Killer Chiller or MercRacing Quad Pass HE

[Upstate Audi]

Hey guys, I've got a C7 3.0t and I'm getting ready to go stage 2 DP but I have some questions on the aftermarket supercharger cooling systems

I've seen good things about both the Killer Chiller and the MercRacing Heat Exchanger but I wanted to know what everyone's opinions are on both.

Also,
Does one perform better than the other? Which one would be cheaper for parts and installation costs?

Thanks in advance!

[saxon]

merc racing cheaper

killer chiller should work better but is more expensive and seems finicky to get setup properly

[Upstate Audi]

merc racing cheaper

killer chiller should work better but is more expensive and seems finicky to get setup properly

How much would merc racing cost for all the parts + installation? Also what else do i need to buy other than the heat exchanger?

[bhvrdr]

Both have their places as excellent cooling upgrades for sure (talking about a top notch hx not necessarily just the merc unit.

I've had both although I will admit that didn't get the killer Chiller dialed-in just as perfectly as loe does.

The killer chiller in my opinion is the perfect solution for somebody doing quarter mile or the occasional Street pulls. The only thing differently I would have done with my installation is moved it from the easier to mount passenger side over to the slightly more difficult to mount driver side. That's only because I think it would have given me better air conditioning performance.

That being said the killer Chiller really shines at giving you absolutely incredible starting temperatures. What I mean by that is that if you're sitting there with your car idling and heat soaking for 5 or 10 minutes you'll still get a wonderfully low starting temperature during your wide open throttle run and be able to have a decent ending temperature than as well so you avoid any timing pull and get a really great performing run.

The drawbacks would be that it does take 20 seconds or so to get those intake temperatures back down. So if you were doing road course driving where you're going wide open throttle literally every few seconds or so you could easily overwhelm your system and cause skyrocketing intake temperatures. Some people may experience a reduction in the air conditioning performance as well although hopefully mounting this on the driver side would take care of a lot of that.

A really good heat exchanger setup can really Excel for back-to-back repeated on going wide open throttle runs. I could literally flog my car going back to back to back again and again and again and still obtain intake temperatures in that 65 Celsius range or below. That's something you're just not going to get out of a chiller type setup.

That being said a traditional heat exchanger setup is also not going to give you those really nice low starting temperatures unless you let the car sit for an hour and then you get to run right up to the starting line and do your wide open throttle pull like at a track rental or if you're able to do hot passes also like in a track rental. If you're having to sit with the car idling though you're going to end up starting with much higher intake temperatures than a killer chiller type setup.


Both have their places imo.

Mike

[Upstate Audi]

Both have their places as excellent cooling upgrades for sure (talking about a top notch hx not necessarily just the merc unit.

I've had both although I will admit that didn't get the killer Chiller dialed-in just as perfectly as loe does.

The killer chiller in my opinion is the perfect solution for somebody doing quarter mile or the occasional Street pulls. The only thing differently I would have done with my installation is moved it from the easier to mount passenger side over to the slightly more difficult to mount driver side. That's only because I think it would have given me better air conditioning performance.

That being said the killer Chiller really shines at giving you absolutely incredible starting temperatures. What I mean by that is that if you're sitting there with your car idling and heat soaking for 5 or 10 minutes you'll still get a wonderfully low starting temperature during your wide open throttle run and be able to have a decent ending temperature than as well so you avoid any timing pull and get a really great performing run.

The drawbacks would be that it does take 20 seconds or so to get those intake temperatures back down. So if you were doing road course driving where you're going wide open throttle literally every few seconds or so you could easily overwhelm your system and cause skyrocketing intake temperatures. Some people may experience a reduction in the air conditioning performance as well although hopefully mounting this on the driver side would take care of a lot of that.

A really good heat exchanger setup can really Excel for back-to-back repeated on going wide open throttle runs. I could literally flog my car going back to back to back again and again and again and still obtain intake temperatures in that 65 Celsius range or below. That's something you're just not going to get out of a chiller type setup.

That being said a traditional heat exchanger setup is also not going to give you those really nice low starting temperatures unless you let the car sit for an hour and then you get to run right up to the starting line and do your wide open throttle pull like at a track rental or if you're able to do hot passes also like in a track rental. If you're having to sit with the car idling though you're going to end up starting with much higher intake temperatures than a killer chiller type setup.


Both have their places imo.

Mike

Wow Mike thanks for all the great info. I'm more looking to do more back to back wide open throttle runs and not really quarter mile runs so I think a Heat exchanger would be more preferable. How much usually does a heat exchanger setup cost for parts + labor? And also what else would I need to buy other than the actual heat exchanger?

[bhvrdr]

Wow Mike thanks for all the great info. I'm more looking to do more back to back wide open throttle runs and not really quarter mile runs so I think a Heat exchanger would be more preferable. How much usually does a heat exchanger setup cost for parts + labor? And also what else would I need to buy other than the actual heat exchanger?

Ive missed the S4 forum alot lately so I'm not going to tell you to search the forums lol.

