ZF Oil Change on RS6/7

[P_G]

So I'm rapidly approaching 60k miles on my '15 RS7 and thinking that an oil change may be on the cards for the ZF. I understand these are seemingly 'sealed for life' units however I also suspect they don't expect many of these cars to do 60k+ miles in the warrantied lifetime so has any one done this oil change either by a garage or DIY? What are the recommended intervals if they have and ball park cost?

Advice appreciated.

[lnferno]

Going forward, please post in the V8 4.0tt sub forum. You’ll get more visibility.

[p3u]

So I'm rapidly approaching 60k miles on my '15 RS7 and thinking that an oil change may be on the cards for the ZF. I understand these are seemingly 'sealed for life' units however I also suspect they don't expect many of these cars to do 60k+ miles in the warrantied lifetime so has any one done this oil change either by a garage or DIY? What are the recommended intervals if they have and ball park cost?

Advice appreciated.

I've looked into this as well since the A6 utilizes a variant of the same transmission.

I've been quoted $700 for the fluid and filter replacement.

ZF recommends to replace fluid at 60k miles or sooner if driven under "severe conditions."

From ZF

ZF's automatic transmissions in general have a long service life and are filled with high-quality fully or partly synthetic ZF-LIFEGUARDFLUID oil. However, due to a sporty driving style or frequent towing of trailers, the oil might age prematurely. Gearshift problems might be an indicator for aged oil. Thus, ZF Services experts recommend to change transmission oil after 100,000 kilometers or after eight years at the latest

[Upstate Audi]

I've looked into this as well since the A6 utilizes a variant of the same transmission.

I've been quoted $700 for the fluid and filter replacement.

ZF recommends to replace fluid at 60k miles or sooner if driven under "severe conditions."

From ZF

In that quote from ZF what exactly do they mean by gearshift problems? My 2012 A6 has 92k miles on it and I've noticed that sometimes while I'm fully on the gas it will change gears instantly and other times it will take noticeably longer to do so.

[aistis72]

So I'm rapidly approaching 60k miles on my '15 RS7 and thinking that an oil change may be on the cards for the ZF. I understand these are seemingly 'sealed for life' units however I also suspect they don't expect many of these cars to do 60k+ miles in the warrantied lifetime so has any one done this oil change either by a garage or DIY? What are the recommended intervals if they have and ball park cost?

Advice appreciated.

I think Audi service can tell you when it’s needed to change


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[q5 dave]

I think Audi service can tell you when it’s needed to change

LOL! Dealers will tell you it's non serviceable & lifetime fluid. Whereas ZF strongly recommends 60k service intervals.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...Lifetime-fluid

[Audibot]

LOL! Dealers will tell you it's non serviceable & lifetime fluid. Whereas ZF strongly recommends 60k service intervals.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...Lifetime-fluid

This

Even on my B7, it was "lifetime". I changed it the first time at 108k (after the dealer scaring me off for 8k), and it was SOOOOO much better. Much smoother and with faster shifts. I changed it again at 148k (this time was Redline D4). Keep it nice and good until car was totaled.

Idk how well this applies to the 8-sp, but in general on the 6-speed ZF, this was the approximate process:

Start by having the car slightly warmed up, then crack the fill plug and tighten it (so you could actually refill it), and then crack open the drain plug and drain the fluid out. Remove the pan bolts, and pan. Clean off the magnets. Replace the filter, pan gasket, and pan. Torque to spec in required sequence (I think it was tightening opposites all the way around). Replace drain plug.

Two person job starts here. Open fill plug. With a fluid xfer pump, add in fluid until it just starts to overflow. Put in drain plug. Start engine and shift thru PRND. While monitoring the temperature to make sure fluid doesn't get above 40 C, add in fluid until it leaks out of till plug again. Repeat this process several times over to make sure the correct amount of fluid has been added and the transmission shifts appropriately.

I think when I did mine it was approximately 3-4 L of fluid. I'm sure with a bigger trans that will be more fluid.

