limits of 4.0t and 7-speed stronic trans???

[mrb5_supra_wrx]

Trying to find some factional info on this subject. ive searched to no avail but has anyone found out true limits so the 7-speed trans over the zf in the rs7?

[brian_216]

Dont think its been found yet. In for more info.

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[mrb5_supra_wrx]

Dont think its been found yet. In for more info.

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Well what's the highest numbers that have been made so far

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[brian_216]

Bigger question to ask, who has had a stage 3 car the longest / most miles

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[shoe3k]

I haven't seen posts where people who are tuned having issues. I think I see more axle problems than the DSG when it comes to limits.

[Yeoman]

The 7sp DSG used in the S6/7 is rated at max 450ft/lb of torque. This obviously doesn't mean it can't be exceeded, but to maintain reliability and longevity Audi has set that number as the max.
The ZF is rated at 660Ft/lb

[mrb5_supra_wrx]

The 7sp DSG used in the S6/7 is rated at max 450ft/lb of torque. This obviously doesn't mean it can't be exceeded, but to maintain reliability and longevity Audi has set that number as the max.
The ZF is rated at 660Ft/lb

I've seen what they are "rated" at but what the max people are doin with them currently. Like I know their are stage 3 cars but are they having trouble with the torque or what's the highest numbers so far

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[soccerking93]

That 660 or actually 663 is the theoretical limit of the ZF 8HP90. The 90 is for 900nm of torque which equals 663 ft-lbs. Only Audi's highest torque models (turbo diesels) have this transmission. The RS7 and S8 use the 8HP70 which is only rated for 700nm or 516-lbs of torque; it's no coincidence that the RS7 and S8's factory torque numbers are this exact number.

The DL501 is actually rated for 406.6 lb ft (550 Nm) at 9000 rpm. Again, no coincidence that the S6 and S7 have advertised torque figures of 406 ft-lbs...

The 7sp DSG used in the S6/7 is rated at max 450ft/lb of torque. This obviously doesn't mean it can't be exceeded, but to maintain reliability and longevity Audi has set that number as the max.
The ZF is rated at 660Ft/lb

[DGVR6]

Rs7 p models have 556 ft lb

[soccerking93]

Not sustained though; it's an "overboost" feature only. Only available for a few seconds. That's how they're still able to justify not exceeding ZF's advertised max. torque ratings. Same thing that Porsche has been doing for the past decade or two.

"Highlights: The RS7 Performance adds carbon ceramic brakes, a new sport suspension, a new front end treatment and unique tailpipes over the 'basic' RS7. It makes 516 lb-ft of torque to go along with its 605 hp, but with the overboost function drivers can get an extra 37 lb-ft for short amounts of time. The RS7 performance model sprints from 0 to 60 mph in just 3.6 seconds and reaches a top track speed of 190 mph."

Read more: http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...#ixzz509DJMtEO

Rs7 p models have 556 ft lb

[Marc R]

My Stg 3 is now doing 820Nm of torque(approx 610 ft lb), no issues with trans in term of "in gear" performance, however the engaging point is a thing that irritates me.

This has been present on the car since I have it, so also BEFORE the tuning, i dont see this as a tuning related issue but more of something that this specific to this trans because more people seem to have this issue with the 7 speed S-Tronic.

TBH this makes me looking at an RS6 earlier than I thought at first

From what I read the RS6/RS7/S8 tiptronic doesn't have the clutch issue

[VVG]

That 660 or actually 663 is the theoretical limit of the ZF 8HP90. The 90 is for 900nm of torque which equals 663 ft-lbs. Only Audi's highest torque models (turbo diesels) have this transmission. The RS7 and S8 use the 8HP70 which is only rated for 700nm or 516-lbs of torque; it's no coincidence that the RS7 and S8's factory torque numbers are this exact number.

The DL501 is actually rated for 406.6 lb ft (550 Nm) at 9000 rpm. Again, no coincidence that the S6 and S7 have advertised torque figures of 406 ft-lbs...

And therein is the likely factor in why the DSG in the S6/7 can handle so much torque in a tuned state without a problem. The mechanical strain of 406 lb-ft at 9000 rpm is far more than 600 +/- lb-ft at 5000 rpm.

[pez81]

I read that the next rs6/7 Will go back to an s tronic box so can't be weak if on that are. My stage 1 s6 is making over 600flbs and no issues and I beat on it.

