2012 A4 still runs and drives, Audi says it needs an entire new engine? Help!

[BAY 78]

I’m in a tough situation right now, but is where I’m at and I would really appreciate some genuine help for this situation with my A4.

2012 A4 FrontTrak
95,119 miles
CAEB Engine

No major oil consumption issues, just a top off every 1,000 - 1,500 miles or so. PCV Valve was replaced by Audi a while back. Car ran beautifully until the CEL.

Car still starts runs and drives (roughly) around a parking lot, I haven’t started it in a while just to make sure not to make anything worse than it already is.

CEL + EPC Light flashing while driving
Started to shake, pulled off to the side had it towed to Audi.
While waiting for the truck, I decided to poke around and found that the Cylinder 1 spark plug was covered in oil. I thought it was a bad injector, which is covered under the extended warranty, but this is what the report read:

“Internal Mechanical Failure in Cylinder 1, No Compression
Scanned Vehicle Misfire: Static Cylinder 1. Intermittent Cylinder 3
Swapped Coils and Plugs, Misfires still in same location.
Disconnected and performed compression testing.
Cylinder 1 - 30 PSI
Cylinder 2 ~ 160 PSI
Cylinder 3 ~ 160 PSI
Cylinder 4 ~ 160 PSI

Recommendations: Engine Failed, Cyl #1 Piston/Cylinder Damaged
New Audi Engine/Used Engine”

The head wasn't taken off during the diagnosis as far as I know, they just used a borescope to come to the conclusions. I'm looking to find out what options are out there:

-Rebuild?
-If it can be rebuilt, what parts can be saved/needs to be bought?
-Hours of labor - engine replacement
-Hours of labor - engine rebuild

I get that a ton will have to be done no doubt, it’s just really hard for me to wrap my head around the fact that the car needs an ENTIRE new engine, given that it still can start up and move around. I understand it’s not practical, but I’m looking for the best way to go about this in the most cost effective way. I am still making payments so my only choice is to get it back on the road as soon as possible.

I know there’s a ton of “shoulda, woulda, coulda” but at this point that literally does nothing so please, save it for somewhere else. Any insight, links to other threads/personal experience is greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[B44]

you should have a independant german shop quote you. Also if the dealership does not want to waste time looking for a small fix so if there is a way you can move the car to a temporary location and figure out if it really needs engine replacement. Also if you do decide to go with the dealership then atleast you have 12000 mile warranty on the work.

[doc_oc]

Did they give you an estimated cost?

In order to make a decision you need to diagnose further. Is it a bent valve? Was there contact between piston and valve?
It might be as easy as a head rebuilt only, which can be 500-1000, or a used head from a scrap yard.
If cylinder/piston are damaged...it gets more complicated.
Since you do have some oil consumption, maybe it's worth looking into an engine swap. Problem is, dealer will be around 8k for a replacement.
If you search eBay for LKQ 2.0 Audi engine...you should find a decent mileage engine for 2 to 3.5k. Then add 1-2k for a swap at an indie shop.
Also, you can use a CPMA/CPMB with just minor swaps from your old engine. Search here and you will find what I'm talking about.
I'm doing a swap myself from CAEB to CPMA. I paid 3.5 for a 2015 11k mile engine.
Good luck with your decision.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Dr. Awesome]

If it was a timing chain failure and they boroscoped and saw scoring or smashed valves, I could see it, but I agree you should get an indy shop to check it out. It's well worth the cash up front to know for sure than to spend it on a dealership replacement. If you do, you should definitely go for a used B8.5 engine and either do it yourself (if you have the time/resources) or have the indy shop do it.

[pedro sr.]

If the exhaust-valve has been burned away it is beyond repair.

http://www.hartogtuning.nl/images_content/DSCF2164.JPG

http://www.hartogtuning.nl/images_content/DSCF2172.JPG

[flowhigh]

Just went through this with my late B7 hence I'm now here a B8.5 owner - glutton for punishment or a masochist.

So you pulled bank 1 plug while you were waiting for the tow? Impressive that you'd carry tools with you.

