Questions about buying pre owned from Audi dealer

[MidnightNarwhal]

Hey

I visited a used S5 today and the salesman didn't fully answer my question on the subject.

So Audi dealers can sell the cars Certified Plus which gives you warranty and you know for sure no issues with the car. But if you buy a used car from them without it being Certified Plus is it like buying from any non major name used dealership in the sense that should you get an independent PPI on it or there is still a level of it still being a good car ready to go?

[JoshDub]

All used cars, CPO or not, carry the risk of being problematic. You should always have a PPI done by a disinterested 3rd party (as well as YOU paying for it, don't let the dealer pay for it). CPO just gives you a warranty as well as a modest look over. There could very well be underlying body damage, mechanical damage, or prior neglect with CPO cars.

To answer you question, a non CPO car from Audi is like buying it from any other dealer.

[ICU2]

Hey

I visited a used S5 today and the salesman didn't fully answer my question on the subject.

So Audi dealers can sell the cars Certified Plus which gives you warranty and you know for sure no issues with the car. But if you buy a used car from them without it being Certified Plus is it like buying from any non major name used dealership in the sense that should you get an independent PPI on it or there is still a level of it still being a good car ready to go?

Absolutely get a PPI. Just because it is an Audi dealership & the car is from the same brand means little. I'm not sure what Certified Plus is (Perhaps it is the same thing as Certified Pre-Owned in the States) but I assume it means the same as CPO, which removes most of the concerns regarding potential warranty issues. As close to full proofing a car from catastrophic failures & massive repair bills coming your way, IMHO. IIRC, stateside, an Audi "Qualifies" for CPO status provided it is still w/in the original Factory Warranty, remains in stock configuration (hasn't been modified), no accidents & has less than 50,000 miles. After that it is a matter of paying to get the car certified, which again state side is ~ $2000.00. Mileage, service history & overall condition usually tell the "story" of the car & how it was cared or not cared for. A PPI for a few hundred $'s from a trusted local Indy shop, (preferable specializing in Audi's) should save you from spending thousands of $'s if/once it becomes your car, your problem. Take your time, research as much as possible & enjoy the "Hunt" for the right car. Good luck & keep us posted.

[MidnightNarwhal]

All used cars, CPO or not, carry the risk of being problematic. You should always have a PPI done by a disinterested 3rd party (as well as YOU paying for it, don't let the dealer pay for it). CPO just gives you a warranty as well as a modest look over. There could very well be underlying body damage, mechanical damage, or prior neglect with CPO cars.

To answer you question, a non CPO car from Audi is like buying it from any other dealer.

Absolutely get a PPI. Just because it is an Audi dealership & the car is from the same brand means little. I'm not sure what Certified Plus is (Perhaps it is the same thing as Certified Pre-Owned in the States) but I assume it means the same as CPO, which removes most of the concerns regarding potential warranty issues. As close to full proofing a car from catastrophic failures & massive repair bills coming your way, IMHO. IIRC, stateside, an Audi "Qualifies" for CPO status provided it is still w/in the original Factory Warranty, remains in stock configuration (hasn't been modified), no accidents & has less than 50,000 miles. After that it is a matter of paying to get the car certified, which again state side is ~ $2000.00. Mileage, service history & overall condition usually tell the "story" of the car & how it was cared or not cared for. A PPI for a few hundred $'s from a trusted local Indy shop, (preferable specializing in Audi's) should save you from spending thousands of $'s if/once it becomes your car, your problem. Take your time, research as much as possible & enjoy the "Hunt" for the right car. Good luck & keep us posted.

Ok thanks for the replies.

A generic PPI would cost a few hundred but should I check for more? Like compression and headgasket tests to? That would add up to.