[JayDog747]

Whether it's gear oil or transmission fluid, it should be changed every 50k miles. It's a simple DIY if you have the right tools and knowledge and you will definitely notice it, especially in an RS.

I wouldn't pay more than $400usd for the service.

[Kevin1]

Going forward, please post in the V8 4.0tt sub forum. You’ll get more visibility.

Plus 1. Administrators please move

[p3u]

Going forward, please post in the V8 4.0tt sub forum. You’ll get more visibility.

Plus 1. Administrators please move

The A6/A7 and RS7 use a variant of the 8HP. The transmission is so ubiquitous across the Audi line up OP would be getting a much greater response in here. Production figures show it out numbers over 100 to 1.

Same procedure, same capacity, same fluid.

[q5 dave]

The A6 and RS7 use a variant of the 8HP. The transmission is so ubiquitous across the Audi line up OP would be getting a much greater response in here. Same procedure, same capacity, same fluid.

+1 zf is found across the lineup not only rs7...

[p3u]

+1 zf is found across the lineup not only rs7...

It's crazy how many Audi's use the 8HP. On the current lineup it's found in the A4, A5, A6/A7 2.0 and 3.0, A8 3.0 and 4.0, Q5 2.0 and 3.0, Q7, S4, S5, S8, RS5, and RS7. I think that's all of them.

Any forum could answer this question better than the 4.0tt sub lol.

[JWebb_C7_Comp]

+1 zf is found across the lineup not only rs7...

ZF transmissions are common amongst BMW as well. I had one in my 2008 335 XI, which I recently traded for a 2018 A6 (yes, I keep cars I enjoy a very long time).

ZF recommends changing fluid notwithstanding manufacturer recommendations. They recommend using their ZF fluid, which I "believe" meets a Shell specification, and it's very expensive (guessing $20 per liter).

In my case, I had the fluid drained and filled once (at about 50k miles) and also did an entire pan/filter/gasket and fluid swap at about 99k miles. In both cases I didn't DIY and I paid DEALER charges (roughly $500). That car was tuned as was the transmission. I never had any problems with the transmission; in fact, it was fantastic even with more than 100k miles when I traded it. In the case of BMW - and, I assume Audi - there's a transmission adaptation/learning program that's used when the transmission has received new fluid. Supposedly, it's important and relates to clutch wear, etc. In both cases, I spoke with my BMW dealer and they ran that routine to ensure max benefit from fluid swap.

I'll treat the transmission in my A6 the same, betting that I'm keeping the car in the family for a long time. If, however, I decide for some reason that I'm not keeping the car long-term, I won't spend money on transmission service. Heck, I'd probably ignore the differentials and transfer case too.

[lnferno]

It's crazy how many Audi's use the 8HP. On the current lineup it's found in the A4, A5, A6/A7 2.0 and 3.0, A8 3.0 and 4.0, Q5 2.0 and 3.0, Q7, S4, S5, S8, RS5, and RS7. I think that's all of them.
Any forum could answer this question better than the 4.0tt sub lol.

LOL based upon that logic, all the Audi vehicles that have the 3.0 should all be in the same forum as well.

[p3u]

LOL based upon that logic, all the Audi vehicles that have the 3.0 should all be in the same forum as well.

Lol. That's your conclusion as I've never stated, mentioned or implied such a ridiculous notion. Although, I do frequently visit the B8 S4 forum. They have a vastly larger group and knowledge base than the C7 forum does for the 3.0t. "Based on that logic" I've learned much more than I could have here alone, but I digress...

OP posted a question regarding the changing of transmission fluid on his vehicle. You police him immediately to the 4.0tt sub forum. That form has a sample size that is a fraction of the main forum that can answer the same exact question. He could have posted his question in the Q5 forums with a significantly larger audience to answer.

Tell me, how will the OP "get more visibility" again by posting this question in the 4.0tt forum?

[lnferno]

Lol. That's your conclusion as I've never stated, mentioned or implied such a ridiculous notion. Although, I do frequently visit the B8 S4 forum. They have a vastly larger group and knowledge base than the C7 forum does for the 3.0t. "Based on that logic" I've learned much more than I could have here alone, but I digress...

