Braided brake lines... worth it ?

[torrque]

Ok, my brakes are spongy. Or at least compared to the Brembos in the Shelby , they are very mushy, to the extent that I hate them now.

Do stainless steel braided lines make a difference ? I never changed in any of my cars, as I always had good brakes..
My 2001 GTi has Awesome brakes compared to the POS A4.

Bought some new Motul Fluid I used to run on the track, RBF600, but wondering if I should do brake lines too.

Thanks all.

[vce1232000]

worth every penny

[i3oricua]

Ok, my brakes are spongy. Or at least compared to the Brembos in the Shelby , they are very mushy, to the extent that I hate them now.

Do stainless steel braided lines make a difference ? I never changed in any of my cars, as I always had good brakes..
My 2001 GTi has Awesome brakes compared to the POS A4.

Bought some new Motul Fluid I used to run on the track, RBF600, but wondering if I should do brake lines too.

Thanks all.

Stainless steel brake lines will wear out faster than your standard rubber ones. If you read the info on them they are designed for racing and meant to be changed after a certain amount of use. However, I can't say that they will improve or not improve anything. I guess in theory they should since they're designed for race use...If you're having spongy brakes you should check your fluid level and maybe even change it out. You may have old dirty fluid in there and you may have debris in your lines. If you are missing fluid then you have a leak somewhere and you should address that...brake fluid does not evaporate.

[torrque]

Stainless steel brake lines will wear out faster than your standard rubber ones. If you read the info on them they are designed for racing and meant to be changed after a certain amount of use. However, I can't say that they will improve or not improve anything. I guess in theory they should since they're designed for race use...If you're having spongy brakes you should check your fluid level and maybe even change it out. You may have old dirty fluid in there and you may have debris in your lines. If you are missing fluid then you have a leak somewhere and you should address that...brake fluid does not evaporate.

Thanks, not missing any... Been changed 2 years ago when I did all pads and rotors... Used Audi oem fluid. Did some very aggressive mountain driving a few months ago, and they fade like crazy after 20 applications...
It has been just city driven lately, so no need for extra braking, but just feels spongy.
I will just flush to start with, but I was wondering about brake lines.

[texpoops]

They definitely make more of a difference than I thought they would, as far as "wearing out" faster I haven't had any issues after almost 80k miles.


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[aluthman]

I ran my last set for about 60k with no issues, so while the life may be shorter, it's still totally acceptable for street use.

[4rings5stars]

I can't imagine how they'd wear out quicker. It's essentially a corset of metal around the brake hose to keep it from expanding under pressure. Which is why they work well.

Oh and get better pads. Makes a world of difference, too. And lastly some Tyrol pins. Best you'll do outside of a 17z upgrade

[vce1232000]

Best you'll do outside of a 17z upgrade

Cant go wrong with a caliper with multiple pistons for braking thats for sure...............

[i3oricua]

I can't imagine how they'd wear out quicker. It's essentially a corset of metal around the brake hose to keep it from expanding under pressure. Which is why they work well.

Oh and get better pads. Makes a world of difference, too. And lastly some Tyrol pins. Best you'll do outside of a 17z upgrade

I'm not against the lines. I run them myself but just for FYI you can read the last 3 or so lines in the link.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-su...rake-lines-q-a


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[EvolutionArmory]

I had stainless braided lines in my B5. It was very noticeable compared to my wife's car, all else being equal.

[adam044]

I've had this on my list of things to upgrade.

[4rings5stars]

The way I interpreted it was the braid itself can wear through other objects, wires etc, after the protective plastic is gone. I can't recall seeing any failures in recent history, although like anything else I'm sure they exist. YMMV

[vce1232000]

The way I interpreted it was the braid itself can wear through other objects, wires etc, after the protective plastic is gone. I can't recall seeing any failures in recent history, although like anything else I'm sure they exist. YMMV

Ive on cars many years and Ive never SS lines protective plastic worn down. Well @ least on high quality lines that Ive . Cant speak for the cheap thats out there

[torrque]

So you typically do front and rear, or just fronts ?

[adam044]

I can't wait to make Mustang jokes to you.

[yxri]

Definitely change your brake fluid. Brake fluid has a shelf life and needs to be changed every so often. This is because brake fluid soaks up moisture in the air.

[vce1232000]

So you typically do front and rear, or just fronts ?

Most members here just 034 RSB's. They leave the oem fronts alone.

[vce1232000]

I can't wait to make Mustang jokes to you.

The joke will be if he tries to drive that sucker in the snow............. Well thats if he lives in a place that gets snow anyway....

[Charles.waite]

The brake stiffener bushings make a bigger difference than stainless lines. Worn out OEM lines that might be bulging and whatnot, anything will be an upgrade from that.

[Okedokey]

Only ever as good as your tyres.

[Charles.waite]

Only ever as good as your tyres.

Yup. All the other stuff can make a difference in pedal feel though. And while that doesn't affect stopping distance it can make the car more enjoyable to drive.

