B5 01X and 02X Conversion Thread

[Dirtyb5]

I should probably add to this. I have my 02x bolted up to an ays v8 from a d2 s8. I have approx 3000 miles on this setup so far without issue 👍

[Dirtyb5]

To add to this... I just finished a 50 mile round trip with functioning cruise control and speedometer, for free.
(I'm going to snap some photos, but I wanted to post while it was fresh in my mind)

Pin 33 (empty) on the ABS connector, to Pin 10 (brown/red) in the black plug in the ecu plenum box area. My vss code is gone, my speedometer works, my cruise control works.
I'm v8 swapped with the 02x, running a custom euro manual s6 bin, so I didnt run into any issues with cruise control etc in 6th gear. My car is a 2004 Audi A6 Avant with motronic 7.1.1, so the plug may be different in a 7.1 car.

[A1 A2 German]

SKIP TO POST #94, WAS A ~ BAD ABS SENSOR

Post was in regards to the Dakota speed conversion box not working, content erased.

[walky_talky20]

I don't think Audi ABS is significantly different than other manufacturers. I would put a scope on the ABS signal your are tapping and see exactly what you have there. Compare to input specs of Dakota.

[A1 A2 German]

Go to post #94

[Gearbox]

The raw speed signal from the ABS sensor is a AC. I worked with large truck ABS (Which still use the Bosch style sensor from the 80's). Those can generate over 20V AC at times. The ABS ECU's would cap off the voltage at anything over 5V. It also needed a minimum of 200mV to read a signal. The large diameter tires required tone rings with 100 teeth (typically). 40 MPH worked out to ~850 teeth/sec (850 Hz). The trailer ABS was using the same setup at the wheel ends. The saturation point for the ECU was about 80mph. The ECU could not process anything beyond about 1700Hz.

The tone rings on our Audis have 45 teeth. With the standard 225/45/17 tire you get ~ 841 revs/mile. All that equates to ~37,850 teeth/mile. 60mph = ~630Hz.

[A1 A2 German]

SKIP TO POST #94

[Gearbox]

Direct voltage from the wheel speed sensor is AC. The sensor is a magnet wrapped in a coil. The tone ring interrupts the magnetic field creating an alternating current in the coils wires. If you are seeing sensor output on VAGCOM then the wheel speed sensors are sending AC voltage to the ECU.

[A1 A2 German]

.....

[MetalMan]

What happens when you set your meter to 200 VAC? I wouldn't expect to see any amps AC since there's no load, but you're also comparing against DC Volts (not amps).

[A1 A2 German]

....

[Gearbox]

What are your test leads connected to? Trace the 2 wires from the wheel speed sensor up to where they pass through the grommet in the wheel well. Pull the grommet out and you will find a 2 pin connector. Unplug that and test at that point.

First, set your meter to Ohms. The typical measured value is around 1400-1800 Ohms. If it's not within that range then then try a different sensor.

Now test for AC output. 1 rev/sec should be enough to get voltage. If that fails, check the tone ring to sensor air gap. That needs to be a close as possible (.010"). Is the sensor directly over the tone ring?

The sensor/tone ring assembly is a rudimentary AC voltage device.

abs.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeXlmdlXp2s

[b5v6]

^
Nothing on 200A, not even a flicker, however per "load" I am spinning the wheel as hard as I can...you can watch the dc zero out once stopped & rise during spinning/spin speed.

Metalman is saying you have your multi-meter set to measure amperage. Try using the VAC selection rather than AAC. I would think spinning it by hand would be enough because the abs will kick in at slow speeds but I wonder if you're able to get the wheel to spin fast enough.

Instagram: @oliepyle

[A1 A2 German]

POST #94: Dakota speed box wiring and ABS OEM source wiring so a Dakota box isn't needed (maybe) Post #94 will be updated as I go, covering tangible & electrical settings. By tapping another abs speed sensor the single strength increased ten fold VDC & for the first time reading VAC, Dakota box now reads signal and the speedo jumped around driving.


