New RS3 and A4 have double clutch transmission, but not the B9 S4, why???

[sgrassojr]

Question - Is it accurate that the new RS3 coming this summer will have the double clutch here in the states? From what I read, I think it will. I am wondering why Audi would remove the wonderfully engaging double clutch from the S4 and use it for the RS3 - and even the A4? Any thoughts on what Audi was thinking here - how can a few extra miles per gallon really be so important in this kind of car? It's that lack of a double clutch that has to have many thinking RS3 or M3, no? My personal opinion here , but the fun factor of the outgoing S4 had a lot to do with the transmission.

[will13k7]

they probably didn't want to spend the resources designing a new one that can handle the added torque and be within their safety margins for reliability.

[sgrassojr]

But the new RS3 coming this summer I think has much more torque - and it gets the double clutch.

[will13k7]

But the new RS3 coming this summer I think has much more torque - and it gets the double clutch.

different platform, haldex vs. torsen, so different designs. its a 's' car and not a 'rs' car, so it doesn't need to have dual clutch to compete with the C43 AMG or 340i. so why bother?

maybe they also got tired of american's complaining about how rough the dsg was and dealing with its higher failure rate.

just guessing of course.

[sgrassojr]

will- good point, but why then did Audi use the DCT in the brand new A4?

[LINDW4LL]

New RS3 and A4 have double clutch transmission, but not the B9 S4, why???

Audi has cited smoothness and torque limits as reasons for the Tiptronic. The torque reasoning is bogus as the C7 S6 has DSG and makes over 400 ft-lb in factory form. As to the smoothness aspect- while true, that reasoning doesn't make much sense either given that they now equip DSG as standard on every standard model (A3, A4, A5, Q5 etc)

[sgrassojr]

Tiptronic is "smoother." still, that does not seem like a great reason to take out the DSG when other Audi new models, even the new A4, are getting the Dual clutch. The only reason I see here is possibly the mileage. Comparing window stickers of the new A4 and new S4 - they both have similar gas mileage . . . BUT it would seem that people buying an A4 are more concerned about gas mileage. why give the new A4 and other models like the new RS3 coming this summer the dual clutch and take it out of the s4. only audi knows.......

[will13k7]

will- good point, but why then did Audi use the DCT in the brand new A4?

My guess was since they were able to reuse or slightly downgrade the one they used in the b8 s4's?

LINDW4LL points out their official answer doesn't make much sense, so its just marketing talk to cover up the real reasoning.

I think they just realized they don't need it to complete, the 8speeds have gotten good enough, and so it wasn't worth the redesign effort.

[JohnEnglish]

Audi said that customers prefer the smoothness of traditional torque converter based transmissions. The DSG that's in the A4 is not the same as the DSG that was in the B8 S4. It was re-engineered to be a lot smoother. It also handles less power and is cheaper than the ZF 8 speed.

[RudyH]

The Porsche Macan GTS / Turbo and S for that matter) does just fine with the dual clutch transmission. It's in the parts bin to pick up at Audi's will. That said if / when a Porsche sedan (Pajun) comes along, it will likely share a lot of parts with the S4 / S5 - so there is a good chance of strategy by the overall group there.

Audi is simply following suit with Mercedes and BMW, making the S4 line-up with the 340i and C45 AMG slush boxes. As mentioned, the S4 is meant more for the daily driver, weekend fun owners. Leaving the higher performance models M3 and C63 AMG - with dual clutch transmissions - for the real bragging rights. Hopefully the RS4 keeps up.

The biggest downfall in comparisons of the RS7 vs M5, is the gear box. Then again the accountants at Audi don't really read reviews just balance sheets.

[JohnEnglish]

The Porsche Macan GTS / Turbo and S for that matter) does just fine with the dual clutch transmission. It's in the parts bin to pick up at Audi's will. That said if / when a Porsche sedan (Pajun) comes along, it will likely share a lot of parts with the S4 / S5 - so there is a good chance of strategy by the overall group there.