OP posted a question regarding the changing of transmission fluid on his vehicle. You police him immediately to the 4.0tt sub forum. That form has a sample size that is a fraction of the main forum that can answer the same exact question. He could have posted his question in the Q5 forums with a significantly larger audience to answer.

Tell me, how will the OP "get more visibility" again by posting this question in the 4.0tt forum?

A larger audience doesn't necessarily always correlate to more knowledge. I'm not a mod (nor do I want to be), so I don't have the ability to "police" anyone. I was merely offering a suggestion.

There are lots of variants. Variants are just that - variants. The RS7 only shares the 8HP90 transmission with the RS6 and the SQ7 (for Audi). Again, there can be overlapping maintenance with the variant trannies (I'm not arguing that), but when it comes to the entire drivetrain, there are differences with some of the various drivetrain and maintenance components that are specific to the C7 RS7 as opposed to the C7 A6/A7. That was my reasoning for suggesting the sub-forum.

[aistis72]

LOL! Dealers will tell you it's non serviceable & lifetime fluid. Whereas ZF strongly recommends 60k service intervals.

https://www.audizine.com/forum/showt...Lifetime-fluid

If dealers say so then why don’t you think dealers know what they say? Do you say Audi hires non professional people if it’s life time then it’s lifetime and ppl who think they can change oil in transmission using some diy is useless, show me where in a Audi bulletin it’s says that transmission oil should be changed at 60k miles?

I believe that you can change it but it’s not necessary if Audi says so


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[Audibot]

If dealers say so then why don’t you think dealers know what they say? Do you say Audi hires non professional people if it’s life time then it’s lifetime and ppl who think they can change oil in transmission using some diy is useless, show me where in a Audi bulletin it’s says that transmission oil should be changed at 60k miles?

I believe that you can change it but it’s not necessary if Audi says so

Because I've seen the rash of transmission failures over the years in "non-serviceable" transmissions. Yeah, they've gotten better over time, but you can see a ton of C5 with sale with blown trannies because of this "lifetime" fluid. Has also happened in some B7s I'm aware of, so contrary to what the dealer says, it's gonna get changed.

Besides, no fluid is truly "lifetime". If I drive my car 200k, you expect it to last that long? You're insane if that's the case.

If the dealer told you that they needed to replace your blinker fluid, I'm sure you would be right there with them telling them to go ahead.

[aistis72]

Because I've seen the rash of transmission failures over the years in "non-serviceable" transmissions. Yeah, they've gotten better over time, but you can see a ton of C5 with sale with blown trannies because of this "lifetime" fluid. Has also happened in some B7s I'm aware of, so contrary to what the dealer says, it's gonna get changed.

Besides, no fluid is truly "lifetime". If I drive my car 200k, you expect it to last that long? You're insane if that's the case.

If the dealer told you that they needed to replace your blinker fluid, I'm sure you would be right there with them telling them to go ahead.

Comon we talk about c7 rs6 or Rs7 and s7 transmissions that are well made and I don’t think if Audi sealed it for life it should be otherwise)


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[P_G]

What is the definition of 'lifetime' though. Most dealers don't expect their cars to do over a set number of miles in a certain period. Me, I do more than average miles. And whilst I don't count Audi techs as 'incompetent' they work to a prescribed set of instructions they have to follow. On a B7 RS4 I had I took it to them when there was an issue and after 6 hours of investigation they diagnosed that it needed an entire new manifold and 16 hours to take off the current one and replace. The real issue, one core plug blew out, cost £2 for a new one to be machined and 2 hours of labour at a garage so in total £70 vs. £4k for Audi.

This is one of many examples I've amassed over the years form the 9 Audis I've owned over the years. Once out of warranty Audi don't care, if extended warranty I suspect the parameters change. Lifetime is probably the lifetime of the warranty. So I'll be changing it. On Haldex / diffs Audi suggest it is a lifetime sealed unit as well with no need to change the oil and they don't even have a filter replacement however the number I have seen when the filter is clogged up to make the Haldex fail and a simple change of filter and the oil transforms the car would genuinely shock you.