But for stopping distance reduction, really the only way you can reduce that is by getting stickier tires. That's just how physics works.

[audisick99]

Might want to do a brake fluid flush see if that fixes the spongy feeling


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[oVeRdOsE]

I can't imagine how they'd wear out quicker. It's essentially a corset of metal around the brake hose to keep it from expanding under pressure. Which is why they work well.

Oh and get better pads. Makes a world of difference, too. And lastly some Tyrol pins. Best you'll do outside of a 17z upgrade

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LJiPDAr9f8

[torrque]

I can't wait to make Mustang jokes to you.

Go ahead, I don't mind, I love that car to bits nothing will sway me.

[Brillo]

As Charles says above stiffener bushings may help with overall brake pedal feel. But the main factor (also mentioned above) contributing to a soft feel is air in the lines. So the first order of business is to do a proper brake bleed including a complete change of fluid. This is very easy to do. The caliper bushings can be assessed while you are doing this. If neither of these efforts help much then it's likely that the rubber brake lines have become compliant possibly due to age. Change to new lines front and rear. Stainless lines like the StopTech lines are stiffer so you may want to go that direction. Beyond that the only other things affecting brake system compliancy is the condition of the master piston seals and perhaps the softness of the brake pads. You may consider refurbishing the master cylinder/piston. Lastly, if brake work has been done on your vehicle in the past they may have used brake pad anti-squeal shims between the caliper pistons and pads. If not installed properly, they will add to the spongy feel at the brake pedal. Check all this while bleeding the brakes. If you go to stainless lines you must get exact fit and install properly (no unusual bends, twists, or stretch fitting) as stainless lines are much more stress sensitive to routing than OEM lines. This would be my approach based on what you describe.

[torrque]

As Charles says above stiffener bushings may help with overall brake pedal feel. But the main factor (also mentioned above) contributing to a soft feel is air in the lines. So the first order of business is to do a proper brake bleed including a complete change of fluid. This is very easy to do. The caliper bushings can be assessed while you are doing this. If neither of these efforts help much then it's likely that the rubber brake lines have become compliant possibly due to age. Change to new lines front and rear. Stainless lines like the StopTech lines are stiffer so you may want to go that direction. Beyond that the only other things affecting brake system compliancy is the condition of the master piston seals and perhaps the softness of the brake pads. You may consider refurbishing the master cylinder/piston. Lastly, if brake work has been done on your vehicle in the past they may have used brake pad anti-squeal shims between the caliper pistons and pads. If not installed properly, they will add to the spongy feel at the brake pedal. Check all this while bleeding the brakes. If you go to stainless lines you must get exact fit and install properly (no unusual bends, twists, or stretch fitting) as stainless lines are much more stress sensitive to routing than OEM lines. This would be my approach based on what you describe.

Thank you sir. Will do flush first, and then decide if SS lines are needed.. I mean I can lock up wheels/trigger ABS right now, just that the pedal travels a lot for that to happen, and way more than I am used to.
I am using OEM pads and Meyle rotors, on all 4 corners.

[Charles.waite]

The OEM pads are sorta garbage too. I would look into some aftermarket performance pads. OEM pads tend to offer weird braking performance.

[RG4]

Maybe look into drilled/slotted rotors? Increased cooling should help with brake fade. Definitely do SS lines. Made a world of difference on my mk6 GTI and planning to do them on my B8 as well.


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[torrque]

I don't know... Mainly concerned with sponginess now.. Fade, different story, it's not a track car.

[Theiceman]

Something is wrong and it has nothing to do with SS brake lines.
My car is on oe pads and it stops outstandingly. Only issue is brake dust. Definitely sounds like air in the line or bad mc.


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[Charles.waite]

Maybe they're fine and he's just used to a harder pedal in his mustang? Saying the brakes are spongy is a very subjective description.

[Theiceman]

Maybe they're fine and he's just used to a harder pedal in his mustang? Saying the brakes are spongy is a very subjective description.

this is true ... but after driving my company 2016 Murano and then getting in The Audi I nearly fired myself through the windshield ( okay maybe no comparison )

[Brillo]

Maybe they're fine and he's just used to a harder pedal in his mustang? Saying the brakes are spongy is a very subjective description.

That's a good point. I just recently drove a friend's late model Shelby and the brakes were hard as a rock. The clutch had a very different feel as well.

[torrque]

Maybe they're fine and he's just used to a harder pedal in his mustang? Saying the brakes are spongy is a very subjective description.

Ok. I spent 2 hours with the old girl today, and flushed all brake fluid with Motul RBF600. a full liter of it. Bled the brakes the proper way, with someone at the wheel, pumping, sitting on brake, bleeding. Pumping again, sitting on brake, bleeding.

NO CHANGE. Still spongy. Maybe , juuuuust maybe a tad better which I expect due to newer fluid, but nothing to write home about .... Pedal travels over half way to lock wheels and set the abs in motion.

