GT260+ and other race oriented fuels

[Ze_Nardo6]

Finally flashed my stage 2 93 octane file yesterday since my AMS pipes were installed (will discuss that more in my build thread). Ultimately I will be running a 104 file when I start getting back to the track in a few months when it's sub +5000DA out here . On that note, I've never purchased or run race fuel before, only e85 on my previous car which was pump gas at nearest station to my home.

To those that purchase/run 104 octane fuel on a somewhat regular basis, how do you order (in terms of scale) and how/when do you pump into the tank? It seems it's either a 5 gallon container (not enough) or a 55 gallon drum (a bit much?). Recommendations on type of fuel? Seems Sunoco GT260+ is the favorite here. I would imagine wanting to drain as much of the pump gas as possible from your tank before filling, but wondering how low one can really get the tank.

[brad281]

I would run mine down to 5-10 miles to empty, then add a 5 gallon drum of MS109. Drive conservatively on the race gas file for 20-30 miles, which happens to be the distance to the track. This was in my 3.0T Q5 on an APR stage 2, and it ran really strong with that file and fuel. On the way back to the dealer to flash the 93 file back to the car, I'd just baby it if I had to add some pump gas back in the car.

With EPL, I'm not sure how long the adaptation period for the race file is, so you might need to add 10 gallons of ms109, if you were going that route, to properly adapt the car to the file.

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[HeelBuff]

I use MS109 (105 octane) but I run my car all the way empty before I add it. I want max performance and min risk of damage due to knock.

[Ze_Nardo6]

Is MS109 a higher performing fuel than GT260+?

I understand it's 105 vs 104 but curious as to the quality

[RSLRS71]

GT260+ is the ONLY way to go for highest UNLEADED race fuel...i Buy the 55gal drum and have put full tanks in, but have since cut down to 10gal load. when not running the 104, i run the 100 (GT260 via pump) nothing less. i have a distributor i get my drum from. the VP109 is also good, but the price dif doesn't justify it IMO.

[cobrario]

Is MS109 a higher performing fuel than GT260+?

I understand it's 105 vs 104 but curious as to the quality

it's horizontal comparison prob not a vertical one, my understanding is VP Fuels are very good as well, the fastest domestic RS pass was done on VP with Kevin about .05 behind although Don has the fastest trap currently on GT260+.

[brad281]

Is the GT260+ oxygenated?

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[Ze_Nardo6]

Great info guys, thanks!

[cobrario]

Is the GT260+ oxygenated?

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Yes - shelf life is kind of an issue so once you open the pail you should use it fairly quickly after.

[HeelBuff]

GT260+ is the ONLY way to go for highest UNLEADED race fuel.

With all due respect, you are wrong.

[Chris Morales]

If you want to run a 104 file, you can and should run the tank down to where your miles left reading on the dash hits zero...then go for 20 miles more. You will need every octane point. Some guys run around on race gas for days before tracking it, but when I run the 100 file, I only need the car to adapt on the way to the track in order to get my added hp. I fill up a 5 gallon jug at the race fuel place, keep it in my trunk, and pour it all in about halfway to the track. Then I get aggressive with the car doing partial pulls on the highway, and when I get close to the track I run it from a low speed all the way through the gears to make sure it's running clean. A 104 file probably requires close to an empty tank before fueling and more time to adapt. Anything for a record, right?

I've only run MS109, blended with varying amounts of 93 (sometimes little to none).

There's a place in Katy that sells GT260+ by the gallon and that is open during the week. I go to a place in The Woodlands to fill my jug with MS109.

[RSLRS71]

If you want to run a 104 file, you can and should run the tank down to where your miles left reading on the dash hits zero...then go for 20 miles more. You will need every octane point. Some guys run around on race gas for days before tracking it, but when I run the 100 file, I only need the car to adapt on the way to the track in order to get my added hp. I fill up a 5 gallon jug at the race fuel place, keep it in my trunk, and pour it all in about halfway to the track. Then I get aggressive with the car doing partial pulls on the highway, and when I get close to the track I run it from a low speed all the way through the gears to make sure it's running clean. A 104 file probably requires close to an empty tank before fueling and more time to adapt. Anything for a record, right?

I've only run MS109, blended with varying amounts of 93 (sometimes little to none).

There's a place in Katy that sells GT260+ by the gallon and that is open during the week. I go to a place in The Woodlands to fill my jug with MS109.

id think load up and run the night before if youre trying to make it worth while at the track....no sense running it just before, barely putting enough mileage on for the adapt to happen, and then showing up at the track with a heatsoaked engine....no bueno for good track times IMO.

