Torx T30 Sockets that don't snap

[Gunnarrrrr]

Need to pull the cams for a valve job, one bolt in particular keeps snapping my t30 sockets. I must've overtightened it when doing my cct gasket a few months back.

Any recommendations for how to remove this? I'm pretty stuck here.

*NOT MY PIC*

but its this bolt right here

[MMMB00ST_A4]

Where is your socket snapping?

[AudiTechS4]

what are you using to take it out now . usually tapping it with a hammer before removal works ( tap bit/socket with hammer into bolt)

[Gunnarrrrr]

what are you using to take it out now . usually tapping it with a hammer before removal works ( tap bit/socket with hammer into bolt)

Thanks for the tip I'll give it a try. I have a bunch of small little torx bits I just need to pick up a 1/4" 3/8 drive socket to put it in, then I don't have to worry about breaking the nice torx sockets.

Where is your socket snapping?

The top portion will bend a little bit, then basically just gets twisted right off

[Timtheguru]

Are you using security torx sockets? Get some normal bits that don't have security holes, they are incredibly worthless for any kind of torque.

That should be 10nm, I'm surprised your cam moves.

[MMMB00ST_A4]

If it's failing there, the only option would probably be to buy a pricier tool with better composition. Another solution would maybe be to JB weld one of them to the bolt head and let it cure overnight. Break it free and then toss it all in the trash.

[MMMB00ST_A4]

Are you using security torx sockets? Get some normal bits that don't have security holes, they are incredibly worthless for any kind of torque.

That should be 10nm, I'm surprised your cam moves.

^Also this. Ditch the security torx(hole in the middle) and get a solid core torx.

[Timtheguru]

I have purchased 2 or 3 of these because I keep losing certain ones, never broken one yet in over 12 years.
https://www.harborfreight.com/9-pc-1...set-67887.html

[MSq5]

Agree with above. A regular, solid tip Torx will be stronger. If you still have trouble, consider applying heat directly to the bolt head first with a small focused heat source like a butane/propane mini-torch. The difference in expansion between steel and aluminum when the heat travels down the bolt will let you break it loose. You may have to get the bolt head red hot, but it will come out.

[Gunnarrrrr]

Are you using security torx sockets? Get some normal bits that don't have security holes, they are incredibly worthless for any kind of torque.

That should be 10nm, I'm surprised your cam moves.

Sorry wrong pic



Yeah I'm not using a security bit. its a solid torx from husky. Like $2/ea @home depot. Garbage apparently.

Cam and everything move fine. I don't think it was that severely overtightened, just siezed up for whatever reason.

Gonna stop by harbor freight and pick up the set you're working with. Might need a lil heat or whatever.

[teckjoel1320]

Get a solid tip torx instead of a safety tip. See if you can get a good one from a local tool truck, like snappy, Mac, matco, or whomever is near/will warranty. I have snapon tools, and my torx bits see a fair amount of time on my impact guns and impact drivers. I’m not sure if I would use an impact driver on a head/cam cap but get a good t30 from a good company, put it on a 3/8” impact or super long breaker bar, I’d probably use a 2’ plus bar and slowly apply a ton of torque. Put one hand on the head of the ratchet area to keep pressure even bad use the other to apply torque/pressure. I’ve had some bolts holding cam gears to cams (Subaru) specific where I’ve had to stand on my 36” breaker bar and I’m 280lbs just to get them to budge.

Get some spray called Deep Creep from sea foam too. Shit works wonders.

[V70R]

Sorry wrong pic



Yeah I'm not using a security bit. its a solid torx from husky. Like $2/ea @home depot. Garbage apparently.

Cam and everything move fine. I don't think it was that severely overtightened, just siezed up for whatever reason.

Gonna stop by harbor freight and pick up the set you're working with. Might need a lil heat or whatever.

Do not apply heat to your cam caps, no.

I think part of the issue was the bolt being tightened with oil on it, thus increasing the tightening torque upwards of 25% from Audi/VW specified torque value. When you reinstall your cams, use an old bolt of the same thread pitch to clean each thread hole at least once. Thread it in by hand, back it out and wipe off the excess oil when the bolt is removed. Do this for each bolt hole until no oil is being transferred from the threads to a shop towel. This will help "dry" the holes and yield an accurate torque value when you reassemble.

