2.0T FSI Rattling Noise - Bad Lifter?

[isaacallen73]

My 2006 Audi A4 2.0T with 139k miles started making a new noise yesterday. Sounds like a faint tick or knock, almost like detonation or a lifter tick. Seems to happen when the engine is fully warmed up right when I start to get on boost in 3rd or 4th gear, going up a hill around 2500 rpm. Goes away above 3000 rpm. Its a very subtle noise from the right-ish side of the engine bay (can only be heard with radio off and windows down). And before anyone asks for a sound clip, it's too subtle for a microphone to pick it up, haha.
I tried testing the basic things, but haven't had any luck.

Ive tested the oil pressure before and it was a bit on the low side and its done some funky things towards the end of my oil change intervals. Since it was about time for an oil change anyway, I went ahead and did one with Mobil 1 0W-40. Didn't help.

Went ahead and pulled the spark plugs to check for detonation or anything unusual. They all looked fine. Cylinder 2 was slightly crustier than the rest, but not enough for any concern. So, seems like no detonation. Its also worth noting I always run 93.

I understand some of the TSI's can get a rattle from the wastegate actuator. In, TSB #2024061 the procedure to replicate the sound is exactly the same as how I can get the sound. However, the TSB is for the newer TSI's, not my FSI. I tried to feel around for the actuator arm, and didn't feel any play. It's super hard to reach, so there definitely could be some play.


So, my current guess is that one of the exhaust lifters has gone bad. The car always has lifter rattle on cold starts, which I assumed was normal, but maybe not. Is it possible that at around 2500 rpm, there is additional pressure on the exhaust valves from boost, but there is not yet enough oil pressure for the lifter to work properly? Would the very slight crustiness on my Cylinder 2 plug be from #2 exhaust valve not opening all the way? If I pull the valve cover, will it be easy to tell if I have a bad lifter? If so, could I just ignore the noise or run some thicker oil to quiet it down? Or is it possible that my wastegate is rattling? It is also worth noting that I recently had a new OEM downpipe put in, so maybe that is leaking. I understand exhaust leaks cam be the cause of some interesting noises.

Thanks for reading all of this. I'm completely open minded and appreciate any advice you have.
Isaac

[Dondbg]

Will tune to this, I have the same symptoms between 1900-2000 rpm and when the engine is fully warmed up.
It's sounds that it's coming from the right side.
I noticed this right after I replaced my thermostat. And damn thing can't be caught on camera !

Hope someone will have an idea.


B7 2.0TQ Avant '08

[Homer]

Rear timing chain tensioner I'm almost certain.

[Dondbg]

Rear timing chain tensioner I'm almost certain.

If that is the case, is it a sign of chain failure. ?


B7 2.0TQ Avant '08

[isaacallen73]

Rear timing chain tensioner I'm almost certain.

Thanks for the quick reply. Come to think of it, the timing chain cover has recently started leaking oil. Didn't think too much of it, as i've never seen an old German car that doesn't leak oil. But there's a good chance its related to my problem.

I'll go ahead and order the parts, seals, and tools. In the meantime, can the car be driven without worry, or is it best to just let it be until I can fix it? Ive heard of chains snapping after a tensioner failure.

Thanks,
Isaac

[Dondbg]

Thanks for the quick reply. Come to think of it, the timing chain cover has recently started leaking oil. Didn't think too much of it, as i've never seen an old German car that doesn't leak oil. But there's a good chance its related to my problem.

I'll go ahead and order the parts, seals, and tools. In the meantime, can the car be driven without worry, or is it best to just let it be until I can fix it? Ive heard of chains snapping after a tensioner failure.

Thanks,
Isaac

Isaac.

Please do me a favour and share with me your shopping list.
Will see if this is fix the issue with you so I will replace my chain and tensioner as well along with my timing belt.

Thank you.


B7 2.0TQ Avant '08

[Theiceman]

Neither tensioner or timing belt are small projects. But they are not related. In fact I think it's worse doing them together


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[Dondbg]

Neither tensioner or timing belt are small projects. But they are not related. In fact I think it's worse doing them together


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Wasn't planning to do them together.
My TB is due soon.

And thanks for that.


B7 2.0TQ Avant '08

[Okedokey]

Dont forget tensioners and water pump when you do it.