Updating

Solution #1: Dakota Speed Box
https://www.dakotadigital.com/index....rod/prd126.htm (pdf instructions on bottom on how to operate/tune)

Wiring
1)Power: ACC from x75 terminal & ground
2) Signal to dash: Run a wire from "OUT 2" on the Dakota to either 3 locations of the speedo wire being brown with red stripe.
Location #1 Tap pulling Instrument panel/ it's the right harness with the blue plug seen here: https://www.google.com/search?q=spee...d5rN65MDPqoW2M
Location #2 Tap into in at the transmission vss plug that physically plugs into the transmission
Location #3 Tap into at unibody plugs in back of ecu box
It's the same wire, just all over the place
3) Singal from ABS sensor: You run these two wires to the "Sensor Ground" & "Signal In" I can not tell you which is what as all oem abs sensor wires per pair are the same color....so you may have to flip their positions. I tapped in a rear abs sensor, as the wires are easily located under the rear seat and already located within the vehicle.

Programming tuning (working, just needs final calibration)
1) Low vs High Input: It's Low
2) P-U On vs Off: It's Off
3) Signal Output (L-L vs L-H vs H-H vs H-L): It's H-H
4) Calibration settings: It's .35

NOTE: As EVERYTHING stands, you only adjust #4 'Calibration' moving forward to fine tune if speedo is too fast or slow. With '.35' and 19"'s I'm reading ~10+ mph too fast (feels that way). A quick adjustment in the Cal menu will address that.


------------------------------------------------

Solution #2: Taping into the ABS unit looking for an OEM signal so a Dakota box isn't needed

-B6 A4's have a speed signal off pin #33 off the abs plug, and do not need a speedo box, #33 is an empty slot which you add a female terminal and wire too seen here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=abs+...j2UP1kJifHq_qM

-B5 A4's have only 21 slots, and currently unknown if the B5 ABS has a speed signal, if they do the Dakota speed box isn't needed.

Currently a B6 member maybe testing signal off his pin #33 to tell me what he sees, so I can go down my 21 pins off my abs looking for that same signal.


UPDATE: Not good so far electrical schematics do not reflect my physical connections.

A member wrote: "Any thoughts on this? I count more than 21 pins on my 2001 a4q and roomie's 2000 non-esp S4"

Your A4 is facelift has more goodies and more complex, I only have 21 pins. Another issue is my abs has been moved against the firewall and ironically makes the plug terminals impossible to access to volt meter test. If in the normal spot I could lift up the rubber boot exposing the plastic terminal board. Unfortunately this is the harness that drops below the steering rack down the rabbit hole and impossible to get to from under the dash too.

There's 11 slots in first row (closest to you), with another 10 slots in the back row. However, not every slot has a wire, so less than 21 wires, yet has 21 slots (pins).

[andyrew]

:Popcorn:

:Wave:

:)

[grifrowl]

Solution #2: Taping into the ABS unit looking for an OEM signal so a Dakota box isn't needed

-B6 A4's have a speed signal off pin #33 off the abs plug, and do not need a speedo box, #33 is an empty slot which you add a female terminal and wire too seen here:
https://www.google.com/search?q=abs+...j2UP1kJifHq_qM

-B5 A4's have only 21 slots, and currently unknown if the B5 ABS has a speed signal, if they do the Dakota speed box isn't needed.

Currently a B6 member maybe testing signal off his pin #33 to tell me what he sees, so I can go down my 21 pins off my abs looking for that same signal.


UPDATE: Not good so far electrical schematics do not reflect my physical connections.

Any thoughts on this? I count more than 21 pins on my 2001 a4q and roomie's 2000 non-esp S4

abs_pinout_b5a4.jpg

[A1 A2 German]

Updated Post #94

[grifrowl]

Any thoughts on this? I count more than 21 pins on my 2001 a4q and roomie's 2000 non-esp S4

non-esp

Can someone post a pic of the 21 pin connector? Both my 98 and 01 and 00 s4 have the same connector, pictured. My 2001 S4 with ESP has a 15 pin connector, pictured.
0SlzL0AA.jpgesp connector
I'll find a wire terminal and see what kind of signal is coming off terminal 23 or 24 on the non-esp module.