[Audibot]

Comon we talk about c7 rs6 or Rs7 and s7 transmissions that are well made and I don’t think if Audi sealed it for life it should be otherwise)

Yeah ok, keep drinking that koolaid

What is the definition of 'lifetime' though. Most dealers don't expect their cars to do over a set number of miles in a certain period. Me, I do more than average miles. And whilst I don't count Audi techs as 'incompetent' they work to a prescribed set of instructions they have to follow. On a B7 RS4 I had I took it to them when there was an issue and after 6 hours of investigation they diagnosed that it needed an entire new manifold and 16 hours to take off the current one and replace. The real issue, one core plug blew out, cost £2 for a new one to be machined and 2 hours of labour at a garage so in total £70 vs. £4k for Audi.

This is one of many examples I've amassed over the years form the 9 Audis I've owned over the years. Once out of warranty Audi don't care, if extended warranty I suspect the parameters change. Lifetime is probably the lifetime of the warranty. So I'll be changing it. On Haldex / diffs Audi suggest it is a lifetime sealed unit as well with no need to change the oil and they don't even have a filter replacement however the number I have seen when the filter is clogged up to make the Haldex fail and a simple change of filter and the oil transforms the car would genuinely shock you.

I suspect "lifetime" is around 100k miles. Enough for the average car to be leased, and then sold as used/CPO and the new owner out of warranty.

My yearly average has been trending down, but it's still hovering around 18k a year, which means I'll get a big middle finger from Audi next year lol

[aistis72]

Yeah ok, keep drinking that koolaid






I suspect "lifetime" is around 100k miles. Enough for the average car to be leased, and then sold as used/CPO and the new owner out of warranty.

My yearly average has been trending down, but it's still hovering around 18k a year, which means I'll get a big middle finger from Audi next year lol

Well when you hit 100k miles then maybe you can consider changing oil in your transmission)


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[Audibot]

Well when you hit 100k miles then maybe you can consider changing oil in your transmission)

Sure will! Thanks for the recommendation!

[aistis72]

Sure will! Thanks for the recommendation!

You Are welcome dude


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[Kevin1]

ZF, the actual transmission manufacturer, suggests in its literature that a fluid change be done every 70,000 miles. So that’s what I went with.

[aistis72]

ZF, the actual transmission manufacturer, suggests in its literature that a fluid change be done every 70,000 miles. So that’s what I went with.

Did you changed it in Audi dealership? Did you asked for a change? Or they suggested?


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[Kevin1]

I had it changed at the dealership. I requested the service. In response to my request, my SA of the last 13 years laughed and said “you know that even though ZF suggests that it be changed every 70,000 miles that Audi says it is lifetime fluid.” I told her to change it. After the fluid change the difference in the shifting was noticeable. It should be noted that I had not noticed any shifting issues before the fluid change. I only requested the fluid change because of the ZF recommendation.

[s4nicetry]

The definition of lifetime fluid is "lifetime of the warranty". It's a cost cutting measure and nothing else. When audi or bmw or whoever is bidding out a diff or transmission or whatever mechanical part they will look very favorably to said manufacturer that had a quality reputation and offers them a part that will not require service or maintenance for the duration of the vehicles warranty, which would be an additional cost to the car company. A "lifetime part" in their eyes. When warranty runs out, it is a whole different story as service and maintenance is a BIG money maker for the car companies.

While the lubricant itself may be able to last a long time, there is nothing that can last forever. Particularly in something like a transmission where there is a ton of mechanical parts going through a sh!tload of hot / cold cycles, creating friction, constantly moving and grinding together releasing various contaminants and particulates that clog up filters and / or work their way back into the system causing more damage. No machine will last forever, especially without service and maintenance, none.

[aistis72]

I had it changed at the dealership. I requested the service. In response to my request, my SA of the last 13 years laughed and said “you know that even though ZF suggests that it be changed every 70,000 miles that Audi says it is lifetime fluid.” I told her to change it. After the fluid change the difference in the shifting was noticeable. It should be noted that I had not noticed any shifting issues before the fluid change. I only requested the fluid change because of the ZF recommendation.