Heat exhangers can be had anywhere from $200 all int to $2000 all in.


For $150 you can get the Merc Racing add-on heat exhanger and run it as a compliment to your current hx. You'd need another 20 bucks worth of brackets and 3/4 on hose and you'd be done. There are some members who have gotten REALLY decent results with this actually. I wouldnt rule it out.


For around $450 I think you can get the Merc Racing quad pass hx that will completely replace yours and likely will work out really well. My understanding is you can get the brackets and everything included now. Just search the merc racing thread and email Jose.


For around $1000 you can get the Revo and/or the APR unit. They are also plug and play and replace your factory hx.


For a bunch more money you can get the full AWE or AMS kits. They give you the heat exchanger, crappy add on water pumps, reservoirs, the whole shebang.


If you were to go the Merc Racing option, you could stop there and run your setup like the OEM non divorced setup with your SC coolant loop connected to the engine coolant loop.


For an extra 20 bucks though you could by an Audi overflow tank for the supercharger loop and divorce the loops...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...oolant-sensors


As far as installation, in general this is a pretty darn easy install. You only need to remove the front bumper. Everything is pretty accessible. The only snag people really hit is stripping out the plastic bleed screws on the supercharger. Order some replacement ones or get some metal ones. If you stop them...dont panic. Just shove a hot screwedriver down into the plastic shaft of the bleed screw and gently turn it out of the hole. Itll work. You could have it installed in a couple hours.

Mike

[CollecTTor]

That being said a traditional heat exchanger setup is also not going to give you those really nice low starting temperatures unless you let the car sit for an hour and then you get to run right up to the starting line and do your wide open throttle pull like at a track rental or if you're able to do hot passes also like in a track rental. If you're having to sit with the car idling though you're going to end up starting with much higher intake temperatures than a killer chiller type setup.

Why has no one really gone with an upgraded HX and a BIG reservoir where ice could be added and the reservoir drained easily for quarter mile duty? Best of both worlds IMO and the route I would go if I was drag racing a daily driven 3.0T.

[bhvrdr]

Why has no one really gone with an upgraded HX and a BIG reservoir where ice could be added and the reservoir drained easily for quarter mile duty? Best of both worlds IMO and the route I would go if I was drag racing a daily driven 3.0T.

I think the answer is only "because nobody has tried it yet" lol. Someone has to be the first.

Loe kicked ass (along with others I am not crediting I am sure) in putting the KC on our cars and it works pretty good.


On our cars there isnt a ton of room up front IMO so you'd need to run coolant lines to the trunk of the car for the ice box and then i'd at the very least try running the upgraded CW100 or a second CWA50 in order to circulate things.

I can see the ice box in the trunk as being an awesome idea for those wanting to break records and not deal with a system that taps into the a/c on the car.

Mike

[brs2c]

Mike, what is crappy about AMS's water pump?

[bhvrdr]

Mike, what is crappy about AMS's water pump?

I shouldnt have trashed on that one actually. The AMS one is actually the better of the aftermarket ones used on our platform but none of them are that good (or as good as even our OEM CW50). The APR one and AWE ones are junk... or more like hobby pumps.

From Geoff...
Pump APR uses: Jabsco
https://www.amazon.com/Jabsco-50840-...=1&*entries*=0

Pump AMS uses: Varimax
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/l...KtLDjS5hF8u3Px XlycuJT2mx4AaApnz8P8HAQ

Pump AWE uses: Meziere'
http://www.jegs.com/i/Meziere/680/WP...rentProductId=


From me....

The OEM Pierburg CWA-50 indicates: Capacity with 20ft head, 8.7 psi, 0.6 bar: 24 liters per minute = 6.3gpm

The Varimax at around the same 8.7psi head indicates approx: 7gpm

http://www.lingenfelter.com/forum_li...esting-results

Now that was real world testing. If you go buy the varimiax specs like we go by the OEM Pierburg specs you get for the Varimax... 720 LPH @ 70 kPa = 3.3gpm at 10psi pressure

http://paceperformance.com/attachmen...ionDetails.pdf

The Jabsco/Meziere type pumps appear to cut out flow altogether around 6 to 7psi head pressure. 0 gpm

http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/file...43000_0820.pdf


All pumps are rated at zero pressure and then usually they provide flow charts at different pressures. The important things to know is that not all pumps respond to pressure the same way. Some cut flow much more than others.

The second important thing to know is that we do have head pressure on our pumps.


In other words a 700lph pump COULD conceivably out flow a 1100lph pump installed in your car with your head pressure.


So we need to look at the tables provided with each pump and how they respond to head pressures. Some are really better suited for home aquariums where there is little restricting flow compared to ... say... a person running pressure through a dual to quad pass hx then up through two separate dual pass intercoolers.


I'm still researching but judging by the rated pressures the Jabsco and Mezieres are not as good as stock to use at all. The varimax is probably similar to stock.

[Upstate Audi]

Ive missed the S4 forum alot lately so I'm not going to tell you to search the forums lol.