[shurur9]

metric nut grabbers/bolt grips/bolt extractors ..amazon....??
standard ASE (irwins) do not work, as metric bolts are metric heads as well.

I am at the point where I would like to replace all torx heads with hex heads, but have not gone as far into the engine as you have.

I have also looked at your other posts and am impressed with your thoroughness.

[Spike00513]

There's a lot of tool companies to choose from besides just Husky, which I think Lowe's has.
Also, notice that this is a regular socket/bit. Impact ones tend to be black.
Would that make them stronger? In which case, should you use an impact bit?

However, being an 'impact bit' suggests it's used with an impact gun. If you don't have one, then is it as useful?
For example, with an impact gun you can hold steady pressure pushing the bit into the bolt head.
versus if you use a ratchet by hand, it's harder to do that. It's also harder to keep it straight vertical.

So would it help to use a power-tool as well? Such as an impact; electric, or air.
Or even simulating impact by hand? I hear this is the way to break bolts loose: not to apply gradual/progressive force, but rather a swift hard motion.
I hope the bolt head is clean enough for the bit to fully seat into it.

Someone mentioned cleaning holes.
Another way might be with a chemical, but being careful. Such as if you use compressed air to blow it out after, to protect your eyes, hearing (from whistling air noise), etc.

I know Craftsman has a thread restorer tool kit that Snap-On supposedly rebrands,
but IDK how many size bits are in the kit, and if it's good or not.
I read the idea behind it is that tap/die sets are more for cutting bolt threads, versus this is supposed to be more for cleaning.
Well, it's one thing to clean a bolt on a wire wheel, or with a wire brush.
versus something like seat bolt holes inside the car, where they might use blue loc-tite multiple times if the seats have been taken out before. Such as for more carrying space to move cargo (remove front seat), or for interior cleaning.
Those thread holes cake up with white powder and a thread restore kit seems to do better than a pipe-cleaner style wire brush. But IDK what other tools exist.

That pic looks like the bit is separate pieces, even if it doesn't easily come apart by hand. Maybe in a vice with a hammer to assemble, or grips to take apart.
Looks like despite having a (chrome vanadium?) holder, it's still just a cheap bit in there...

I wonder what size, if it's 3/8", 1/2"-drive, or 1/4.
But either way it sounds like the tip is what's failing, and that the holder is just there to link/connect it to whatever big ratchet for leverage.

Regarding penetrating oils, I'd wonder if it's bad to accidentally get some into the oil system of the car,
but supposedly some are safe for that anyway, or at least they claim to be. Such as Kroil and MMO.
IDK if such a thing would help though; if the bolt is tight, how would it even creep in there to help break threads free?
Kroil claims it penetrates one-millionth inch spaces.

I hope nothing bad can happen from bigger force such as an impact power-tool; could it break the bolt in half down the middle, deep in the engine?
Maybe not, if the bolt is dark-colored, which makes me think of high hardness scale rated fasteners. Hard enough to break the tool bit and still be fine/not strip.

[V70R]

Spike-

I have the Snap-on thread restorer kit, I frequently use this on aircooled Porsche's and some portions of our engines and in my opinion this is a must-have. Kastar manufacturers both the S-O and Craftsman kits. Any time a tap or die is used it removes material, so using it as a chaser is kind of a big no-no.

Regarding Torx bits/sockets, I have a couple sets of S-O's heavy duty Ti coated bit sockets, and never have broken a bolt. I attribute this to their bit design as they do not chamfer their bits allowing more of the bit to contact the head of the fastener, and prohibiting the bit from "camming-out" aka rounding when torque is applied.