[A1 A2 German]

Updated post #94 (with plug pic)

[Gearbox]

So what is B5 speedometer solution using the factory ABS signal? Did anyone confirm anything about tapping into the factory wiring so that an aftermarket box isn’t needed on a B5?

[Blazius]

you need to do software hacks to get signal from elsewhere. VSS directly feeds the instrument in b5.

[A1 A2 German]

So what is B5 speedometer solution using the factory ABS signal? Did anyone confirm anything about tapping into the factory wiring so that an aftermarket box isn’t needed on a B5?

The irony is I can't do or try it as my connector is pushed up against the firewall. The connector plug is two pieces, a rubber outter boot and inner white connector, the white connector must be plugged in simply pull up the rubber boot back and use a volt meter while driving to find out which one is producing a signal. Anyone can do this as their abs is in the stock location, I can't access my plug like you can as did an abs location change and plug is in a bad spot.

[Gearbox]

I disassembled a side cover from a Tiptronic to inspect the speed sensor construction. The ring that triggers the sensor has 8 magnets. Additional research shows that the sensor is a reed switch construction. Essentially the Audi design produces 8 pulses/rev. This confirms that the ABS signal with 45 pulses/rev is far too much for the speedometer input.
E415276E-5117-45D1-8BE5-61F3A519F412.jpg

[A1 A2 German]

^

Sweet...someone mentioned that the ABS signal reads x4 times the actual speed, I believe that's ALL 4 speed sensors combined together, which may account for 45 pulse/rev.

Yet what we found is others tapped into the x4 abs signal to their dash. Maybe, just maybe, the tach recognizes ~extra voltage or ohms or current, and knocks it down 1/4.

As of this week after ~6 months of trouble shooting the standalone to even start the car it's figured out, as of yesterday I've swapped to a Dakota GPS unit, less wiring, no programming needed, all automatic, no tapping into the cars abs sensors, and is alot more stable. The Dakota SGE-5 original unit was jumpy & sporadic, the speedo is now stable & solid (the needle itself).

Wow what a better driving experience....gears so long and get to pull before needing to shift so quick (and I'm not even tuned or boosting, yet). 1st & 2nd I keep bogging the engine because I'm now shifting too early, accustom to standard 1.8t gearing. Car isn't reg or tagged so can't log any real miles, need to track down or find someone to do all the deletes on a stock ecu...swap back over to narrowband and get through emissions so I can start playing with her.

[Gearbox]

The tone ring on the outer CV joint has 45 windows. I don’t know where you got the idea that all the wheel signals get summed up. Guessing?

The signal used is the A/C frequency. Not voltage or resistance.

[Mattr567]

Thought I'd drop this here, as I came across it while reading about Martin Harp's journey putting a 2.7T and 6spd in a D3. This seems to be an off-the-shelf solution for the missing VSS signal, originally developed for putting 0A3s in C5s but it also works for 01X/02X into a B5. No need for any GPS solutions or taking things apart hunting for a signal. A buy it and be done product, it seems.

https://jhmotorsports.com/jhm-b5-c5-...sion-swap.html

[Blazius]

Thought I'd drop this here, as I came across it while reading about Martin Harp's journey putting a 2.7T and 6spd in a D3. This seems to be an off-the-shelf solution for the missing VSS signal, originally developed for putting 0A3s in C5s but it also works for 01X/02X into a B5. No need for any GPS solutions or taking things apart hunting for a signal. A buy it and be done product, it seems.

https://jhmotorsports.com/jhm-b5-c5-...sion-swap.html

This can all be done in software on stock ecu no need for hardware mods. One codeword switch so that signal comes from ABS not VSS.

[A1 A2 German]

^
Not guessing at x4 the speed, another member registered x4 the speed (all summed up) off the abs module.

Thanks for the Matt. Tit or tat, it's a tough call as the Dakota unit at times can be found for half the price of the JH unit. And really don't have to track down or tear apart the speedo cluster wire as the needed wire is clearly visible from inside the engine bay oem transmission electrical plug. Which you can trace back into the ecu box and tap there, or follow back into the cab under the dash and tap, or still easy...pull out the cluster and see the very same colored wire and tap it there (it's all the same). The GPS Dakota is super easy, 12v and one single wire to the brown with red stripe wire but cool they make that, just spendy at $300.