Audi is simply following suit with Mercedes and BMW, making the S4 line-up with the 340i and C45 AMG slush boxes. As mentioned, the S4 is meant more for the daily driver, weekend fun owners. Leaving the higher performance models M3 and C63 AMG - with dual clutch transmissions - for the real bragging rights. Hopefully the RS4 keeps up.

The biggest downfall in comparisons of the RS7 vs M5, is the gear box. Then again the accountants at Audi don't really read reviews just balance sheets.

The RS4 will have the ZF 8 speed just like the RS5.

[Twowheelsgood]

I doubt the choice of ZF really had much to do with handling torque considering the use of DSGs in much more powerful cars. Smoothness may be part of the answer but I suspect also integration with the newer driver assistance elements like traffic jam assist. I really enjoyed the DSG in my 2010 S4 but it periodically got intolerably rough and difficult to use in traffic, particularly in cold weather. No idea why. There was some issue with its tiny brain having to cope with two different driving styles between my wife and me. We more or less got it resolved with a $300 reprogramming by Audi and by making me the nearly sole driver. After testing a B9 S4 I'm satisfied that the ZF will be fine and I will worry less about long term reliability and maintenance costs.

[XLR8 Craig]

I always preferred the ZF 8 in the SQ5 over the DSG in the S4/S5's. I like the tiptronic better than the DSG in daily driven situations. Shifts super fast and always does what I asked of it. DSG never was as predictable and consistent/smooth. I think it was a good choice to switch. I love the DSG in the B9 Allroad, but It isn't as capable. The RS7 uses a ZF8 too.

[mrpoker]

I always preferred the ZF 8 in the SQ5 over the DSG in the S4/S5's. I like the tiptronic better than the DSG in daily driven situations. Shifts super fast and always does what I asked of it. DSG never was as predictable and consistent/smooth. I think it was a good choice to switch. I love the DSG in the B9 Allroad, but It isn't as capable. The RS7 uses a ZF8 too.

I totally agree. I felt the same driving the DCT on my CLA45, very jerky and unpredictable. I didn't think I would love the ZF so much, but I do. Instant response and it's so silky smooth :D

[sgrassojr]

All good points above. Just very odd that the new RS3 coming this summer -- which has much more power, and according to reports will do 3.5 seconds in the 0-60 (better than Audi's claimed 3.9) -- and it gets the DSG!!!

How can that be? Even the brand new A4 gets a DSG (which some here say is a watered down DSG - whatever - but it still is a DSG!). Not to mention the DSG being in the Macan Turbo - which is a super rocket mini SUV. How can it be that the base A4 and what may be their fastest car with the new RS3 get the DGS and the S4 looses it?

I read the audi explanations above, yet seems to be "bogus" like LINDW4LL says in the post here on this thread.

Some Lexus and Infiniti Models will do a 0-60 close to the S4 - but don't excite the driver because of the lack of transmission engagement. and that is what made the outgoing S4 so great - a sleeper daily driver that turned into an exciting drive with manual, or even DSG. I don't think 0-60 is the end all, the car has to also be exciting.

I think Audi was more concerned about gas mileage with the new S4 than they needed to be. Otherwise, my opinion is the car would have had a DSG. All this - my humble opinion.

[JohnEnglish]

The ZF 8 speed is a fantastic transmission. Audi uses it in the RS6, RS7, and S8 plus which have all received positive reviews for their lightening fast shifts. The ZF is a much better transmission for everyday driving. If you live your life a 1/4 mile at a time and regularly drive the car to its limits on your daily commute you might notice a difference.

[4Chio]

All I have to say is stop reading the write ups and go drive one !! The transmission is awesome!

[sgrassojr]

John - I see your point. Good point! However.... I'm not only commenting on the 0-60 or quarter mile - but the actual engagement / excitement - that a DSG transmission adds. It is not about fast shifts alone, in my opinion. It is also about driver connection to the car - and the outgoing S4 beat the 335 (340) in all 3 major magazine comparison / match up test for just that reason. What good is a fast 0-60 or quarter mile if your not having fun getting there? M/H/O. I still can't figure out why - what is probably going to be AUDI's fastest car (NEW RS3) and the AUDI"s slowest car (NEW A4) in the Audi line up gain the DSG transmission when the NEW S4 looses it. Just wondering why did Audi not put the ZF in the new RS3 - a car that all Euro reports say will do 0-60 in 3.5 - which is super car (Lambo / Ferrari) territory?