Heat exhangers can be had anywhere from $200 all int to $2000 all in.


For $150 you can get the Merc Racing add-on heat exhanger and run it as a compliment to your current hx. You'd need another 20 bucks worth of brackets and 3/4 on hose and you'd be done. There are some members who have gotten REALLY decent results with this actually. I wouldnt rule it out.


For around $450 I think you can get the Merc Racing quad pass hx that will completely replace yours and likely will work out really well. My understanding is you can get the brackets and everything included now. Just search the merc racing thread and email Jose.


For around $1000 you can get the Revo and/or the APR unit. They are also plug and play and replace your factory hx.


For a bunch more money you can get the full AWE or AMS kits. They give you the heat exchanger, crappy add on water pumps, reservoirs, the whole shebang.


If you were to go the Merc Racing option, you could stop there and run your setup like the OEM non divorced setup with your SC coolant loop connected to the engine coolant loop.


For an extra 20 bucks though you could by an Audi overflow tank for the supercharger loop and divorce the loops...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...oolant-sensors


As far as installation, in general this is a pretty darn easy install. You only need to remove the front bumper. Everything is pretty accessible. The only snag people really hit is stripping out the plastic bleed screws on the supercharger. Order some replacement ones or get some metal ones. If you stop them...dont panic. Just shove a hot screwedriver down into the plastic shaft of the bleed screw and gently turn it out of the hole. Itll work. You could have it installed in a couple hours.

Mike

Once again thank you for all the great information. I'm fairly positive I'm gonna stick with one of the Merc Racing heat exchangers and also keep the system non divorced. How much of a difference is there between having the smaller add on unit versus replacing the stock HE with the quad pass one? I'm really just trying to have more fun with the car and don't expect to go too crazy with it. I'm assuming if I do the add on it just drops right in front of the oem one?

Also it looks like your right about installation. I can probably get it done myself. Thanks for the tip about the bleed screws.

[CollecTTor]

The important things to know is that not all pumps respond to pressure the same way. Some cut flow much more than others.

The second important thing to know is that we do have head pressure on our pumps.


In other words a 700lph pump COULD conceivably out flow a 1100lph pump installed in your car with your head pressure.


So we need to look at the tables provided with each pump and how they respond to head pressures. ressures the Jabsco and Mezieres are not as good as stock to use at all. The varimax is probably similar to stock.

But if you leave the OEM pump in place and are adding a second pump (and doing the OEM pump wiring mod), wouldn't that remove most of the head pressure as you now have two pumps feeding each other in a closed loop?

[bhvrdr]

But if you leave the OEM pump in place and are adding a second pump (and doing the OEM pump wiring mod), wouldn't that remove most of the head pressure as you now have two pumps feeding each other in a closed loop?

Im no engineer but i'd guess it would divided it up somehow depending on placement but youre going to be adding a ton of new head pressure by adding a run of... what... maybe 12-16 feet total of coolant hose to go back and forth from the trunk. Honestly I'd probably just try stuff out and see what works. Shit buy stuff on amazon prime so you can return it if it doesnt work out lol.

Mike

[Works2shoot]

Once again thank you for all the great information. I'm fairly positive I'm gonna stick with one of the Merc Racing heat exchangers and also keep the system non divorced. How much of a difference is there between having the smaller add on unit versus replacing the stock HE with the quad pass one? I'm really just trying to have more fun with the car and don't expect to go too crazy with it. I'm assuming if I do the add on it just drops right in front of the oem one?

Also it looks like your right about installation. I can probably get it done myself. Thanks for the tip about the bleed screws.

It is put in place of OEM. Now that you've gotten the basics, go over and read the merc racing thread, and the others regarding cooling. You'll understand them better now.

[CollecTTor]

Im no engineer but i'd guess it would divided it up somehow depending on placement but youre going to be adding a ton of new head pressure by adding a run of... what... maybe 12-16 feet total of coolant hose to go back and forth from the trunk. Honestly I'd probably just try stuff out and see what works. Shit buy stuff on amazon prime so you can return it if it doesnt work out lol.

Mike

Well I am an engineer and yes the line length will add head pressure, but this is similar to running an inline booster fuel pump. The second pump will flow more than their specs when being fed pressurized flow. As you pointed out, the OEM pump still maintains 6gpm at over 8 psi head pressure. So it is still maintaining positive pressure which will still be present on the second pump inlet (and same is true vice versa since they are in series in a closed loop), so the pumps aren't having to be gravity fed or pull their own supply as they have positive pressure at the inlet. The pump is essentially just a compressor and operates on it's fluid at a known pressure ratio (assuming constant voltage), then positive pressure at inlet means more pressure at outlet, which results in more flow for both pumps. Unfortunately the S5 isn't my "toy" right now so I can't experiment with this type of setup, but it "should" work like I've described. I'm just not keen on "chemical" cooling as I prefer a (continuously) permanent "upgrade". That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

[brs2c]

Great information Mike.

Great explanation/validation CollecTTor.

Thanks for spending the time!