I also opted away from abs readings and abs input units and I'll you why...wheel spin. The JH unit does look like it has an abs female plug (using an abs sensor as a signal). That means if you launch, wot, haul balls you'll get wheel spin and see ~140mph....while doing 20. Because it's reading wheel spin, not acutely mph.

[Blazius]

Its the same thing though, in OEM setup too with wheelspin the speedo wont show real speed ofcourse because axle is still spinning freely. If you wanna drop 300 on gps module(that costs around 20$ to manufacture but lets not get into that :)) to get a speedo working then I cant stop you but there ya go.

Also that is not exactly how it works. When you tell the ecu software to send the speed variable from ABS to the instrument its not sending actual pulses, it sends a variable through k line / CAN, the instrument has an eeprom that interprets this value properly and tells the servo motor how much to move the needle. ofcourse this applies to DBW. Dont know if its possible with DBC ecus , they should all be thrown away and upgraded to dbw anyway if building something like transmission swap etc.

[A1 A2 German]

^

It's not the same thing and my post has to do with the conversion modules, not the abs, one wheel can spin when the others do not, so if you have a single or dual wheel spin you'll receive a false speed single if tabbing a single abs corner for input.

[Krazyjay55]

I've been following this thread for a while and finally did my 01x swap. The only thing I'm having issues with is the transmission mount. I saw in a earlier post about someone making a mount. Does anyone know if he ever made them to sell? TIA

[A1 A2 German]

You'll have to reach out to V70R to sell if they'll fab one.

It'll let you use the low single rear B7 oem trans puck mount and also act as a unibody brace. However you could mount your loose side B5 trans mounts to your car, and modify/cut/weld those to attempt to connect to the oem B7 side trans bungs that are on both sides of the housing. So your B7 trans would mount like a B5 trans. Or, get one of these:

https://jhmotorsports.com/jhm-drive-...and-c5-a6.html

Then see what you can do about mounting/drilling/or modifying the center bar to accept the B7 oem trans puck to be bolted (secured) to it.

[Krazyjay55]

I appreciate the info and the help. I made some side mounts, but the issue im having is the drivetrain moving just enough in 1st or reverse from a stop that the whole car shacks. Only happens when going from a dead stop but once the clutch is fully released the vibration isn't there.

[Krazyjay55]

I've finally got my swap done. After some research and asking questions I found out the the EEPROM in the cluster could be changed to run off the ABS just like newer vehicles. After changing the EEPROM the gauge works as it should and is spot on with GPS speed.

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[Creechy]

Can We have more information on how to get the cluster working from ABS signal.

[Krazyjay55]

I had to have someone program it for me because I dont have the program or the knowledge with EEPROM.
I was told that in box 65x the value will be 80 or 82. Mine needed to be change to 81 for it to work. I'm running a B5.5 passat 20220103_062350.jpg

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[Blazius]

Can We have more information on how to get the cluster working from ABS signal.

I had to have someone program it for me because I dont have the program or the knowledge with EEPROM.
I was told that in box 65x the value will be 80 or 82. Mine needed to be change to 81 for it to work. I'm running a B5.5 passat 20220103_062350.jpg

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That is correct. Forces speed read from CAN however your ecu tune need adjusting too or the ECU wont see vehicle speed and you prolly will get DTC too. CWGGVFZG needs changing.

[Krazyjay55]

A1 A2 German what axles did you use with your swap? I have a set that came from a b7 a4 01x fwd but its almost like the right hand axle is short. They are on the correct sides but I'm now at a lose.

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[A1 A2 German]

I'm using A4 B7 axles 01X axles, do note they can ~telescope to some extent (shorten & lengthen) buy pulling on them.

All note: You can not use pre-face lift uprights with B7 axles, I've used A4 B5 facelifts & S4 B5 aluminum uprights, both work perfect.

[Krazyjay55]

The issue im having is that the right axle is slide out to the max when the car is on the ground. That joint starts to slip

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