[ICU2]

You certainly could, it all boils down to how much U want 2 spend "to be sure." Nothing is a guarantee from problems, Y do U think there R lemon laws for new cars? A trusted Indy shop, & a thorough vehicle & service HX R also VERY helpful in spotting potential problems before they become your problems.
Does the vehicle have a "Car Fax" or similar available for review? Was it bought & traded @ the dealership U saw/viewed it @? What year S5 R U looking @? V8 vs V6 w/SC make a difference in what to "look" for as far as potential known problems. Mileage & options? 1st Audi? Is there a trusted Indy shop in your greater Ottawa area? Do you have a relationship w/them? Just some thoughts.

[MidnightNarwhal]

You certainly could, it all boils down to how much U want 2 spend "to be sure." Nothing is a guarantee from problems, Y do U think there R lemon laws for new cars? A trusted Indy shop, & a thorough vehicle & service HX R also VERY helpful in spotting potential problems before they become your problems.
Does the vehicle have a "Car Fax" or similar available for review? Was it bought & traded @ the dealership U saw/viewed it @? What year S5 R U looking @? V8 vs V6 w/SC make a difference in what to "look" for as far as potential known problems. Mileage & options? 1st Audi? Is there a trusted Indy shop in your greater Ottawa area? Do you have a relationship w/them? Just some thoughts.

Yeah I understand the point, to be like sure nothing is wrong.

I do plan to do a Carproof on any car if I'm looking at purchasing it for sure, it's only about 50$. It's like Car Fax. I'm looking at the V6T ones, 2013 to 2016 (I believe). Test drove one today that was way out of my budget but just to give me the feel and I really really like it. First Audi yes. There are 2 indy shops I know and trust near me but I'm looking all across Ontario and Quebec for a car that will fit my budget and what I'm looking for in them, sports dif and black optics pack so that's why it can be a bit of a headache to try and visit the car that might be ~ 5 hours away and at the same time trying to find a indy shop in that area and making an appointment you know.

[ICU2]

Yeah I understand the point, to be like sure nothing is wrong.

I do plan to do a Carproof on any car if I'm looking at purchasing it for sure, it's only about 50$. It's like Car Fax. I'm looking at the V6T ones, 2013 to 2016 (I believe). Test drove one today that was way out of my budget but just to give me the feel and I really really like it. First Audi yes. There are 2 indy shops I know and trust near me but I'm looking all across Ontario and Quebec for a car that will fit my budget and what I'm looking for in them, sports dif and black optics pack so that's why it can be a bit of a headache to try and visit the car that might be ~ 5 hours away and at the same time trying to find a indy shop in that area and making an appointment you know.

Is CPO out of the question d/t budget? A lot of the concerns ~ getting stuck w/a clunker dissipate significantly w/ a CPO. My last 4 have been CPO's & I've traveled well over 4 hrs from my home to buy each one, w/a trade. I assume CPO works the same in Canada as it does in the States but IDK for sure. If your concern is not getting burned & your budget can handle it, I'd go CPO for sure. With that said, there have been a few (2-3 IIRC) AZ members that have had issues w/ CPO cars but the were all resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, so inconvenient TBS, but w/o a warranty on a $50,000.00 + car is something I wouldn't be comfortable w/. I'd say look stateside but don't know what the difference in $ & the potential hassel of importing is/would be.
Did you ask if the one you've already looked @ could be "Certified" by the selling Audi dealer? Did it have the equipment U were looking for? If U find one in a similar condition to my description (regarding eligible to be certified), most dealers will take a look @ the car & tell U if they think they can certify it & what they charge for that certification. Food for thought.

[JoshDub]

You don't usually need to go as far as a compression or leak down test. They don't often go bad on younger cars with lower miles.

Just used a shop that is familiar with the make to do a regular PPI. Should cost around $200.

[MidnightNarwhal]

Is CPO out of the question d/t budget? A lot of the concerns ~ getting stuck w/a clunker dissipate significantly w/ a CPO. My last 4 have been CPO's & I've traveled well over 4 hrs from my home to buy each one, w/a trade. I assume CPO works the same in Canada as it does in the States but IDK for sure. If your concern is not getting burned & your budget can handle it, I'd go CPO for sure. With that said, there have been a few (2-3 IIRC) AZ members that have had issues w/ CPO cars but the were all resolved to the satisfaction of the owner, so inconvenient TBS, but w/o a warranty on a $50,000.00 + car is something I wouldn't be comfortable w/. I'd say look stateside but don't know what the difference in $ & the potential hassel of importing is/would be.
Did you ask if the one you've already looked @ could be "Certified" by the selling Audi dealer? Did it have the equipment U were looking for? If U find one in a similar condition to my description (regarding eligible to be certified), most dealers will take a look @ the car & tell U if they think they can certify it & what they charge for that certification. Food for thought.