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[Ze_Nardo6]

My Stg 3 is now doing 820Nm of torque(approx 610 ft lb), no issues with trans in term of "in gear" performance, however the engaging point is a thing that irritates me.

This has been present on the car since I have it, so also BEFORE the tuning, i dont see this as a tuning related issue but more of something that this specific to this trans because more people seem to have this issue with the 7 speed S-Tronic.

TBH this makes me looking at an RS6 earlier than I thought at first

From what I read the RS6/RS7/S8 tiptronic doesn't have the clutch issue

Marc, how is your stage 3 car only making 610 torque?

[Dasquade]

From what i know, Marc still needs to go in for final tune (bought same cooler as me but still has to install it). Once that is done he was going to head back to the tuner and fine tune further.

My stage 2 pulled over 890Nm. But we reduced it to 877Nm, 587ehp, 527whp.

[Dasquade]

@Marc: did you try the vcds clutch recalibration? Also didnt found the time to do it :(.

[pez81]

From what i know, Marc still needs to go in for final tune (bought same cooler as me but still has to install it). Once that is done he was going to head back to the tuner and fine tune further.

My stage 2 pulled over 890Nm. But we reduced it to 877Nm, 587ehp, 527whp.

Don't JD advertise those figures for stage1 1 or 2? 820nm is low for stage 3

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[Dasquade]

Don't JD advertise those figures for stage1 1 or 2? 820nm is low for stage 3

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Like said, they did his RS turbo's and put a temp tune on it :).
From what i think, they did gave it enough boost etc at the high rpms (afaik where you get your max. HP) but kept the boost lower at low-mid rpms (afaik where you get your max. torque).

JD's S6 (semi converted RS6 avant with stage3) is claimed to pull 720Hp (not sure if that is WHP). I forgot to ask what torque they set it at.

[Marc R]

Dasquade is corrct, my IAT were too high, bought that cooler and still need to go back to re-tune it....that is why.

But the car feels fast and runs like a champ tbh


JD's S6 initially had 750 HP

[richib86]

Bigger question to ask, who has had a stage 3 car the longest / most miles

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about 22,000 miles on my setup and completely hiccup free, launch on the street a bunch and a few times on the strip. no slipping, bucking or tall engagment points(i have the TCU tune too)

[Ze_Nardo6]

Spero has been stage 3 the longest and claims zero issues as well. I believe he's going on 24+ months now.

I still haven't attempted launch control since getting flashed stage 3. I lowered the launch RPM to 4k, we'll see how it does

[nefkntym]

Subbed for more updates and info.

[mrb5_supra_wrx]

Has anyone figured the math on what the equivalent of the torment the trans would be taking at 406 lb-ft at 9000 vs what it would be at a lower rpm? Such closer to redline. Maybe could figure a better average number to base the max torque numbers. Being of course we wont make it to 9000 rpm but i better the trans could maybe hold 6-700hp at 6500 like its been but im sure theres some math that could be done to give us better numbers. I would do it but i hate math lmao

[soccerking93]

Why would the trans have a different torque rating at 6500 than 9000? I don't see how that would change based on RPM.

[wwhan]

Why would the trans have a different torque rating at 6500 than 9000? I don't see how that would change based on RPM.

406 ft lbs at 9000 rpm = 696 hp

406 ft lbs at 6500 rpm = 502 hp

http://www.metaris.com/hp-relations.php

[soccerking93]

Right but what I think you guys are missing is the simple fact that transmissions are rated in terms of torque, not horsepower. It's not horsepower at 6500 or 9000 RPMs that's the problem, it's torque at lower RPM. This is why you often see tuners capping torque and making it a very gradual curve on certain cars that are running stock components. It's because it's torque at low RPMs, not HP at higher RPM that kills clutches and transmissions. The 406 ft-lbs number is what the manufacturer has deemed the max. torque capacity after taking into account all kinds of different factors. Now whether or not this is conservative and can be exceeded is certainly up for debate. But Audi has been sure to not exceed this 406 number on any DL501 equipped cars at ANY RPM.

406 ft lbs at 9000 rpm = 696 hp

406 ft lbs at 6500 rpm = 502 hp

http://www.metaris.com/hp-relations.php

[pez81]

Right but what I think you guys are missing is the simple fact that transmissions are rated in terms of torque, not horsepower. It's not horsepower at 6500 or 9000 RPMs that's the problem, it's torque at lower RPM. This is why you often see tuners capping torque and making it a very gradual curve on certain cars that are running stock components. It's because it's torque at low RPMs, not HP at higher RPM that kills clutches and transmissions. The 406 ft-lbs number is what the manufacturer has deemed the max. torque capacity after taking into account all kinds of different factors. Now whether or not this is conservative and can be exceeded is certainly up for debate. But Audi has been sure to not exceed this 406 number on any DL501 equipped cars at ANY RPM.