[Chris Morales]

That would require more than 5 gallons. Obviously I let the car cool down before I run it. It's a 50 mile highway drive anyway, so there has to be a cool down. But the barely putting mileage on it to adapt point is well taken. Ideal would be to stay the night at a hotel near the track. But the shit don't mean that much to me.


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[cobrario]

My car is a garage queen so it's never not on 104, no adaptation problems here

[Ze_Nardo6]

I would more than likely run it hard for a day with 104 before the track to make sure it's fully adapted. Probably worth the extra $40 in fuel to make sure car is at optimal levels

[RSLRS71]

I would more than likely run it hard for a day with 104 before the track to make sure it's fully adapted. Probably worth the extra $40 in fuel to make sure car is at optimal levels

def got to have the OPTIMAL set up when going to the track to break records...whats the point otherwise? if not splitting hairs then why even run the 104 at the track in the first place. cant go 90%...got to go balls deep or else, pull out early.

[cobrario]

I would more than likely run it hard for a day with 104 before the track to make sure it's fully adapted. Probably worth the extra $40 in fuel to make sure car is at optimal levels

Totally agree, Chris' suggestion isn't wrong, Don goes 20 past he runs fast as heck, I went 10 mile and went fast, so
either appears to work well- I drove the 50 miles to the track and it worked for me but I know others who have gassed up right outside and it's worked well for them to, Serpent 10.34 and Kevin 10.30. It appears either strategy works just fine.

def got to have the OPTIMAL set up when going to the track to break records...whats the point otherwise? if not splitting hairs then why even run the 104 at the track in the first place. cant go 90%...got to go balls deep or else, pull out early.

That I agreed on, just maybe less the excessively colorful sexual inuendo

[sciblades]

GT260+ is the ONLY way to go for highest UNLEADED race fuel...i Buy the 55gal drum and have put full tanks in, but have since cut down to 10gal load. when not running the 104, i run the 100 (GT260 via pump) nothing less. i have a distributor i get my drum from. the VP109 is also good, but the price dif doesn't justify it IMO.

I have logs from racing both and i think if you logged your car on ms109 and gt260+ they would not agree with your statement above.

[Ze_Nardo6]

I have logs from racing both and i think if you logged your car on ms109 and gt260+ they would not agree with your statement above.

You're saying the MS109 ran better than the GT260+ on a 104 file?

[cobrario]

I have logs from racing both and i think if you logged your car on ms109 and gt260+ they would not agree with your statement above.

I'm not saying he's right but your Uni logs and his APR will likely yield slightly different results, that said, nothing appears to indicate that for the 4.0TT there is a demonstrably "better" option.

[DGVR6]

For some reason, I feel that ms100 gives me much better performance than 260gt.. I have two 5 gal drums in my garage that I really don't want now lol

[3rdBNCC]

I have run both fuels in my car at the track. My car has performed better on the GT260+ plain and simple, but I hold no bias and will try MS109 again because I know it's been effective for others. Sunoco is just easier for me to get lol.

As for my approach to switching from pump gas to race fuel, let's just say I learned the hard way. Adding the race fuel with 10-20 miles left on the gauge has not worked out nearly as well as running mine completely empty and as Carl stated that's about 20-22 miles after the gauge reads 0. Chris is spot on in my opinion, you should take advantage of every octane point. I either run out of 93 on the way to the track and add 5 gallons of race fuel alongside the road or I run mine out at home and put 10 gallons in. Either way I don't waste a lot of the fuel prior to the track. A couple of solid pulls is all I am doing.

As for getting the fuel into your gas tank. Kevin23 has the simplest spout that screws right into to the can after popping the top. Carl has moved to a battery operated pump (I think) after taking a bath in 104 doing it my way 😂. I use the double filtered funnel from my plastic Sunoco jug. Just fills much faster.

[IowaRS7]

VP Racing fuel seems harder to find as their distribution network is limited. The Sunoco products are more readily available and thus why I imagine APR uses their race fuels when they develop their tunes. If it works out logistically I plan to also go about 20 miles past zero then go straight to 104. Often though that isn't feasible, so on other vehicles I have used a two step process of going from 93 pump gas, to pump gas mixed with race fuel then to pure race fuel. Sometimes its a real pain to time out this transition when a track day is coming up, so a multiple step process is often more feasible. For example, I may have a race day in two days, but need to fuel up to make it to work and back, so instead of adding more pump gas, I will add just enough race fuel to the current pump gas to make to work and back for those days, hopefully taking the tank to near empty when I return home, then add the race fuel. Then on the way to the track I try to do some launching from stop signs/lights and WOT runs using manual mode to prevent going too high in the gears and losing my license!