Did you find out if they saw exactly what was reported? To me it seems that they are saying that there was both piston and cylinder damage at the end of the report. But in the earlier portion it looks like they're diagnosing without an actual visual. So if they did indeed borescope find out if they did confirm piston and cylinder damage.

I did my own compression check and I had zero compression on cylinder 3 with the rest being around 160. I borescoped and there was no damage to piston head and no cylinder scoring. At that point I deducted that it was a valve issue and not sure if it was intake or exhaust. Could've been chipped, burnt, bad valve guide or stuck. I was chasing a lean condition due to un-metered air for a long time. I was driving hard one day then BAM!....engine knock then misfire central. I called around a number of shops and most either would not call me back or refused to work on such a job. The head would've been removed and dismantled to check. The one mechanic that did seem to have knowledge of Audi's based his quote off the info that gave and it was a three grand job - nearly 1K just to open everything up, with the possibility of being closer to 3k or more for the repair depending on the damage.

The A4 was driving barely but was misfiring HARD. So much that I was getting clutch slip codes on vagcom. I was at the price point of just buying another car. It was a mess since I couldn't even trade it in and no way did I have the time to part-out. Would've just repaired it myself in that case and have it be a learning process since all my wrenching has been peripheral of the block.

Check if there's a possibility of goodwill assistance from Audi of America. Probably a long shot, but worth pursuing. If not then pass on a rebuild if there's cylinder damage. Buy a good motor and have it dropped in if you can. It won't be inexpensive I'm sure you know. Even if you do this on your own, won't be easy if you haven't gone that deep; time is money too.

I feel for ya man, you'll get through it.

[ducati]

If I was you if Audi does nothing to help cut your losses and sell the car as-is or trade it in.

[mtroxel]

That compression test tells a lot. You'll never make power out of cyl 1. End of story.

As to why? That borosope might tell a lot too. Did you ask the dealer what they saw? If they poked in there and saw some damage to the piston and a bent valve, then at their labor rates a used or re-manned motor might be the cheapest. I'd go back and ask more questions about what the boroscope saw. They owe you a better explanation than those words you posted above. If this is just a head job, you can do that, or hire an indy to do it for way the hell less than a new/used motor.

[pedro sr.]

Ask for the video-file, most cams do record.

[ELaw]

One or more bent valves would be better than trouble farther down in the engine since you don't have to tear the entire engine apart to fix it. For some reason I don't see it discussed here much, but you can get a whole brand-new head with valves from ECS for about $1,200.

But... I see in cylinder 1 you've got *some* compression, and although anything's possible, all the engines I've ever seen with bent valves had absolutely zero compression in the affected cylinders. So my best guess is the problem is farther down in the motor - possibly a broken piston ring? That in turn could cause scoring on the cylinder bore which *might* justify scrapping the engine. But that's only if it's really bad... light scoring can be dealt with by honing the cylinder(s).

[mtroxel]

But... I see in cylinder 1 you've got *some* compression, and although anything's possible, all the engines I've ever seen with bent valves had absolutely zero compression in the affected cylinders. So my best guess is the problem is farther down in the motor - possibly a broken piston ring?

That was my thought. Bent valve = 0 compression. And its rare that bent valves are isolated to just one cylinder. The dealer might be right, but you need more explanation.

[Zach L]

Own a Type 2?

[Zach L]

It would be a mistake to do a rebuild. Not only would it be less reliable than a factory assembled engine, but it'd be more expensive.

You WANT an entire 'new' used engine. Pick one up from LKQ from a wrecked car. They sell on eBay for $2-2.5k and come with a warranty and delivery. A swap is less labor as it doesn't take much to swap out an engine. The used engine will be more reliable than a rebuilt one.

[blbroo]

It would be a mistake to do a rebuild. Not only would it be less reliable than a factory assembled engine, but it'd be more expensive.

You WANT an entire 'new' used engine. Pick one up from LKQ from a wrecked car. They sell on eBay for $2-2.5k and come with a warranty and delivery. A swap is less labor as it doesn't take much to swap out an engine. The used engine will be more reliable than a rebuilt one.

Do that ^^
Just a couple of items need moved from the B8 motor to a B8.5 for it to work perfectly.