Just to clear things up, "Audi Certified Plus" is this. I think it is the same as CPO in the states.

There is maybe 1 or 2 certified within budget I can find so I may just focus on them and future CPOs if I need to buy away from town and that could cover for not finding a PPI spot. Like I'm sure if they're willing to sell a car with CPO and warranty there shouldn't be any major issues on the car.

Yeah importing cars is a huge hassle I don't think it's a good idea. In Canada not so great haha.

I didn't know they can certify, I suppose I can discuss this with future car I find. Maybe the dealers forgot to mention it, for example the car I visited today on the Audi Pre owned search it doesn't mention it was a certified one but it was.

[MidnightNarwhal]

You don't usually need to go as far as a compression or leak down test. They don't often go bad on younger cars with lower miles.

Just used a shop that is familiar with the make to do a regular PPI. Should cost around $200.

Right.

At what milleage would you recommend?

I was considering some that had 130 000km (80k miles) they had a good price due to millea

[ICU2]

Just to clear things up, "Audi Certified Plus" is this. I think it is the same as CPO in the states.

There is maybe 1 or 2 certified within budget I can find so I may just focus on them and future CPOs if I need to buy away from town and that could cover for not finding a PPI spot. Like I'm sure if they're willing to sell a car with CPO and warranty there shouldn't be any major issues on the car.

I didn't know they can certify, I suppose I can discuss this with future car I find. Maybe the dealers forgot to mention it, for example the car I visited today on the Audi Pre owned search it doesn't mention it was a certified one but it was.

Yeah, your version of a CP = to our CPO. Again, not certain ~ getting a car certified in Canada, but if it can be done in the states, I suspect the same can be done in Canada, provided the car meets the criteria & the certification inspection is done/paid for. Never hurts to ask, the worst they can say is "no". However, stateside, once the CPO inspection is done, the cost of the inspection stays w/the car & is reflected in the price.

[JoshDub]

Right.

At what milleage would you recommend?

I was considering some that had 130 000km (80k miles) they had a good price due to millea

I probably wouldn't bother until it was well into 100k miles, and even then, the 3.0t isn't known for suffering from compression loss.

[MidnightNarwhal]

I probably wouldn't bother until it was well into 100k miles, and even then, the 3.0t isn't known for suffering from compression loss.

Ok sounds good.

I'm hearing good stuff about the V6T engine in there, that's good!

[MidnightNarwhal]

Yeah, your version of a CP = to our CPO. Again, not certain ~ getting a car certified in Canada, but if it can be done in the states, I suspect the same can be done in Canada, provided the car meets the criteria & the certification inspection is done/paid for. Never hurts to ask, the worst they can say is "no". However, stateside, once the CPO inspection is done, the cost of the inspection stays w/the car & is reflected in the price.

Alright well thanks for the info.

I'll keep looking, I was only buying probably end of winter but I suppose I won't rule out non Audi listings and get them PPI if they have good deals.

[ICU2]

Good luck & don't B shy ~ asking ?'s on the forum. TONS of knowledgeable individuals over a wide spectrum of Audi's. Remember, it only happened if there R pictures to back it up. Keep us posted & happy hunting!!

[MidnightNarwhal]

Good luck & don't B shy ~ asking ?'s on the forum. TONS of knowledgeable individuals over a wide spectrum of Audi's. Remember, it only happened if there R pictures to back it up. Keep us posted & happy hunting!!