[ntsantos]

I just found this out a few months ago, in desperate times, there is a "empty fuel tank" function in VCDS. I think it pumps out 2-3 gallons at a time.

From another post in the B8 forum:

Disconnect LPFP up front under the hood.

Get 3-4' of fuel line and re plumb that back into a container/bucket/can (wherever you want it to go).

Control module > engine > basic output tests.

Select, "drain fuel tank"

The LPFP will drain run until it pumps out about 2-3 gallons of fuel (only takes a minute or two). I had to run it twice, then start it a third time.

[Ze_Nardo6]

I think I'll just wait for the fuel gauge to hit 0, drive around locally for 10-15 minutes then continue driving around very near my home with race gas sitting in my beater car. Just drive my car until it literally runs out of gas then throw the race fuel in there. That way I know there's little to nothing left of the 93 pump in the tank

[3rdBNCC]

After driving 15-20 miles past 0, I usually just let it idle in the driveway or at work until it dies.

Because I never know when I will have a chance to track mine (due to the weather), I only put 5-6 gallons of pump gas in it when I hit the station. In Dynamic you can eat up fuel very quickly. I keep race gas at home and the office. Just in case lol

[Ze_Nardo6]

I keep race gas at home and the office. Just in case lol

LOL

[limeypride]

After driving 15-20 miles past 0, I usually just let it idle in the driveway or at work until it dies.

Because I never know when I will have a chance to track mine (due to the weather), I only put 5-6 gallons of pump gas in it when I hit the station. In Dynamic you can eat up fuel very quickly. I keep race gas at home and the office. Just in case lol

Sidebar: I'll infer from this then that you've experienced no negative effects from running the car to a dead stop thereby draining the fuel tank. Back in the day, the lore was that you should never do that due to supposed build up of pollutants--I suspect it was either BS back then or it's just no longer applicable with today's fuel/cars?

[3rdBNCC]

Sidebar: I'll infer from this then that you've experienced no negative effects from running the car to a dead stop thereby draining the fuel tank. Back in the day, the lore was that you should never do that due to supposed build up of pollutants--I suspect it was either BS back then or it's just no longer applicable with today's fuel/cars?

Well I come from that era too and was apprehensive but seeing that these cars have such sophisticated fuel delivery systems unlike cars of my younger years, I feel confident with doing it the way I have been. Obviously there are no guarantees.

[limeypride]

Well I come from that era too and was apprehensive but seeing that these cars have such sophisticated fuel delivery systems unlike cars of my younger years, I feel confident with doing it the way I have been. Obviously there are no guarantees.

Guarantees? I expect a warranty, man!

Yup, understood... I hadn't even given a second thought to the fact that I STILL don't allow my tank to run dry but this post obviously made me question that subconscious behavior.

[hmuller]

For some reason, I feel that ms100 gives me much better performance than 260gt.. I have two 5 gal drums in my garage that I really don't want now lol

APR recommends GT260 for their 100 octane files so I'm wondering why MS100 would perform better. Anyway, if you want to sell the two drums, I may be interested if the price is right and you can bring them to Englishtown for Waterfest on Saturday or on a Wednesday night during test and tune.

[Serpent]

I've done it both ways, when I ran 100 at the track I had run 100 for a couple of days due to having a pump pretty close to my house.

When I ran 104 I ran it until my mile counter was 0 and then Kevin was kind enough to fill up my car with 104, lol. Then we drove to the track gingerly and ran pretty good times in hot summer weather. For next time i'm at the track i will definitely run 104 for a couple of days before the track day and do some hard pulls so car gets used to the tune.

[DGVR6]

APR recommends GT260 for their 100 octane files so I'm wondering why MS100 would perform better. Anyway, if you want to sell the two drums, I may be interested if the price is right and you can bring them to Englishtown for Waterfest on Saturday or on a Wednesday night during test and tune.

I should be going out to Waterfest this Saturday, text me your number

[kevinw23]

I use 3rdBNCC method. I run the car to 0, and then go for about 20 more miles. I then pull over and fill the car with 260+. Then I drive the rest of the way to the track. I have had really good success doing it that way, but now wonder if the better option is to do it exactly the same way, but the day before a track event. Then give the car some launches and spirited runs adapting well before that first run. On both of my recent trips I have run faster and faster with each run, both times ending with a 10.30. If this is accomplished the day before, and you get to the track, cool down, and then run, can you start closer to 10.30, thus getting runs 2-5 into the 10.2's???