[BAY 78]

Thank you everyone for all your input and advice! If my memory serves me correctly, they explained it as an issue with the "piston skirt". I've contacted them to see if they still have the video or anything on hand that can tell more than words on a piece of paper.

That borosope might tell a lot too. Did you ask the dealer what they saw? If they poked in there and saw some damage to the piston and a bent valve, then at their labor rates a used or re-manned motor might be the cheapest. I'd go back and ask more questions about what the boroscope saw. They owe you a better explanation than those words you posted above. If this is just a head job, you can do that, or hire an indy to do it for way the hell less than a new/used motor.

you should have a independant german shop quote you. Also if the dealership does not want to waste time looking for a small fix so if there is a way you can move the car to a temporary location and figure out if it really needs engine replacement. Also if you do decide to go with the dealership then atleast you have 12000 mile warranty on the work.

That's what i'm looking into right now. Definitely going indy and not through the dealership. I haven't had anyone call back just yet after letting them know what the situation is, we'll see.

If it was a timing chain failure and they boroscoped and saw scoring or smashed valves, I could see it, but I agree you should get an indy shop to check it out. It's well worth the cash up front to know for sure than to spend it on a dealership replacement. If you do, you should definitely go for a used B8.5 engine and either do it yourself (if you have the time/resources) or have the indy shop do it.

Did they give you an estimated cost?

I'm doing a swap myself from CAEB to CPMA. I paid 3.5 for a 2015 11k mile engine.

Are you doing the swap yourself or having an indy shop handle some of the load? I've checked out lettuce's thread, and it really doesn't seem all too bad. I wish I had the capacity/time to do it myself

Dealership quoted me $8-$10k for the whole thing with a used engine. At that point, I said i'm just gonna roll the dice and test my resourcefulness LOL.

It would be a mistake to do a rebuild. Not only would it be less reliable than a factory assembled engine, but it'd be more expensive.

You WANT an entire 'new' used engine. Pick one up from LKQ from a wrecked car. They sell on eBay for $2-2.5k and come with a warranty and delivery. A swap is less labor as it doesn't take much to swap out an engine. The used engine will be more reliable than a rebuilt one.

I've been looking at LKQ. From what it's looking like I'm most likely going to go with the swap route, but still deciding on a B8 or B8.5 donor. I probably won't pull the trigger until a shop that I find is willing to go through with the little bits of the "conversion." From experience, what's the likelihood that a shop would be willing to take on the swap to a B8.5? It seems like everyone that's done it on here has done it themselves or knows someone who's willing.

So you pulled bank 1 plug while you were waiting for the tow? Impressive that you'd carry tools with you.

Did you find out if they saw exactly what was reported? To me it seems that they are saying that there was both piston and cylinder damage at the end of the report. But in the earlier portion it looks like they're diagnosing without an actual visual. So if they did indeed borescope find out if they did confirm piston and cylinder damage.

Even if you do this on your own, won't be easy if you haven't gone that deep; time is money too.

I feel for ya man, you'll get through it.

Boy Scouts or being a VW owner teaches you to be prepared I guess, LOL. Thanks man, I'll get through it somehow for sure! New college grad starting a new job, and also an under 25 driver (rental cars) makes out to a HUGE bill that just keeps growing the longer that i'm immobile.

But... I see in cylinder 1 you've got *some* compression, and although anything's possible, all the engines I've ever seen with bent valves had absolutely zero compression in the affected cylinders. So my best guess is the problem is farther down in the motor - possibly a broken piston ring? That in turn could cause scoring on the cylinder bore which *might* justify scrapping the engine. But that's only if it's really bad... light scoring can be dealt with by honing the cylinder(s).

That's exactly what I was thinking. Currently waiting on an update from whoever's willing to take on the job, or at least remove the head to see what's really going on in there.

As soon as I move onto the next step, I will be sure to post an update. Until then definitely keep the ideas flowing everyone! Much appreciated

[Spawne32]

It would be a mistake to do a rebuild. Not only would it be less reliable than a factory assembled engine, but it'd be more expensive.

You WANT an entire 'new' used engine. Pick one up from LKQ from a wrecked car. They sell on eBay for $2-2.5k and come with a warranty and delivery. A swap is less labor as it doesn't take much to swap out an engine. The used engine will be more reliable than a rebuilt one.