If everyone wants a set of torx bits that rival tool truck quality at 1/12 the price, check out VIM. VIM manufacturers bit sockets for Williams (Snap-on Industrial), Blue Point, Cornwell, and a few others. They are made in Taiwan, reasonably priced and should reduce the frustration of torx fastener frustrations. Bonus: they even make non-chamfered stubby T30's for us 1.8T guys for $2.28 each!

http://www.toolpan.com/Vim-Tool-VHCT...T_p_38349.html

[Gunnarrrrr]

Spike-

If everyone wants a set of torx bits that rival tool truck quality at 1/12 the price, check out VIM. VIM manufacturers bit sockets for Williams (Snap-on Industrial), Blue Point, Cornwell, and a few others. They are made in Taiwan, reasonably priced and should reduce the frustration of torx fastener frustrations. Bonus: they even make non-chamfered stubby T30's for us 1.8T guys for $2.28 each!

http://www.toolpan.com/Vim-Tool-VHCT...T_p_38349.html

Definitely going to have to check out that t30. looks like a must-have.

There's a lot of tool companies to choose from besides just Husky, which I think Lowe's has.
Also, notice that this is a regular socket/bit. Impact ones tend to be black.
Would that make them stronger? In which case, should you use an impact bit?

We only have a home depot around here, so nothing but husky we just got a harbor freight a couple months back though!

Do not apply heat to your cam caps, no.

I think part of the issue was the bolt being tightened with oil on it, thus increasing the tightening torque upwards of 25% from Audi/VW specified torque value. When you reinstall your cams, use an old bolt of the same thread pitch to clean each thread hole at least once. Thread it in by hand, back it out and wipe off the excess oil when the bolt is removed. Do this for each bolt hole until no oil is being transferred from the threads to a shop towel. This will help "dry" the holes and yield an accurate torque value when you reassemble.

These bolts were definitely tightened with oil on them. Thanks for pointing that out

[Spike00513]

Spike-

I have the Snap-on thread restorer kit, I frequently use this on aircooled Porsche's and some portions of our engines and in my opinion this is a must-have. Kastar manufacturers both the S-O and Craftsman kits. Any time a tap or die is used it removes material, so using it as a chaser is kind of a big no-no.

Regarding Torx bits/sockets, I have a couple sets of S-O's heavy duty Ti coated bit sockets, and never have broken a bolt. I attribute this to their bit design as they do not chamfer their bits allowing more of the bit to contact the head of the fastener, and prohibiting the bit from "camming-out" aka rounding when torque is applied.

If everyone wants a set of torx bits that rival tool truck quality at 1/12 the price, check out VIM. VIM manufacturers bit sockets for Williams (Snap-on Industrial), Blue Point, Cornwell, and a few others. They are made in Taiwan, reasonably priced and should reduce the frustration of torx fastener frustrations. Bonus: they even make non-chamfered stubby T30's for us 1.8T guys for $2.28 each!

http://www.toolpan.com/Vim-Tool-VHCT...T_p_38349.html

In case I forgot to add, some other things about wet vs. dry bolt torque:
I read that wet torque is altered and called K factor, to measure it with engineering math equations
and fluid does not compress like air does, so maybe accidentally leaving any liquid within a thread hole would prevent a bolt from doing it's job properly.

Yep, seen that kit. Same supplier. I got it on sale for $50 from Sears but barely used it.
Exactly: I never want to shave off extra metal material from a thread.
I never tried any spinning wire wheel attachments on a dremel or anything.

Wondering why you're "frequently working on aircooled Porsche's"... *curiosity intensifies*

Supposedly there's a certain way to use the Kastar kit. To not go too hard the first time, but rather until there is resistance and then maybe take it back out and clean the bits (wire brush?) of debris, so it doesn't clog and break them from a single use.

Wow. Didn't know SO had Ti coated. They probably would though.
No titanium wallet though, at the moment.

I feel like I've dealt with some tool bits that fit tighter and are a bit difficult to get into a bolt head, but it's worth it in the end due to not stripping.
But others that go in really easy, but are loose and can strip.

Never heard of VIM and Williams, but know of those other companies. Am writing this down, thank you.
I've heard about Taiwan being used as a manufacturing location, such as for Tekton, Craftsman (was made in America), Gear Wrench, and I'm not sure what else.

$2.28 for that bit does not look bad. Hopefully shipping isn't too high.
I feel like that's less than what a local store would charge, ie auto parts stores, home improvement stores, etc.

"non-chamfered", is that something you're just confirming by eye/visually?
Because that bit's teeth look straight, sharp, and pointy.
I feel like some bits even make somewhat of a click sound when fully seating in a bolt head. Which may be good?