I will be at Waterfest to on Saturday and I am scheduled to run the car there, but the temps look mid 80's so it won't be optimum. But, the car has been on 104 only for the last few weeks, so it should be ready to run.

[Ze_Nardo6]

I have had really good success doing it that way, but now wonder if the better option is to do it exactly the same way, but the day before a track event. Then give the car some launches and spirited runs adapting well before that first run. On both of my recent trips I have run faster and faster with each run, both times ending with a 10.30. If this is accomplished the day before, and you get to the track, cool down, and then run, can you start closer to 10.30, thus getting runs 2-5 into the 10.2's???

This makes the most logical sense to me...especially seeing the adaptation period for these cars

[kpriv]

Resurrecting an old thread here as I've been doing some race fuel research. I'm planning to go the IowaRS7 route and buy a 54 gal drum (unless storing bunch of 5-gal cans ends up seeming easier). The main purpose will be blending with shell 91 to make a 93 octane for everyday use, but also have it for 100-octane canyon runs. Based on the comments above, it sounds like the general consensus is that VP and sunoco are the go-to's. Quick google searching tells me I have a VP distributor near me that delivers so I'm going to see how painful shipping is.

A couple questions if you guys don't mind indulging my ignorance:

1) Is the blending route a bad idea for any reason?
2) If choosing VP fuel, is MS-109 the best option? Or if I'm blending anyway, what about the VP 101 - or is the ethanol in VP 101 no good without other fuel system modifications?
3) Last, for the blending calculations should I use the R+M/2 octane of the race fuel since that is how pump gas is calculated? Or use the motor octane figure?

Thanks in advance for any help with a bunch of rookie questions. Here are the links I am looking at for the VP options:
http://www.racefuel.com/vp-101-stree...ed-101-octane/
http://www.racefuel.com/vp-ms109-rac...el-101-octane/

Kyle

[Madtech]

What about c16... any recommendations to run away due to injector issues with any types of odd additives or fuels. I think i have a leaking injector and wanted to run some hot sauce through the system. Any ideas would be appreciated

[orphancrippler]

Nothing wrong with reanimating a zombie, sometimes there's good stuff in there that can help people out...

Anyway, I had this same question, and possibly due to my location and proximity to particular sources of fuel, came to my current route after doing a lot of searching. I live within 10 minutes of an E85 and R15 combo pump, as well as have a Sunoco station that sells 100 Octane 260 GT at the pump ($9.99/gal!!!) I am tuned DS1 Stage 4, with all sorts of mechanical mods backing it up, so the car likes octane and ethanol. There is a Sunoco Racing Fuels distributor, PSC that has almost every offering from Sunoco. They offer local pickup, so I could borrow a van or truck with a ramp, drive an hour, pick up for free and be on my way. Also offer flat rate shipping by weight class, and I think you can get like three 54 gal drums in a shipment before the rate increases, although it is a bit higher to get a lift gate. I am about to order 2 or 3 drums of 260 GT+ (104 octane) and a transfer pump to make my own custom ethanol blends.

I've been mixing at the pump, and watching the ethanol content sensor immediately after refueling, and it seems to adjust and even out after 2-3 miles of driving, and I make sure to jostle the car a bit to shake up the tank. If you're not concerned about ethanol blending, I'd say the same process applies to octane blending. There are good calculators online to put in the quantity and octane of your fuels, and it spits out the total octane of the mix.

I called around to other suppliers, and nobody can beat PSCs prices or shipping, especially with that flat rate option. As for which octane rating to use, use whatever your local fuel is measured in. I am in the US, (as I assume you are) so everything is R+M/2, as are the Sunoco fuels listed on PSCs site, so to make sure you're getting an accurate number, always use the same standard when calculating the average octane of a mix. Most places in the EU use the RON, which is why it looks like they have higher octane fuel, but it's just a different number for the same stuff.

One thing to look out for, and I have talked to others about blending fuels before about, is that you really want to try and stay away from mixing high grade racing fuels with low grade pump gas, ex. 260 GT+ with 87 octane pump gas. Reason being, each will have completely different additives and potentially different densities, along with other characteristics that could result in a less-than-complete blend when you do mix them. Obviously what applies to 87 applies to 93 to some extent, but the closer you are to the race gas octane, the better. I also try and keep it the same brand, again with the additives, so I mix Sunoco with Sunoco, but that may be overkill.