You guys don't know how to rebuild engines around these parts do you? lol

[doc_oc]

You guys don't know how to rebuild engines around these parts do you? lol

There is too many things that can go wrong. And it is more expensive to rebuild/replace than buy a used low mileage one.
In my case (low oil pressure at idle) if I replace the oil pump, intake cam and cam bridge and the balance shafts, it costs more than the engine I got.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Spawne32]

There is too many things that can go wrong. And it is more expensive to rebuild/replace than buy a used low mileage one.
In my case (low oil pressure at idle) if I replace the oil pump, intake cam and cam bridge and the balance shafts, it costs more than the engine I got.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

I've never seen a single one of these CAEB engines below 2700 dollars at the local yards, most of them averaging about 3500-4000 with under 100k on them. Where exactly are you guys getting these engines at that they cost less then the price to rebuild it entirely.

[doc_oc]

I've never seen a single one of these CAEB engines below 2700 dollars at the local yards, most of them averaging about 3500-4000 with under 100k on them. Where exactly are you guys getting these engines at that they cost less then the price to rebuild it entirely.

You're right. Most of the time they are expensive...but keep looking.
I got a 2015 with 11k miles on for 2610 USD. Some of the more expensive ones come with a turbo.


Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[B8_Dude97]

I've never seen a single one of these CAEB engines below 2700 dollars at the local yards, most of them averaging about 3500-4000 with under 100k on them. Where exactly are you guys getting these engines at that they cost less then the price to rebuild it entirely.

I find b8.5(caed cpma cpmb) all day for 1.8-2.6k all day with around 50k on the clock sometimes with turbo. Just gotta search good



Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[Zach L]

You guys don't know how to rebuild engines around these parts do you? lol

The only rebuilt engines I've put in my cars are ones I've rebuilt myself, but I don't have the time to rebuild someone else's engine.

Anytime I've met someone that has (or had) a rebuilt engine in their car, the car either burns a ton of oil or has already had another internal failure. As others have said, it's not cost effective and more importantly it's not time effective anyway. Most people don't have several spare cars to drive around like I do.

[Tyler8]

Are you doing the swap yourself or having an indy shop handle some of the load? I've checked out lettuce's thread, and it really doesn't seem all too bad. I wish I had the capacity/time to do it myself

Dealership quoted me $8-$10k for the whole thing with a used engine. At that point, I said i'm just gonna roll the dice and test my resourcefulness LOL.

I just had a B8.5 engine swapped into my 2010 by a shop called 32 Motorsports in Wallingford, CT. He was more than happy to do the small tweaks because the B8.5 engine is far more reliable, no oil consumption issues and way less likely to have timing chain tensioner issues. I picked up a 2013 engine with 36k miles from LKQ for $2,800


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

[cjc]

I thought it was a bad injector, which is covered under the extended warranty, but this is what the report read:

Wait, so this wouldn't be covered under your extended warranty? I have an extended warranty and now I wonder what use it would be.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Audizine mobile app

[pedro sr.]

That was my thought. Bent valve = 0 compression. And its rare that bent valves are isolated to just one cylinder. The dealer might be right, but you need more explanation.

No, allmost all bent valves in these engines end up having around 3 bar pressure left. They bent easy, but there is allways some comression pressure left, unless you remove them or cut them or have been burned completely.

[mtroxel]

They bent easy, but there is allways some comression pressure left, unless you remove them or cut them or have been burned completely.

So would you say they either bend very slightly, or they just snap off completely?

[pedro sr.]

Never seen them snapped, just burned (exhaust) and bent (intake), but even if it makes no contact at all (stuck in valve-guide), there is still compression, not much, around 3 bar, but it's there.

[mtroxel]

Never seen them snapped, just burned (exhaust) and bent (intake), but even if it makes no contact at all (stuck in valve-guide), there is still compression, not much, around 3 bar, but it's there.

I've seen 'em snapped off on the old 2.8 V6. Forced a piston right through the wall: motor was a lost cause.

[pedro sr.]

I've seen 'em snapped off on the old 2.8 V6. Forced a piston right through the wall: motor was a lost cause.

For sure! But not yet in the engines specified in this topic.