Haha, wil def make a post on here when I get it! Thanks again

[Fourcircle]

Interesting thread. This is probably obvious but worth mentioning... it would be prudent to negotiate the final price, including full disclosure of all closing fees (dealer doc fees, taxes, etc) before investing in the PPI. Then if the PPI reveals anything that needs to be resolved and it doesn't scare you away, you can take that report back to the dealer and demand it be resolved or price reduced before you take delivery. It is much better to have the dealer complete the repair fully on their dime vs them reducing the price and you doing it on your dime, because if the repair turns out to be more involved or expensive than expected, it's better that is on the dealer than you. Don't accept a 'due note' on the repairs or parts to be done after delivery. Make sure all is 100% before closing the deal.


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[bknewtype]

iv bought 2 CPO and 1 non CPO audis from the audi dealership and never had a single issue. I wouldn't worry if its CPO as whatever "mechanical" problem you have, should be covered under the CPO warranty anyway. would just be an inconvenience at most if anything for you needing to bring it in, but they will always provide a loaner if requested. but yes, getting a PPI would be beneficial to you for sure if you can swing it.

cosmetics is another story though. on my CPO a5, they never disclosed that there was accident, which I had to find out on my own through my friends being able to see the fixed damages that I wasn't able to. of course the dealer couldn't do anything about it. or wouldn't rather.

[MidnightNarwhal]

Interesting thread. This is probably obvious but worth mentioning... it would be prudent to negotiate the final price, including full disclosure of all closing fees (dealer doc fees, taxes, etc) before investing in the PPI. Then if the PPI reveals anything that needs to be resolved and it doesn't scare you away, you can take that report back to the dealer and demand it be resolved or price reduced before you take delivery. It is much better to have the dealer complete the repair fully on their dime vs them reducing the price and you doing it on your dime, because if the repair turns out to be more involved or expensive than expected, it's better that is on the dealer than you. Don't accept a 'due note' on the repairs or parts to be done after delivery. Make sure all is 100% before closing the deal.


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Oh yeah uh, ask them to fix it before sale? I'll keep that in mind.

iv bought 2 CPO and 1 non CPO audis from the audi dealership and never had a single issue. I wouldn't worry if its CPO as whatever "mechanical" problem you have, should be covered under the CPO warranty anyway. would just be an inconvenience at most if anything for you needing to bring it in, but they will always provide a loaner if requested. but yes, getting a PPI would be beneficial to you for sure if you can swing it.

cosmetics is another story though. on my CPO a5, they never disclosed that there was accident, which I had to find out on my own through my friends being able to see the fixed damages that I wasn't able to. of course the dealer couldn't do anything about it. or wouldn't rather.

Right if it's CPO nothing much to worry you bring it in under warranty, although I wanted to tune the car and I have been told it will void warranty I will only play with an intake and maybe exhaust, they said it wouldn't void.

[bknewtype]

Oh yeah uh, ask them to fix it before sale? I'll keep that in mind.





Right if it's CPO nothing much to worry you bring it in under warranty, although I wanted to tune the car and I have been told it will void warranty I will only play with an intake and maybe exhaust, they said it wouldn't void.

modding will always have risk of voiding warranty. but correct, I would be careful if you are under CPO warranty. intake and exhaust shouldn't cause any issues so you should be safe

[snocat17]

I bought a used 2016 with 26K miles from a Jag dealer in Florida in May. It was still under original warranty. I paid about $300 to have it inspected "like they would to certify it" at the nearest Audi dealer, not affiliated with the Jag dealer. The Audi dealer couldn't make it a "certified" pre-owned, so the warranty wouldn't be extended. However, they could tell me if it would pass or not and give me the full detailed report. They were actually very thorough, it was well worth the money.

After I bought it for less than asking price, I asked two different Audi dealers near me about getting it Certified Pre-Owned. They said they will not do it unless they sell it. They could do the inspection again, but it is essentially the same inspection they do at normal service intervals (35K, 45K, and 55K miles). They could also sell me an extended warranty, which started around $4000.

It sounds like paying $X,XXX to certify a used car is a dealer's choice, not standard across Audi dealers.