Ok, not comparing it to the GT350, not fair. Those are new 6 piston Brembos front, and 4 pistons back, with floating disks which expand on a pin system for improved ventilation and cooling. After 10 laps on the track they were just like I started, rock hard....

... but My GTI which is 6 years older than the Audi, and has firmer brakes. I also have a water content meter for the brake fluid, and the GTI is older, it shows over 4% water. And brakes are still hard as a rock.
Must be either : a. master cylinder problem of b.Crappy pads or/and disks.

Did anyone successfully bled the abs pump electronically with vag-com and had improved pedal feel ? That is one thing I have not done.

[Brillo]

Question - With the engine off can you quickly pump up the system so that the brake pedal pressurizes at a higher level? Then turn the engine on so that the ABS is active and see if you can pump it up. And if you can pump it up with the engine on does the pedal slowly travel down? When pumped up (if you can) and slowly moving down points to the master cylinder/piston seals. The pedal moving half way down is not good and makes me think that there may be a region of corrosion in the master cylinder. If, when you get beyond that half-way point, the cylinder is good again, the piston seals might be re-engaging, and you are getting pressure back. If the above doesn't happen, that would point away from a master cylinder/piston seal problem.

[Brillo]

Further comments - If you can pump your brakes up with the engine on and the pedal holds its position that usually means there is too much compliancy in the system. This points to the pads, pad backing plate/anti-squeal system, or the old rubber brake lines. But from what your are describing the old rubber lines alone cannot account for that much pedal travel. Regarding ABS, with the engine on the ABS system is active but not functioning (because no wheels are skidding relative to the other wheels). In other words, the valves for each wheel in the ABS unit are closed and any air in the reservoir and ABS pump should not come into play. Bleeding the system as you have done should also bleed any air from the ABS unit on the brake pedal side of the valves. Only by having the ABS system function by you driving it and skidding one tire or one set of tires (as if one side of you car were on gravel and the other side on clean pavement) would there be the potential of re-introducing air back into the system (brake lines). This is air in the reservoir/pump side of the ABS system.

[Okedokey]

Further comments - If you can pump your brakes up with the engine on and the pedal holds its position that usually means there is too much compliancy in the system. This points to the pads, pad backing plate/anti-squeal system, or the old rubber brake lines. But from what your are describing the old rubber lines alone cannot account for that much pedal travel. Regarding ABS, with the engine on the ABS system is active but not functioning (because no wheels are skidding relative to the other wheels). In other words, the valves for each wheel in the ABS unit are closed and any air in the reservoir and ABS pump should not come into play. Bleeding the system as you have done should also bleed any air from the ABS unit on the brake pedal side of the valves. Only by having the ABS system function by you driving it and skidding one tire or one set of tires (as if one side of you car were on gravel and the other side on clean pavement) would there be the potential of re-introducing air back into the system (brake lines). This is air in the reservoir/pump side of the ABS system.

I found the pedal bleeding was insufficient.

[4rings5stars]

ABS Bleed via VAGCOM?

[Brillo]

Yes, if you really suspect air in the pump section of the ABS, VAGCOM, as I understand it, will have to be employed to independently activate the valves in the ABS unit to bleed them. I have to admit that I've never done this, nor have ever needed to do this but have successfully bled plenty of brake systems with ABS including a number of A4s.

If torrque follows the steps outlined above he should be able to systematically determine what the problem is, and then determine if he needs to bleed the pump side of the ABS unit. He initially asked about ss lines, but what he describes sounds to me like it is way beyond what ss will solve.

Okeydokey I'm curious why you found traditional pedal bleed insufficient. Any theory on why this didn't work for you?

torrque Keep us posted on your findings.

[torrque]

Question - With the engine off can you quickly pump up the system so that the brake pedal pressurizes at a higher level? Then turn the engine on so that the ABS is active and see if you can pump it up. And if you can pump it up with the engine on does the pedal slowly travel down? When pumped up (if you can) and slowly moving down points to the master cylinder/piston seals. The pedal moving half way down is not good and makes me think that there may be a region of corrosion in the master cylinder. If, when you get beyond that half-way point, the cylinder is good again, the piston seals might be re-engaging, and you are getting pressure back. If the above doesn't happen, that would point away from a master cylinder/piston seal problem.

Yes, with engine off it is hard as a rock, it pressurizes very high. If engine is running, if you pump it it will become harder and stay up. But if you keep pressing the pedal, it travels down slowly about half way, point where it kinda locks up. pumping again will make it harder, etc.
On the road, the feeling is pretty spongy, as to come to a complete stop like emergency lock, to get the abs to flash, you need to push it almost all the way down. Normal driving, probably half way.

So there is braking, car can lock up wheels. But the feeling is not very secure. I remember on my wife's A3, I upgraded the caliper carriers to a TT carrier, and used TT disks which are bigger... I had improved brakes, and some of the sponginess was gone, but some has still remained. I wonder if the problem there was also ABS unit bleeding, as it was similar. Or all Audi brakes are like this, which I doubt. They did not win several rally championships on spongy brakes.