[Jet08]

never heard of lifter issues with EA113 engine so I am on board with the timing chain tensioner, from memory there is a mesh screen filter in that area that may need a clean.

[Biged243]

Like others said timing chain at the back of the head. It's a pita and yes you can do the front timing belt at the same time if you take the head off. People have done that for ease at the back of the head. Pray that the chain didn't punch a hole in the housing back there. If so make sure you get all the shrapnel out. If you pull the head then yes, do the water pump and coolant flange and all that good stuff.

[Okedokey]

Change the water pump etc regardless if you change the timing belt. It is considered part of the same service.

[Biged243]

No it's not. Timing belt is the front timing chain is the back. Front is connected to the exhaust cam which also the water pump is connected to. Rear timing chain is connected from the exhaust cam to the intake cam. The tensioner in the rear typicall goes bad which allows slack in the chain at the rear of the head which will give a metallic noise.

[Biged243]

Basically this



Edited: the first pic didn't work

[Dondbg]

will give a metallic noise.

Will the noise be continuous or under certain rpm and varies from one car to other.

I'm going to try to record this noise.

As a faulty chain tensioner (in my opinion) should "noise " all the time. Am I wrong ?


B7 2.0TQ Avant '08

[Biged243]

You would think it could be with load it puts tension on the chain and when it hit certain rpm the vvt changes and lets it slap

[Biged243]

Also op if you think it's the wastegate you would most likely hear at idle in say a parking garage a dinging type metallic sound of the waste gate barely being able to stay closed. Typically it's too faint to hear with the rpms higher and road noise.

[Theiceman]

Wasn't planning to do them together.
My TB is due soon.

And thanks for that.


B7 2.0TQ Avant '08

I was referring to your post #6 where you said "I will replace my chain and tensioner as well along with my timing belt."

this is all just my personal opinion ....

IF you discover it is the timing chain tensioner it is TOTAL overkill to take the head off to do this. You can just plan it out and take your time ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzsBQndgdQ&t=173s

can you dig it ?

If you are not overly experienced with vw/ Audi engine repair doing this project standalone is advisable. it is a little tricky to get the exhaust and intake cams lined up, even with the tools. But certainly doable with the help of this board and the internet.

When you do the timing belt you have to align the crank and cam in perfect timing and replace a bunch of parts, again tricky but doable.

To do them together now you have an awful lot going on timing both cams together and making sure at the same time that aligns with the crank. Certainly doable for an experienced higher level DIY guy but not for a less experienced DIY guy. Not sure of your experience so just making you aware.

The video I sent I found very good so look it over.

of course we don't know anything for a fact yet .. so now the dumb question of the day ... did you check your cam follower ?

[klrider44]

I was referring to your post #6 where you said "I will replace my chain and tensioner as well along with my timing belt."

this is all just my personal opinion ....

IF you discover it is the timing chain tensioner it is TOTAL overkill to take the head off to do this. You can just plan it out and take your time ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzsBQndgdQ&t=173s

can you dig it ?

If you are not overly experienced with vw/ Audi engine repair doing this project standalone is advisable. it is a little tricky to get the exhaust and intake cams lined up, even with the tools. But certainly doable with the help of this board and the internet.

When you do the timing belt you have to align the crank and cam in perfect timing and replace a bunch of parts, again tricky but doable.

To do them together now you have an awful lot going on timing both cams together and making sure at the same time that aligns with the crank. Certainly doable for an experienced higher level DIY guy but not for a less experienced DIY guy. Not sure of your experience so just making you aware.

The video I sent I found very good so look it over.

of course we don't know anything for a fact yet .. so now the dumb question of the day ... did you check your cam follower ?

I am planning to do my cam chain and tensioner for the first time very soon. I bought the alignment tools and the polydrive socket that is needed for the job. So if anyone needs the tool I will gladly rent them out.


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[Theiceman]

I am planning to do my cam chain and tensioner for the first time very soon. I bought the alignment tools and the polydrive socket that is needed for the job. So if anyone needs the tool I will gladly rent them out.


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just one word of advice.. those are cam alignment tools , not cam " locking tools" I have heard of many stories of guys thinking these are cam locking tools and destroying them trying to get the cam bolt off.

[FCPEuro]

I was referring to your post #6 where you said "I will replace my chain and tensioner as well along with my timing belt."

this is all just my personal opinion ....