Ok thanks for information, 70.000 miles seems worth to change then, but people say that after fluid change actually there is no difference and some people say that new fluid sometimes cause transmission problems, new fluid doesn’t mean better shifting?


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[s4nicetry]

Ok thanks for information, 70.000 miles seems worth to change then, but people say that after fluid change actually there is no difference and some people say that new fluid sometimes cause transmission problems, new fluid doesn’t mean better shifting?


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It's just maintenance, your car might shift smoother and it might not. If your transmission is already on it's way out the door for whatever reason, changing the fluid is not going to repair it. Think of changing your engine oil. If you do it at the recommended intervals, your engine has a much better chance of having a longer life. If the engine has been neglected or has some unseen issue internally that's been building over time then changing the engine oil isn't going to fix it. If ZF says to change the fluid and filter at whatever mileage on their transmission then do it. If your transmission is having issues shifting, or throwing codes etc. then take it in for an inspection.

[q5 dave]

Ok thanks for information, 70.000 miles seems worth to change then, but people say that after fluid change actually there is no difference and some people say that new fluid sometimes cause transmission problems, new fluid doesn’t mean better shifting?

There's a window where changing the ZF oil will be beneficial, but from what I understand if all of a sudden at 115k miles you decide it's time to change original transmission oil it could do more harm than good. Something about about the metal fragments.

[MP4.2+6.0]

There's a window where changing the ZF oil will be beneficial, but from what I understand if all of a sudden at 115k miles you decide it's time to change original transmission oil it could do more harm than good. Something about about the metal fragments.

FWIW, I don't buy this, or would say it is closer to a 15 year type dated theory.

Specifically, in the "old days" they used to use lead coated bearing surfaces in key bearing/spinning places in the tranny. Lead of course is soft and itself has certain lubrication properties. It is also a lot of that old slimy and somewhat shimmering stuff you would find in the bottom of the tranny pan from an older vehicle. Well, things changed. If you are familiar with terms like RoHS, industry in general had to convert and phase out lead. Even more stringently in Europe. Thus, having talked live with a senior guy at what is probably the lead U.S. rebuilder and distributor for Audi fitments for ZF (Erikcsson Industries in CT), he told me that as of the D3/C6 era with the six speed, lead was out. The spinning related mating surfaces were then basically steel to steel. He told me how ZF also relied in the newer designs on controlled bleed rates and related pressures in certain parts of the tranny. All that puts a premium on clean fluid at all times during the tranny life. From experience pulling a pan on my D3 six speed a couple of times, I can also tell you directly they indeed were much cleaner at similar miles than the C5 or C4 era where lead was still probably used. Still worth changing and visibly dirty and your typical old fluid dark, but the old slimy sort of stuff in the pan and coating most everything was mostly gone.

BTW, the other "old" theory was new fluid has a fresh additive pack which would tend to dissolve old built up gunk and such. Sort of saying don't put in fresh stuff because it will dissolve the old chewing gum holding it together. My own view is that was yet another old wives' tale. Extended, it would logically say never change any fluid that has cleansing additive packs, including motor oils probably. More likely, tranny fluid changes often happen when a tranny is acting up, so no surprise some of them go kaputt. But blaming it on the fluid change is sort of like blaming a heart attack on the statins the doctor prescribed you last month or year. Nope--it was the risk factors that triggered the statin Rx in the first place, like the failing tranny performance that leads to a lot of Hail Mary last attempts to fix or band aid. And yep, some lead to heart and tranny failures, but the correlator is the risk factor and profile, not the attempted remedy.

[p3u]

FWIW, I don't buy this, or would say it is closer to a 15 year type dated theory.

