tune the turbo’s output to deliver the power within the range that the intended use is. Couple that with a slushbox with a torque converter and turbo lag is really not an issue so they build the OE k03s for quick response and midrange power. K04s move that slightly higher in the rev range but the turbo is still compromised (by our estimation) by the requirements of the 90% case. The average driver would be terrified by the way a gt30 builds power and totally underwhelmed if they drive like the average grandma.

But that just means we get to do fun stuff like big turbo swaps to make plenty more power in a range that we like.

[canadianA4B7]

I think better options for upgrades with billet wheels would be to use lesser blades. This has been proven to change the characteristics of the turbo curve itself. More blades with the shorter blades between (7+7) is designed for more bottom end, a 8 equal length compressor is made to flow better up top with slightly loss down low. For those looking to change a k04 this would possibly be a game changer to shift more air to the higher rpm. Though limiting factor will remain as the turbine size does not change. One thing that might though would be using the k0r rai compressor or Mazda with 8 blades and the original turbine. This could likelyget us similar boost curve to the Mazda guys seeing 23 psi much further in the rpms which I guess in theory should see higher HP numbers.

Also pre turbo meth could also be a serious contender for those running a k04 turbo. Or fitting a i38 (this is incorrect I just cannot find correct number) into a IHI manifold.

[rodgertherabit]

im holding my breath for CTS to release the boss for longitudinal fsi.

I had all the different options on several 1.8t platforms (20th ae gti and b5 a4)...oem k04, FT, and a full vband PPT gtx2867r.

Needless to say, eliminating the bottleneck in the turbine was the game changer. Boost characteristics, EGTs, and overall reliability was best with the PPT kit. The main goal of my PPT build was to eliminate flow restrictions and I had great results with low boost #s. IE intake, PPT cnc proven manifold, full 3in vband exhaust, and FMIC with custom 2-2.5inpiping. Only thing i didnt do was switch to an AEB largeport head.

[marto7]

im holding my breath for CTS to release the boss for longitudinal fsi.

I had all the different options on several 1.8t platforms (20th ae gti and b5 a4)...oem k04, FT, and a full vband PPT gtx2867r.

Needless to say, eliminating the bottleneck in the turbine was the game changer. Boost characteristics, EGTs, and overall reliability was best with the PPT kit. The main goal of my PPT build was to eliminate flow restrictions and I had great results with low boost #s. IE intake, PPT cnc proven manifold, full 3in vband exhaust, and FMIC with custom 2-2.5inpiping. Only thing i didnt do was switch to an AEB largeport head.

What is the bottleneck ? and what is ppt kit ? The only thing that i made was to remove the inside and outside part of the muffler and welded 2.25 aluminium pipe because my fmic pipes are 2.25.

[rodgertherabit]

The OEM turbine/manifold housing is the bottleneck.

PPT = PagParts Turbo. (pagparts.com). Full Vband, Stainless CNC manifold

[Charles.waite]

The OEM turbine/manifold housing is the bottleneck.

PPT = PagParts Turbo. (pagparts.com). Full Vband, Stainless CNC manifold

To be fair, they don’t have that part listed for sale. And their EFR kit is listed only for transverse. I know it will physically bolt up but the stock intake/exhaust piping might not fit or will need modification.

So saying “just get parts PPT doesn’t have listed for sale” is a bit disingenuous.

[rodgertherabit]

To be fair, they don’t have that part listed for sale. And their EFR kit is listed only for transverse. I know it will physically bolt up but the stock intake/exhaust piping might not fit or will need modification.

So saying “just get parts PPT doesn’t have listed for sale” is a bit disingenuous.

Its not listed on the site, but he does offer them... All you need to do is look on his FB/IG page to see whats up.

Kits are hand crafted (aside from His proprietary made in USA manifolds) and he is VERY flexible with options.

So actually im trying to be very Genuine and educate this side of the community there are more options for us.

[rodgertherabit]

Might be a good read for those who dont know....Just a SEARCH away!


https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...EFR-6758-build

[Charles.waite]

Well that’s good to know. I’ll be honest, seeing stuff listed on IG or Facebook (I rarely use FB) doesn’t instill a ton of confidence but I know it’s becoming increasingly common since maintaining websites and keeping them up to date is very hard to do for many people.

However even just a picture of the manifold and “contact us for more details” would be great. I’ll peruse their various socials and see if I can find the details, appreciate you dropping the info here, wasn’t trying to be a jerk, but having been in the web design/dev in the past I always get annoyed at unmaintained websites.

[EvolutionArmory]

Well that’s good to know. I’ll be honest, seeing stuff listed on IG or Facebook (I rarely use FB) doesn’t instill a ton of confidence but I know it’s becoming increasingly common since maintaining websites and keeping them up to date is very hard to do for many people.