IF you discover it is the timing chain tensioner it is TOTAL overkill to take the head off to do this. You can just plan it out and take your time ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzsBQndgdQ&t=173s

can you dig it ?

If you are not overly experienced with vw/ Audi engine repair doing this project standalone is advisable. it is a little tricky to get the exhaust and intake cams lined up, even with the tools. But certainly doable with the help of this board and the internet.

When you do the timing belt you have to align the crank and cam in perfect timing and replace a bunch of parts, again tricky but doable.

To do them together now you have an awful lot going on timing both cams together and making sure at the same time that aligns with the crank. Certainly doable for an experienced higher level DIY guy but not for a less experienced DIY guy. Not sure of your experience so just making you aware.

The video I sent I found very good so look it over.

of course we don't know anything for a fact yet .. so now the dumb question of the day ... did you check your cam follower ?

That is actually a pretty good video on the repair and the tools needed to get it done correctly, some helpful information on there. I would also agree to check the pump cam follower while you were at it, but I would think your issue is the aforementioned upper chain tensioner, very common problem I have been seeing on customers and the BPY 2.0T motors lately.

Chain tensioner number is 06F109217A, we carry OE units from INA now (have been waiting for these for some time as all we could source for a time was genuine): https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...ner-06f109217a

Camshaft Locking (read: alignment tool) from CTA : https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...-tool-cta-2878

Special Socket : https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...facturing-1036

Upper Timing Chain part number 06D109229B : https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/aud...ain-06d109229b

[klrider44]

just one word of advice.. those are cam alignment tools , not cam " locking tools" I have heard of many stories of guys thinking these are cam locking tools and destroying them trying to get the cam bolt off.

Yea I have heard some of the knockoff alignment tools break pretty easy. If that video in this post is the one one im thinking of. He uses vice grips to help hold everything in place while removing that stubborn cam bolt.


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[Theiceman]

Yea I have heard some of the knockoff alignment tools break pretty easy. If that video in this post is the one one im thinking of. He uses vice grips to help hold everything in place while removing that stubborn cam bolt.


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yes we had one guy on here go ape because he got his car back from the dealer and found teeth marks in the cam between lobes. So obviously the dealer does this also . I would think it perfectly acceptable as you are no where near the lobes and is an excellent way to reduce stress on the tool , but he was pretty upset about the whole thing so I just let it go .

Keep us updated on how it goes.

[klrider44]

yes we had one guy on here go ape because he got his car back from the dealer and found teeth marks in the cam between lobes. So obviously the dealer does this also . I would think it perfectly acceptable as you are no where near the lobes and is an excellent way to reduce stress on the tool , but he was pretty upset about the whole thing so I just let it go .

Keep us updated on how it goes.

Will do, I keep putting it off but I just need to do it. I will be doing a carbon clean and deleting my intake flaps at the same time.


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[Theiceman]

Will do, I keep putting it off but I just need to do it. I will be doing a carbon clean and deleting my intake flaps at the same time.


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well you are not too far from me so just motivate yourself the same way I do ... "imagine if this really broke in February and I had to do it !!!! "

[Biged243]

Make sure you read up on the flap delete. Make sure your tuned for it.

[klrider44]

Make sure you read up on the flap delete. Make sure your tuned for it.

JHM said they are working on a tune for it. I don't really understand how much those flaps effect the car running anyway


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[Dondbg]

I was referring to your post #6 where you said "I will replace my chain and tensioner as well along with my timing belt."

this is all just my personal opinion ....

IF you discover it is the timing chain tensioner it is TOTAL overkill to take the head off to do this. You can just plan it out and take your time ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuzsBQndgdQ&t=173s

can you dig it ?

If you are not overly experienced with vw/ Audi engine repair doing this project standalone is advisable. it is a little tricky to get the exhaust and intake cams lined up, even with the tools. But certainly doable with the help of this board and the internet.

When you do the timing belt you have to align the crank and cam in perfect timing and replace a bunch of parts, again tricky but doable.

To do them together now you have an awful lot going on timing both cams together and making sure at the same time that aligns with the crank. Certainly doable for an experienced higher level DIY guy but not for a less experienced DIY guy. Not sure of your experience so just making you aware.