Find the one you want, pay about $300 to have it inspected by a 3rd party, and then get it when it passes.

[MidnightNarwhal]

I bought a used 2016 with 26K miles from a Jag dealer in Florida in May. It was still under original warranty. I paid about $300 to have it inspected "like they would to certify it" at the nearest Audi dealer, not affiliated with the Jag dealer. The Audi dealer couldn't make it a "certified" pre-owned, so the warranty wouldn't be extended. However, they could tell me if it would pass or not and give me the full detailed report. They were actually very thorough, it was well worth the money.

After I bought it for less than asking price, I asked two different Audi dealers near me about getting it Certified Pre-Owned. They said they will not do it unless they sell it. They could do the inspection again, but it is essentially the same inspection they do at normal service intervals (35K, 45K, and 55K miles). They could also sell me an extended warranty, which started around $4000.

It sounds like paying $X,XXX to certify a used car is a dealer's choice, not standard across Audi dealers.

Find the one you want, pay about $300 to have it inspected by a 3rd party, and then get it when it passes.

Right. If audi has a good dealer PPI and it's open to anyone at a cost, it's all I really am worried about when buying from a non Audi dealer.

[Redd]

"risk of voiding warranty."
Vendors of all kinds, especially car dealers (who want to force all "work" to be done by their own shop at their own rates) often fearmonger about that.

But in the US, the federal courts have been slapping them down since the 60's for that. There are many little known US laws (like the Magnusson-Moss Act) that cover warranty terms and performance, and the dealers all really know about them, even if they pretend they don't exist.

In the US, your car dealer cannot deny a warranty claim because of outside "modifications" until and unless they can specifically prove that the modifications actually caused the damage. It isn't enough, for example, to say "this aftermarket exhaust might have caused the engine to overheat". They have to actually have facts that back up the cause, or else they have to honor the warranty, until and unless there is specific proof that the modifications caused a problem. For instance, aftermarket remote starters and security systems could easily damage the electronics in any car, given the typical botched state of alarm shops. But again--they can't just say "Someone else touched the car, so your warranty is void."

If a dealer pretends otherwise, his attorney will be apologizing before the smalls claims court gets a chance to slap him.

In other countries, your mileage may vary. In the US? The law only protects you if you *know* about it. Federal consumer protection and warranty laws aren't thrilling reading, but they can save you big dollars. And they're often written pretty clearly.

[RockJGC]

....CPO just gives you a warranty as well as a modest look over. There could very well be underlying body damage, mechanical damage, or prior neglect with CPO cars.

Not really. I use to work as a dealership tech and performed lots of CPO inspections/evaluations. There are strict guidelines that we had to follow in order to certify a car for CPO status. Even things like minor cosmetic damage (dings, paint chips, for example) have limitations for CPO eligibility. Hell, even the tires must all match and have a minimum of 5/32" tread remaining. CPO inspections are very comprehensive. The whole idea is that a CPO car should be the cream of the crop of used cars. That doesn't mean you can't get a lemon of course....but the car should certainly meet or exceed all the CPO guidelines.

[Redd]

The manufacturer may give the dealer a list of 100 items to "certify" before a car qualifies for CPO sales. That's all well and good, but it might take an hour in a lift with an A-line mechanic to do that, and that's another $100 out of the dealer's profits. So...what do many dealers do? They cheat.

Once upon a time I worked at a GM dealership. There was a checklist, just like the one that Audi provides (and in theory the dealer literally signs off on it, checks off each item, and gives it to the purchaser), which listed everything that was to be inspected and confirmed by the dealership on delivery. One of those was simple tire pressure.

Fifteen pounds here, twentyfive there....Ah, yeah, somehow that got checked off without any problem?

With my Audi, the checklist was unchecked. The day after I got it, it rained. The rain didn't bead up and "polish" wasn't checked off. Back we went, with MY can of polish, and the difference was night and day.

Cheap Audi OEM polish? Or skipping that expensive certification?