Specifically, in the "old days" they used to use lead coated bearing surfaces in key bearing/spinning places in the tranny. Lead of course is soft and itself has certain lubrication properties. It is also a lot of that old slimy and somewhat shimmering stuff you would find in the bottom of the tranny pan from an older vehicle. Well, things changed. If you are familiar with terms like RoHS, industry in general had to convert and phase out lead. Even more stringently in Europe. Thus, having talked live with a senior guy at what is probably the lead U.S. rebuilder and distributor for Audi fitments for ZF (Erikcsson Industries in CT), he told me that as of the D3/C6 era with the six speed, lead was out. The spinning related mating surfaces were then basically steel to steel. He told me how ZF also relied in the newer designs on controlled bleed rates and related pressures in certain parts of the tranny. All that puts a premium on clean fluid at all times during the tranny life. From experience pulling a pan on my D3 six speed a couple of times, I can also tell you directly they indeed were much cleaner at similar miles than the C5 or C4 era where lead was still probably used. Still worth changing and visibly dirty and your typical old fluid dark, but the old slimy sort of stuff in the pan and coating most everything was mostly gone.

BTW, the other "old" theory was new fluid has a fresh additive pack which would tend to dissolve old built up gunk and such. Sort of saying don't put in fresh stuff because it will dissolve the old chewing gum holding it together. My own view is that was yet another old wives' tale. Extended, it would logically say never change any fluid that has cleansing additive packs, including motor oils probably. More likely, tranny fluid changes often happen when a tranny is acting up, so no surprise some of them go kaputt. But blaming it on the fluid change is sort of like blaming a heart attack on the statins the doctor prescribed you last month or year. Nope--it was the risk factors that triggered the statin Rx in the first place, like the failing tranny performance that leads to a lot of Hail Mary last attempts to fix or band aid. And yep, some lead to heart and tranny failures, but the correlator is the risk factor and profile, not the attempted remedy.

There are two reasons why there is validity behind changing fluid can "cause" transmission failure.

You mentioned the new the new fluid and it's additives causing "gunk" to come undone. Not an old wives tale. In transmissions with fluid that has been severely heat cycled and degraded over the years a varish would build up inside the transmission. The detergents in the new fluids could cause the harmless varnish to break off into little chunks. This is where the problem happens.

The varish of sucked through the valve body can clog the orifices and check valves inside them. If this happens line pressure can be severely reduced and cause the clutch packs to burn up.

The other main reason why fluid changed late in a transmissions life could be detrimental is due to the excessive wear from fluid beyond it's own life. Metallic compounds would significantly rise in the transmission fluid due to it no longer lubricating properly. Clutch packs would receive more wear from this additional metal content in the system.

Here's the kicker. The transmission is already toast. You just don't know it because the excessive wear is not only caused from the high metal content, but it is now acting as a friction modifier. Once the fluid is changed and there are no more metal particulates, so you lose the friction modifier. The clutch packs can no longer lock up in their worn state.

[aistis72]

There are two reasons why there is validity behind changing fluid can "cause" transmission failure.

You mentioned the new the new fluid and it's additives causing "gunk" to come undone. Not an old wives tale. In transmissions with fluid that has been severely heat cycled and degraded over the years a varish would build up inside the transmission. The detergents in the new fluids could cause the harmless varnish to break off into little chunks. This is where the problem happens.

The varish of sucked through the valve body can clog the orifices and check valves inside them. If this happens line pressure can be severely reduced and cause the clutch packs to burn up.

The other main reason why fluid changed late in a transmissions life could be detrimental is due to the excessive wear from fluid beyond it's own life. Metallic compounds would significantly rise in the transmission fluid due to it no longer lubricating properly. Clutch packs would receive more wear from this additional metal content in the system.

Here's the kicker. The transmission is already toast. You just don't know it because the excessive wear is not only caused from the high metal content, but it is now acting as a friction modifier. Once the fluid is changed and there are no more metal particulates, so you lose the friction modifier. The clutch packs can no longer lock up in their worn state.

Don’t you think that Audi not thought about changing fluids intervals when making cars and all motor parts? Then they should warn everyone to change oil in transmission let’s say like this 40k miles then 90k miles and so on, but not stating that’s it’s sealed for life. Why then we have engine oil change intervals and not transmission intervals?


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