However even just a picture of the manifold and “contact us for more details” would be great. I’ll peruse their various socials and see if I can find the details, appreciate you dropping the info here, wasn’t trying to be a jerk, but having been in the web design/dev in the past I always get annoyed at unmaintained websites.

I’m with you on this. Not seeing a product they still produce on their website does not give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. Maybe we’re just old school like that 😀

[rodgertherabit]

Im kinda speechless honestly...Arnold@pagparts has been a huge supporter of our community and is widely renowned in the 1.8t arena. Ive had nothing but an amazing experience with him. Some light research will back this up.

His kits are bulletproof. I would have already ordered one, but im curious to see the CTS boss kit for our cars.

As for his website. Its probably not his priority as He runs a full custom/performance shop. Most of the time people just call him at the shop. Ill see if I can get him to chime in here. If a link and some picutres on his site is all you old guys need well shit...

[Charles.waite]

Yea I forgot PAG was Arnold. I don’t know him at all but I’ve always heard his name spoken in the b6 forum with the utmost respect. I don’t doubt he makes quality stuff at all, I just like seeing product lists on the website.

Having combed through his FB pics it seems like they have done some very nice EFR installs on b7s and b8s (in addition to lots ok mk5/6s). I’m not doubting the craftsmanship, I just wish guys like him could make the info a bit more readily available so we don’t have to rely on word of mouth. But thanks for making me go look up his work because it’s definitely opened up another option for me in my mind.

[rodgertherabit]

Word of mouth is the strongest form of sales IMO. Yes good visual/accessible marking is effective, however reputations for niche business like him (mine as well) go just as far.

For example. Car dealers spend millions in advertising, but they encourage/rely on the sales team to use their individual networks (friends, family, influencers) to bring people in the door. Im sure we all have at least one car salesperson that we know who is pretty vocal about sales/deals at work.

I grew up in Detroit and this was a VERY strong practice. everyone would get on someones discount

[EvolutionArmory]

Word of mouth is the strongest form of sales IMO. Yes good visual/accessible marking is effective, however reputations for niche business like him (mine as well) go just as far.

For example. Car dealers spend millions in advertising, but they encourage/rely on the sales team to use their individual networks (friends, family, influencers) to bring people in the door. Im sure we all have at least one car salesperson that we know who is pretty vocal about sales/deals at work.

I grew up in Detroit and this was a VERY strong practice. everyone would get on someones discount

Word of mouth is nice but I want to see the product and see the data printed somewhere. I bought a turbo kit based off of forum reputation last year and it’s done nothing but bite me in the ass. What I ended up getting was a turbo with no real data, a tune that had multiple problems and an intercooler made in China that leaks at a weld. I bought it based off a reputation built on THIS forum. My experience on the other hand was less than stellar. Everyone can tell you that a product is amazing but the proof should be clearly visable on their website. Why should someone with like 4 grand ready to be spent have to search on 4 different media platforms to find the info? Just put it on the website? If it was there for me to research I might have bought the PPT EFR kit instead of JHM’s K04R.

Do you see what I mean?

[rodgertherabit]

of course I understand completely. i messaged arnold about updating the site. with something, anything.

Frankenturbo has their products on their site also, with terrible work of mouth feedback.

My point is that I personally dont solely rely on website offerings when searching for solutions.

[EvolutionArmory]

of course I understand completely. i messaged arnold about updating the site. with something, anything.

Frankenturbo has their products on their site also, with terrible work of mouth feedback.

My point is that I personally dont solely rely on website offerings when searching for solutions.

No doubt, no doubt. But your web page is your main money maker. All the other social media platforms are really just there to drive traffic to your webstore.

I’d definitely like to see some info on the PPT EFR kit. If I can’t get my K04R to do a 100MPH pass this year at the track, I’m pulling it and going in another direction. Having Arnold comment here would be awesome.

[marto7]

Yesterday i saw oil leak between the CHRA and Hot part.The leak is very small its not even dripping on to the floor. I noticed it when the car was on hoist to check engine mounts.The turbo is on 500km after rebuild kit changed Melett.What can cause that ?

[EvolutionArmory]

Yesterday i saw oil leak between the CHRA and Hot part.The leak is very small its not even dripping on to the floor. I noticed it when the car was on hoist to check engine mounts.The turbo is on 500km after rebuild kit changed Melett.What can cause that ?

The first thing I would check would be the easiest. The sealing washers on the oil lines on the turbo.

[marto7]

Its now from the oil lines.Its between the CHRA and hot part.Where is the V-band clamp.Its leaking from the clamp.Oil lines is dry.

[EvolutionArmory]

Got a pic of the leak?

[marto7]

I dont have a pic but found very simillar to mine.The leak is small.Its not dipping to the floor just saw it because i was under the car.On the top clamp is dry but on the bottom have oil.When i removed V-band clamp, it has oil inside the clamp