Either way, there is no reason you can't make your own blends, and a good way to tell if it's blending completely would be to take a glass container and mix them in the ratio that you plan to put into the car, let it sit overnight to simulate sitting in the tank in your garage or driveway, and check to see if there is any stratification or other signs that it may not be completely blended.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to share my experience with doing this, and let people know about PSC, as I haven't been able to find anyone else that has their selection, prices or shipping rates.

Sent from my Galaxy S20 Ultra 5G

[daytona rs7]

Nothing wrong with reanimating a zombie, sometimes there's good stuff in there that can help people out...

Anyway, I had this same question, and possibly due to my location and proximity to particular sources of fuel, came to my current route after doing a lot of searching. I live within 10 minutes of an E85 and R15 combo pump, as well as have a Sunoco station that sells 100 Octane 260 GT at the pump ($9.99/gal!!!) I am tuned DS1 Stage 4, with all sorts of mechanical mods backing it up, so the car likes octane and ethanol. There is a Sunoco Racing Fuels distributor, PSC that has almost every offering from Sunoco. They offer local pickup, so I could borrow a van or truck with a ramp, drive an hour, pick up for free and be on my way. Also offer flat rate shipping by weight class, and I think you can get like three 54 gal drums in a shipment before the rate increases, although it is a bit higher to get a lift gate. I am about to order 2 or 3 drums of 260 GT+ (104 octane) and a transfer pump to make my own custom ethanol blends.

I've been mixing at the pump, and watching the ethanol content sensor immediately after refueling, and it seems to adjust and even out after 2-3 miles of driving, and I make sure to jostle the car a bit to shake up the tank. If you're not concerned about ethanol blending, I'd say the same process applies to octane blending. There are good calculators online to put in the quantity and octane of your fuels, and it spits out the total octane of the mix.

I called around to other suppliers, and nobody can beat PSCs prices or shipping, especially with that flat rate option. As for which octane rating to use, use whatever your local fuel is measured in. I am in the US, (as I assume you are) so everything is R+M/2, as are the Sunoco fuels listed on PSCs site, so to make sure you're getting an accurate number, always use the same standard when calculating the average octane of a mix. Most places in the EU use the RON, which is why it looks like they have higher octane fuel, but it's just a different number for the same stuff.

One thing to look out for, and I have talked to others about blending fuels before about, is that you really want to try and stay away from mixing high grade racing fuels with low grade pump gas, ex. 260 GT+ with 87 octane pump gas. Reason being, each will have completely different additives and potentially different densities, along with other characteristics that could result in a less-than-complete blend when you do mix them. Obviously what applies to 87 applies to 93 to some extent, but the closer you are to the race gas octane, the better. I also try and keep it the same brand, again with the additives, so I mix Sunoco with Sunoco, but that may be overkill.

Either way, there is no reason you can't make your own blends, and a good way to tell if it's blending completely would be to take a glass container and mix them in the ratio that you plan to put into the car, let it sit overnight to simulate sitting in the tank in your garage or driveway, and check to see if there is any stratification or other signs that it may not be completely blended.

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to share my experience with doing this, and let people know about PSC, as I haven't been able to find anyone else that has their selection, prices or shipping rates.

Sent from my Galaxy S20 Ultra 5G

do you negotiate?

per PSC website...
54 gal 260GT = $8.34/gal
54 gal 260Gt+ = $9.50/gal

once you factor in trucking/gas/time....is the savings really worth it? unless of course they actually sell at a lower rate than advertised.

[orphancrippler]

No I didn't negotiate, and I realize it's only a bit lower, at least for the regular 260GT, but over 108 gallons, the savings pays for the shipping and also the convenience of filling at home, or blending however I want. I don't have another local source for 260GT+, so other than buying a large tank and having it filled (not an option) or buying 5 gal pails (too expensive) this was the most economical and convenient choice for me. I called a few other suppliers, and every one said they would have to special order the drums of 260GT+, and they couldn't even come close to PSCs prices, before and after adding shipping.

I also have the option of picking it up myself, for only the cost of gas driving up and back, and of course my time, but compared to driving 30 minutes each way to pay $10/gal for 260GT, I am much happier just ordering the barrels. Also, some places buy barrels back, so once I get a few I can sell the barrels or take them and get them refilled in the future.

Edit - I guess if you're only going to need a bit every so often, or don't plan to buy more than 1 drum, the savings may be minimal. I just wanted the ability to blend and fill with whatever I want from home, and plan to get multiple drums and see how it works out for me.



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