I think Advance is having a father's day sale on Gear Wrench or something. Might've seen it mentioned on a sales/deals thread on GarageJournal forum, or SlickDeals.
(there's a Torx set/kit)

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/brands/gear-wrench

That's a loooot of pages on the tool site you linked, with everything claiming to be on sale

We only have a home depot around here, so nothing but husky we just got a harbor freight a couple months back though!

Maybe that is a factor in this case. If the car needs to be quickly put back together, up and running on the road again. After a quick trip to a local store,
versus adding additional downtime waiting for a tool bit to ship in via mail, if ordering it from somewhere.

[Kevin C]

The colder the head is, the lower the bolt tension. Basically, freeze the head to reduce clamping force. An impact driver might help.

[Gunnarrrrr]

I'm seriously contemplating cutting the head off this bolt so I can get the cam out.

Not the bolt in the pic. The one to the right of the cam cap in the picIMG_20180628_222659.jpg

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[Spike00513]

The colder the head is, the lower the bolt tension. Basically, freeze the head to reduce clamping force. An impact driver might help.

IDK what could cool the head. I've tried dry ice on a part from a grocery store, but it didn't really do anything.
But, leaving wheel bearing parts or bushings in a freezer overnight helped. But those are small parts that fit. I later transported them in a cooler in the car trunk, to hold the cold temperature while driving to a shop.

IDK what could cool it. Bags of ice everywhere? (bags, because the ice may eventually melt, and plastic bags would keep the water from spilling in the engine)

Driver as in electric, or hammer version?

https://www.toolsource.com/sets-c-19...-p-125807.html

I'm seriously contemplating cutting the head off this bolt so I can get the cam out.

Not the bolt in the pic. The one to the right of the cam cap in the picIMG_20180628_222659.jpg

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Well. Bolts work by providing tension from the threads pulling away from the head, which stays stopped.
Without the head, the threaded shaft would just spin through and fall out the bottom, or hit the bottom/bottom out if it has an ending.
Which is why threads can get pulled out if over-torquing, if they're small and a soft metal that only has so much strength. Hence torque specs. But you probably know this.

Unless it's another kind of threading, like a B7 brake caliper. I think those threads are micro-serrated like shark teeth or something, and says in a manual to not separate them because it's intended to be assembled once from the factory by Ate and stay there that way. Those are harder to turn when screwing/unscrewing, because of the friction of it biting into the caliper metal.
You can even feel it with your hand. It feels different from a normal thread.
I assume this is just a regular metric thread.

[old guy]

I had a similar problem when removing the cam cap bolts for the first time. I used my impact wrench and pressed down really hard. Short controlled bursts and the bolts came right out with no issues.

[Seerlah]

If the force from the springs are making it more difficult, place all bolts back then focus on the one that is an issue. The tq is weak on those bolts, but the heat and spring tension causes the threads to lock pretty good over time.

If all the bolts are loose and free, then the force is directed to the caps left over. Bentley actually has a tq removal sequence, and this may be one of the reasons why. But as long as you loosen everything evenly, should make things easier.

I have extra cam cap bolts laying around. Worst comes to worst, drill the head off and deal with the shaft of the bolt (will be long enough for vice grip, double nut lock technique, etc). I'll send you replacement bolts if it comes to this (just pay shipping). But you should be able to crack the bolt and keep it intact as long as the extra tension from the springs are not focused on that bolt or bolts. The pinch effect on the threads is what I assume is your issue.

[fR3ZNO]

I would recommend grabbing a set of the impact Torx bits from Harbor Freight. I've had the non impact style break in a similar fashion to how you're describing. Also, x2 to Old Guys suggestion of using an impact wrench, apply downward to pressure to prevent the bit from slipping out and damaging the bolt head.

[vtraudt]

I have purchased 2 or 3 of these because I keep losing certain ones, never broken one yet in over 12 years.
https://www.harborfreight.com/9-pc-1...set-67887.html

I snapped a few over the years. Toss and get another one. $10 or less is a no brainer.

But even better: love my "all in one" set: short and long of every torx bit, allen and triple square bit in one box, $35 or so. comes with 3/8 and 1/2 adapter. BUT best of all, they have hex end that fits into a 10mm socket, wrench or ratchet wrench. BEST ever to get to tight spots.