The video I sent I found very good so look it over.

of course we don't know anything for a fact yet .. so now the dumb question of the day ... did you check your cam follower ?

Thanks heaps for the details man!

I'm not overly experienced with vw/audi engine repairs but I'm mechanically inclined person let's put it this way, this is the first time I'm doing this and no I will not do them together of course, pardon my English, it's not my first language.

As you can see I'm not an old AZ member , I owned 3 B7s since 2006 and this is my third and I decided to maintain it myself and so I joined AZ and so far so good, without this forum and the guys here I wouldn't be able to do much in this short time.

TB is straight forward job as long as you know what you are doing, there is A1auto video on YouTube and those guys details the steps really good.

let me ask now. checking the cam follower for damage, you think this noise coming from there ?

My engine is BWE, I've some other engine code mention.

Sorry OP if I'm hijacking your thread but in my opinion this still related to the issue you and I having.



B7 2.0TQ Avant '08

[Biged243]

JHM said they are working on a tune for it. I don't really understand how much those flaps effect the car running anyway


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My understanding is, They help with idle and to smooth the turbulence throughout the rpm range. From what I understand also is it doesn't do much good as performance wise unless you go bt. There isn't enough restriction for anything less than a bt. However I might be wrong I just know it is complicated to get the car to run right with out them.

[vce1232000]

Re-that pozi bolt is a "BEYATCH" on the exhaust cam. We usually both cams if the bolt doesnt usually

[Okedokey]

Not sure if it has been covered but get the genuine cam locking tool.

[tloft4]

Not sure if it has been covered but get the genuine cam locking tool.

in the least trolly way possible ; post #22

[funkypterodacty]

Is this the genuine tool ? https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...A1AUFI5NHGNZ61

Going to be tackling my rear timing chain very soon as well, any tips would be greatly appreciated.

[klrider44]

My understanding is, They help with idle and to smooth the turbulence throughout the rpm range. From what I understand also is it doesn't do much good as performance wise unless you go bt. There isn't enough restriction for anything less than a bt. However I might be wrong I just know it is complicated to get the car to run right with out them.

I am JHM stage 3 so maybe I will see extremely minimal gains. I just don't want to have to deal with another failing motor or flap.


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[klrider44]

Not sure if it has been covered but get the genuine cam locking tool.

I bought the assenmacher one. Heard nothing but good things about it.


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[Okedokey]

I bought the assenmacher one. Heard nothing but good things about it.


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Yeah, thats the one I am referring to. By far the best.

[isaacallen73]

just one word of advice.. those are cam alignment tools , not cam " locking tools" I have heard of many stories of guys thinking these are cam locking tools and destroying them trying to get the cam bolt off.

Thanks for the info. What is the best way to hold the exhaust cam without putting too much stress on the tool? Are vice grips on the cam the best method?

Re-that pozi bolt is a "BEYATCH" on the exhaust cam. We usually both cams if the bolt doesnt usually

That is definitely the step I am concerned about. Do you (or anyone else) have any advice for getting it out without stripping the bolt? I'd definitely rather not be pulling the cams.


Thanks to everyone for the help!
Isaac

[vce1232000]

That is definitely the step I am concerned about. Do you (or anyone else) have any advice for getting it out without stripping the bolt?

Go to church the prior Sunday and "PRAY" you ass off..................
But on a serious note. Some do come off without issue. Just pray your one of them

[Okedokey]

Mine came out fine. You'll need the proper polydrive, a large shifter and probably a cheater bar to break it loose. Ensure you tap the polydrive socket deep into the bolt with a mallet of some type.

[Ringsby4]

Mine came out fine. You'll need the proper polydrive, a large shifter and probably a cheater bar to break it loose. Ensure you tap the polydrive socket deep into the bolt with a mallet of some type.

Don't even try it without a polydrive bit ( its 10mm P/D ) and that bit has to be lined up perfectly.I have a bit ~75mm long, I'm making a teflon circular guide the OD of which will fit cam sprocket ID with a hole in the center for the bit ~ 8mm in my case-then the bit can't slip to the side damaging the P/D screw..
Also if you do the timing belt at the same time,you can use the old belt around the exhaust front toothed pulley and a large quick-action clamp,pinched in tight to hold the cam whilst you undo the Polydrive sprocket at the other end - probably a far more secure cam holder than the rod type.....
Does that make sense ?.....