I don't think you're right here. they probably choose 9000rpm at 420 because that's what they have tested at without failure. like someone said 420lbs at 9000rpm is way higher than that. that's my guess. looks like audi is going back to the dual clutch for the next rs6/7 so can't be that weak. also many have been running over 600ft lbs for years with no issues. until someone destroys theirs there is no real way of knowing

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[soccerking93]

I'm sorry but this is a completely inaccurate statement. The lower the RPM, the more strain the same torque will have on components such as the transmission.

The mechanical strain of 406 lb-ft at 9000 rpm is far more than 600 +/- lb-ft at 5000 rpm.

[soccerking93]

You're assuming the next RS6/7 will have the DL501 which it most definitely will not. I'm not saying all dual clutch transmissions are weak, only that a max. 406 ft-lbs of torque rating at 9,000 RPMs doesn't mean the transmission can withstand more torque at a lower RPM using the same manufacturer's rating. Like I said, it's certainly debatable whether or not that 406 number is conservative and can be exceeded. The Germans have very high durability standards. The transmission has to last x number of KM under x, x, and x conditions.

I don't think you're right here. they probably choose 9000rpm at 420 because that's what they have tested at without failure. like someone said 420lbs at 9000rpm is way higher than that. that's my guess. looks like audi is going back to the dual clutch for the next rs6/7 so can't be that weak. also many have been running over 600ft lbs for years with no issues. until someone destroys theirs there is no real way of knowing

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[Ze_Nardo6]

Now whether or not this is conservative and can be exceeded is certainly up for debate. But Audi has been sure to not exceed this 406 number on any DL501 equipped cars at ANY RPM.

There's no debate that the DSG can handle more than 406 ft/lbs for extended periods of time. But I agree that the magic number or range is yet to be seen. Guys have been running over 600 ft'lbs for multiple years driving the piss out of their cars without trans failures or even issues. The weak link for these cars are the axles. Those will always go before the trans with these cars

[jsilas]

@Marc: did you try the vcds clutch recalibration? Also didnt found the time to do it :(.

Can I get some cliffs on this? I’ve not heard of this, and my Stage II car S6 is exhibiting some strange shifting and clutch engagement behavior. Would love to learn. More about what I could achieve with VCDS...

[Dasquade]

Can I get some cliffs on this? I’ve not heard of this, and my Stage II car S6 is exhibiting some strange shifting and clutch engagement behavior. Would love to learn. More about what I could achieve with VCDS...

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ce-Calibration

[nefkntym]

Why would the trans have a different torque rating at 6500 than 9000? I don't see how that would change based on RPM.

Angular Momentum

[pez81]

Angular Momentum

there's always someone smarter. thanks Mr science guy! didn't know the terminology

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[jsilas]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ce-Calibration

Many thanks, sir

[Dirty_Bourbon]

Can i get an update on this- who's got high mileage w/ Stage 2 or greater.... Any issues?

[Dasquade]

99.1xxkm here, forgot at what km i went to stage 2 but roughly 15.000-20.000km i think, before stage 1 at around 40.000km i think.
Beside known and obvious clutch wear (recalibrated once), no issues at all here :). As a mather of fact (bit unrelated tough), she is driving super smooth again since i swapped the NGK race plugs out and put OEM "M" revision plugs and milltek X pipe. No longer stutter at 4.000rpm/low-semi boost.
Overall beside one faulty turbo pressure sensor, no other drama :).

[vman932]

APR has a C7 S6 they use for development. I can't imagine there are many people (if any) that put as many *hard* miles on a 4.0 DSG as they do. I think they said they have put ~30k miles on it and it has 70k~80k total miles with no transmission issues.

[1flossedS4]

This is why I bought an RS7 with the ZF. It's a stronger unit.

Bigger problem is the engine issues with turbos on the 4.0t in my opinion.

[s4nicetry]

This is why I bought an RS7 with the ZF. It's a stronger unit.

Bigger problem is the engine issues with turbos on the 4.0t in my opinion.

Easily fixable though, just install the updated feeder screen, shorten your OCI and use good oil, you'll be good for a long time. (Hopefully forever, we'll see.)