Some dealers have always known that if you show the customer some respect, there's a potential for 40+ more years of repeat business and referrals. Others prefer to simply churn the crowd, because there are so many rubes out there. Like any other business.

[RockJGC]

The manufacturer may give the dealer a list of 100 items to "certify" before a car qualifies for CPO sales. That's all well and good, but it might take an hour in a lift with an A-line mechanic to do that, and that's another $100 out of the dealer's profits. So...what do many dealers do? They cheat.

Once upon a time I worked at a GM dealership. There was a checklist, just like the one that Audi provides (and in theory the dealer literally signs off on it, checks off each item, and gives it to the purchaser), which listed everything that was to be inspected and confirmed by the dealership on delivery. One of those was simple tire pressure.

Fifteen pounds here, twentyfive there....Ah, yeah, somehow that got checked off without any problem?

With my Audi, the checklist was unchecked. The day after I got it, it rained. The rain didn't bead up and "polish" wasn't checked off. Back we went, with MY can of polish, and the difference was night and day.

Cheap Audi OEM polish? Or skipping that expensive certification?

Some dealers have always known that if you show the customer some respect, there's a potential for 40+ more years of repeat business and referrals. Others prefer to simply churn the crowd, because there are so many rubes out there. Like any other business.

You seem to be confusing a PDI (pre-delivery inspection) checklist with a CPO checklist. Tire pressure has never been included on any CPO checklist that I've seen, but it sure is included on PDI checklists. A CPO checklist is internal to the dealership and shouldn't be given to the customer, but the PDI checklist is often given to the customer at the time of sale. And FWIW, CPO inspections are normally completed by C-level technicians. A-techs are usually far too busy actually repairing vehicles. Dealerships typically don't cheat on CPO checklists because they could lose their ability to sell CPO cars with the manufacturer.

BTW, a PDI is intended to ensure that a new car is delivered perfectly ready to go for the customer. Tire pressure adjusted (which is something that is very often ignored whether or not it's checked off), body plugs installed, side mirrors installed (often for imported cars), protective covers for brake rotors removed, plate mount brackets installed, suspension blocks removed, etc...

A CPO inspection is intended to determine if a car meets the manufacturers guidelines for a used car that's in very good condition, mechanically, cosmetically and functionally.

[ICU2]

"risk of voiding warranty."
Vendors of all kinds, especially car dealers (who want to force all "work" to be done by their own shop at their own rates) often fearmonger about that.

But in the US, the federal courts have been slapping them down since the 60's for that. There are many little known US laws (like the Magnusson-Moss Act) that cover warranty terms and performance, and the dealers all really know about them, even if they pretend they don't exist.

In the US, your car dealer cannot deny a warranty claim because of outside "modifications" until and unless they can specifically prove that the modifications actually caused the damage. It isn't enough, for example, to say "this aftermarket exhaust might have caused the engine to overheat". They have to actually have facts that back up the cause, or else they have to honor the warranty, until and unless there is specific proof that the modifications caused a problem. For instance, aftermarket remote starters and security systems could easily damage the electronics in any car, given the typical botched state of alarm shops. But again--they can't just say "Someone else touched the car, so your warranty is void."

If a dealer pretends otherwise, his attorney will be apologizing before the smalls claims court gets a chance to slap him.

In other countries, your mileage may vary. In the US? The law only protects you if you *know* about it. Federal consumer protection and warranty laws aren't thrilling reading, but they can save you big dollars. And they're often written pretty clearly.