[Gunnarrrrr]

If the force from the springs are making it more difficult, place all bolts back then focus on the one that is an issue. The tq is weak on those bolts, but the heat and spring tension causes the threads to lock pretty good over time.

If all the bolts are loose and free, then the force is directed to the caps left over. Bentley actually has a tq removal sequence, and this may be one of the reasons why. But as long as you loosen everything evenly, should make things easier.

I have extra cam cap bolts laying around. Worst comes to worst, drill the head off and deal with the shaft of the bolt (will be long enough for vice grip, double nut lock technique, etc). I'll send you replacement bolts if it comes to this (just pay shipping). But you should be able to crack the bolt and keep it intact as long as the extra tension from the springs are not focused on that bolt or bolts. The pinch effect on the threads is what I assume is your issue.

Gonna just bring the head over to the pops' house after work and use his impact driver. All the other bolts are still snug which is what's so weird. Makes no sense how this bolt could be so tight. Thanks for the offer on the cam cap bolt tho, I'll probably just order a couple when I order my ie rods from ecs and take advantage of their free shipping, the bolts are only like $1.50 ea.

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[Gunnarrrrr]

Update: got the bolt out with the vice grips + socket wrench trick.

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[BigMacIII]

You can grab one of these at a Home Depot and find a generic T30 to fit. It’s an impact driver. When you hit it with the hamer it will back the bolt out. Image1530418724.471229.jpgImage1530418724.471229.jpg


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[BigMacIII]

Maybe hit it with a little heat to, it may losses it up enough for you to get it started , the the T30 torque won’t bust as easily. Home this helps


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[MotorManiac]

Impact driver is the way to go. Spent many years in a machine shop and have seen plenty of these heads come in for valve jobs and to repair bent/broken valves.

Highly recommend picking up a quality tool for removing hard to turn bolts!

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[Jarrodg1993]

If you need a good set of torx bits, I've had really good luck with my ATD set. Haven't broken a single one and I've put a lot of pressure on some of them. My set came with the security bits and the regular ones. Really nice for working on my enclosed trailers.

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[Spike00513]

Update: got the bolt out with the vice grips + socket wrench trick.

This?

[Gunnarrrrr]

This?

hell ya borther

[Mike.G]

Gotta love AUDI!

I recently had to replace my driver's side CV axle and I paid $25 just for a set of triple square bits. The CV axle was $80. Swear to God everything is expensive with Audi. It's like a fragile lady. But one with a great ass lmao

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[Spike00513]

Gotta love AUDI!

I recently had to replace my driver's side CV axle and I paid $25 just for a set of triple square bits. The CV axle was $80. Swear to God everything is expensive with Audi. It's like a fragile lady. But one with a great ass lmao

AST6300

hell ya borther

I wonder if this one's even better.



A flat gripping head to match bolts (at least for hex tops), and thumb adjustment screw.
Or maybe in this case the needle nose is better to grip into a round bolt sharply using the teeth cut into it.

edit: it actually does have teeth:

[Gunnarrrrr]

AST6300





I wonder if this one's even better.



A flat gripping head to match bolts (at least for hex tops), and thumb adjustment screw.
Or maybe in this case the needle nose is better to grip into a round bolt sharply using the teeth cut into it.

For the hex nuts that have an hex Allen stud, or a tricky hex bolt that also has a small Allen key hole. that's all I could think of using one of these for.

These pass-through sockets are pretty neat, initially used them for tightening the nuts on my coilovers before investing in air tools.spin_prod_541330301.jpeg

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[V70R]

AST tools are so worth the price. I have never had one issue with quality control or fitment of a tool, and I think this is why I always go AST for factory tools.

Spike- thanks for the gearwrench links. If you guys want to see some pretty awesome spline sockets, search for SK's sets that still are around in both metric short and deep lengths. Pretty awesome for the price.

My aircooled Porsche fun is primarily around old 356's...lots of old aluminum cases and components that are not available, always cleaning threads before assembling clean (but ancient) items

I'll take pics tomorrow showing chamfered versus non-chamfered bits and some pros and cons of each type.

[RHawk]

Nothing more to adddownload.jpeg

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