1st) I am NOT an attorney, 2nd) Please correctly cite the "Case Law" (Stark v. Maserati N. Am., Inc., 2010 WL 4916981 (E.D.N.Y. Oct. 13, 2010); DiCintio v. DaimlerChrysler Corp., 768 N.E.2d 1121 (N.Y. 2002).) which reflects your assertion, I'd be very interested to read this/these cases, & it would be invaluable information for AZ members, 3rd) "Financial Limits" for small claim courts vary widely amongst the 50 states (AZ is $3500.00, FL $5000.00, DE $10,000.00, RI $2500.00 etc.. check NOLO for a list of all states & their limits). Not trying to be adversarial in any way but aside from the afore mentioned issues, very few would have the procedural/legal "know how" to prevent themselves from loosing their case. Additionally, unless they have deep pockets & or the correct council to combat the DEEPER pockets of a multi-billion dollar corporation like VAG & its subsidiaries, this will not end well for the plaintiff. He/She looses the case, is stuck w/ the repair bill (depending on what "broke" it could be well in excess of the limits of small claims court, rental car, time of from work etc...) & likely has ruined the relationship w/the local Audi dealer as well.
My overall point is I've heard/read/seen this type of response dozens of times over the years (~ the Magnusson-Moss Act) but never a successful challenge by an individual regarding an engine/transmission tune. I have also "heard" ~ others having successful challenges regarding things like exhausts/intakes, but again never any proof. Do you have personal experience w/these type(s) of matters? If so, please share, always looking to learn.

[Redd]

Rock-
No confusion here. "You seem to be confusing a PDI (pre-delivery inspection) checklist with a CPO checklist. "
In the words of Chairman Mao, "Black cat, white cat, ALL SAME, CATCH MICE." It doesn't matter what kind of checklists they are, they are checklists, and the dealer is being paid to follow them and perform the checks. The factory usually does not (or at least, did not) pay full retail rate for the mechanics time doing this, which is why the mechanics and dealers alike did not like to do "factory work" or all kinds. (I believe there have been some lawsuits and agreements that have modified this problem.)

ICU-
No, I don't cite case law even if I know it. Your mileage will vary depending on the state you are in. In NYC it will cost you about $25 to go to small claims court, in Miami I think that's $300. In all venues, if a corporation is sued in small claims court, they must bring legal counsel, so they are paying perhaps $125/hour plus prep time and waiting time so there's a bit of leverage to just settle the matter out of court. And yes, someone who doesn't know the laws can screw themselves in any court. I've been to a semi-rural county traffic court where four people were told to pay up for improper registrations. My friend was #5, he showed the court the proper certified page in the state traffic laws, and his case was dismissed. What about the other four people who had been improperly cited, didn't show certified pages, and were just outside paying the clerk? Yeah, they were screwed because they didn't know how to present their cases.
Welcome to America.
No, I didn't just read this on the internet, I do know the people (attorneys, car dealers, and a few other dubious professions) who have been there and seen and made the system work. Or, sometimes fail.
"Tuning" presents a complex issue that goes beyond warranty law, as the Digital Millenium Copyright Act and other really questionable legislation is still being argued in the courts, and is directly targeted to modifying "computer code". When you "tune" an engine, any gearhead can tell you that means changing the timing and dwell, spark plugs and wires. Not messing around with computer crap. Tuners? Aw, buy a vowel, as the nice lady says. Tuners today aren't tuning anything, they're PROGRAMMING. And most of them have absolutely no idea of what the real changes are, and what the ramifications of those may be. Like, Dieselgate.

[RockJGC]

Rock-
No confusion here. "You seem to be confusing a PDI (pre-delivery inspection) checklist with a CPO checklist. "
In the words of Chairman Mao, "Black cat, white cat, ALL SAME, CATCH MICE." It doesn't matter what kind of checklists they are, they are checklists, and the dealer is being paid to follow them and perform the checks. The factory usually does not (or at least, did not) pay full retail rate for the mechanics time doing this, which is why the mechanics and dealers alike did not like to do "factory work" or all kinds. (I believe there have been some lawsuits and agreements that have modified this problem.)

.

If you can't understand the difference between a PDI and CPO, there's really no point in continuing this discussion. Like I said, they are two completely different things with different purposes. As for mechanic's time & pay, you are 100% incorrect. I worked as a mechanic and like all of us working at dealerships, we are paid flat rate and a CPO inspection has a flat rate time assigned to it. How many CPO inspections or PDIs have you done? I've done plenty and I can tell you that there's no need to rush through them because I'm getting paid and the dealership absorbs the cost via a sales budget. After all, it's sales that makes more money when a car is CPO certified. In fact, there are lots of cars that don't quite meet CPO guidelines, but the dealership then spends money to get them up to par, just so they can sell them as CPO for more profit.

[ICU2]

Rock
ICU-
No, I don't cite case law even if I know it. Your mileage will vary depending on the state you are in. In NYC it will cost you about $25 to go to small claims court, in Miami I think that's $300. In all venues, if a corporation is sued in small claims court, they must bring legal counsel, so they are paying perhaps $125/hour plus prep time and waiting time so there's a bit of leverage to just settle the matter out of court. And yes, someone who doesn't know the laws can screw themselves in any court. I've been to a semi-rural county traffic court where four people were told to pay up for improper registrations. My friend was #5, he showed the court the proper certified page in the state traffic laws, and his case was dismissed. What about the other four people who had been improperly cited, didn't show certified pages, and were just outside paying the clerk? Yeah, they were screwed because they didn't know how to present their cases.
Welcome to America.
No, I didn't just read this on the internet, I do know the people (attorneys, car dealers, and a few other dubious professions) who have been there and seen and made the system work. Or, sometimes fail.
"Tuning" presents a complex issue that goes beyond warranty law, as the Digital Millenium Copyright Act and other really questionable legislation is still being argued in the courts, and is directly targeted to modifying "computer code". When you "tune" an engine, any gearhead can tell you that means changing the timing and dwell, spark plugs and wires. Not messing around with computer crap. Tuners? Aw, buy a vowel, as the nice lady says. Tuners today aren't tuning anything, they're PROGRAMMING. And most of them have absolutely no idea of what the real changes are, and what the ramifications of those may be. Like, Dieselgate.

I was hoping I had come across someone who could provide “proof” regarding the claims, but alas that appears not to be the case, more hearsay. Not asking for legal advice or interpretation, don’t understand “if” you knew of case law, Y not cite it? “Don’t be scared homie.” W/o case law to substantiate, it is difficult to replicate those alleged efforts by “friends/associates/attorneys.”
What I did find interesting was the reference to the DMCA, last I read, was a decision in Oct of 2015 denying OEM exclusivity over the vehicle software w/a “review” Q 3 years by the Librarian of Congress & the Copyright Office. Has there been an update from the 2015 ruling? Another OEM challenge? I agree that not every “tuner” knows what they R doing when they initiate changes to the software modifying engine/transmission, timing, shift points, boost pressure, etc... parameters, but saying most, paints w/a very broad brush. I would imagine the more reputable, well known companies that offer tuning would strenuously object to your assertion/classification.

[Redd]

Anything that involves "computers" opens the door to DMCA and other issues that are outside the scope, or possibly supercede, conventional "mechanical" warranty laws. Any case law that is cited, binds only on the (inferior) courts in the same federal court district, until it goes upstairs for appeal. So, citations? Without the particulars of a case to research against them? Or a specific district?

In the more rational states, it will cost you $25 to file the case, and that's less than the value of the hours it would take to look for precedents. Even IF the dealer is willing to spend the bucks to get a lawyer who is astute enough to do that same research and hand it over to you.

The courts also generally favor the consumer over the dealer, even unreasonably so. As was a case (60's) involving some folks I knew. Their customer got a red OIL (stop engine) light on the parkway, and figured what the heck, it was only another twenty minutes to the dealership. Slagged down his new car engine on the way. Court said: That's under warranty, replace the man's engine. Dealer said WTF?! Judge said hey, twenty minutes isn't unreasonable, you should have made it clear that STOP ENGINE means NOW. (Apparently the oil pan drain plug had come loose.)

And given the way that many big businesses, especially car dealerships, skin the rubes? The courts aren't always wrong to haul them over the coals.

You want hard details? Start at a local law library, they'll usually let anyone in.

[ICU2]

I have neither the time nor was it my intention to get into a back & forth w/U, I mistakenly thought a fellow Audi enthusiast might have specific knowledge which could be beneficial to the AZ community @ large, my error.