[LINDW4LL]

All good points above. Just very odd that the new RS3 coming this summer -- which has much more power, and according to reports will do 3.5 seconds in the 0-60 (better than Audi's claimed 3.9) -- and it gets the DSG!!!

How can that be?

The RS3 has a transverse-layout drivetrain and thus Audi is pulling from a totally different parts bin for that car (as compared to the A4/S4). I'm not sure Audi/VW even have a ZF gearbox available for that application; the A3/TT have always been DSG going back a decade +

[sgrassojr]

OK - that makes it clear.

[JohnEnglish]

John - I see your point. Good point! However.... I'm not only commenting on the 0-60 or quarter mile - but the actual engagement / excitement - that a DSG transmission adds. It is not about fast shifts alone, in my opinion. It is also about driver connection to the car - and the outgoing S4 beat the 335 (340) in all 3 major magazine comparison / match up test for just that reason.

Where exactly does the ZF fail in delivering driver engagement / excitement as compared the DSG?

[Jimmy ny]

The DSG was very rough in my RS5. S mode was like it was broken on downshifts. The ZF in my new S5 does shift just as fast and is smoother. Plus it holds more torque. That's a big thing when an ECU tune is ready.
The car to me just isn't that exciting to drive. I don't believe it's the transmissions fault. The car is just very smooth and predictable but sneaky fast.


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[shoe3k]

The Porsche Macan GTS / Turbo and S for that matter) does just fine with the dual clutch transmission. It's in the parts bin to pick up at Audi's will. That said if / when a Porsche sedan (Pajun) comes along, it will likely share a lot of parts with the S4 / S5 - so there is a good chance of strategy by the overall group there.

Audi is simply following suit with Mercedes and BMW, making the S4 line-up with the 340i and C45 AMG slush boxes. As mentioned, the S4 is meant more for the daily driver, weekend fun owners. Leaving the higher performance models M3 and C63 AMG - with dual clutch transmissions - for the real bragging rights. Hopefully the RS4 keeps up.

The biggest downfall in comparisons of the RS7 vs M5, is the gear box. Then again the accountants at Audi don't really read reviews just balance sheets.

The c63 isn't using a dual-clutch transmission.

[dbuxton13]

Ha, the DSG debate continues to pop up and get rehashed every few months. Glad to finally see more folks piping up with better informed and objective reviews of the ZF... it is really quite good! Personally I was relieved they are using it for the new S4 since I keep my cars relatively long term and prefer to use other dedicated cars made for track days. The S4 is the apogee among DDs (presently).

[audinator]

I have had many Audis ... A4's S4's RS5, A7, TT, etc. 10+. I currently have a 2017 A4 with the S-Tronic dual clutch. It is fast. But it is also clunky at slow speeds. Soon I will be picking my 2018 S4 with the Tiptronic ZF 8HP torque-converter transmission. It is also very fast on shifts. But it is way smoother in slow / city situations. It really is a toss-up, one transmission is not necessarily better than the other to me. I too was caught up in the "boohoo no S-Tronic technology awesomeness?" – until I drove the B9 S4 and experienced the ZF 8HP for myself.

I plan to post more of my experience after driving the S4 a while.

[doug97gxe]

http://www.audizine.com/forum/forumd...mer-Experience

[RudyH]

The c63 isn't using a dual-clutch transmission.

Mercedes disagrees with you

The C43 AMG doesn't but the C63 AMG most certainly does - the 7 speed MCT, they even have pictures of all 7 discs from the disc pack on the web site
https://www.mercedes-amg.com/c63.php...rtrain_section

Don't get me wrong, for the S4 the ZF slush box is great, but when you are building a cutting edge performance toy, the last thing you talk up about how smooth a transmission is if the other guy is banging out gears harder faster louder. It would have been better to use the ZF DCT (not the BorgWarner that everyone complains about here), and what the competition and of course Porsche is using.

My biggest problem with dropping the DCT from the B9 was because Audi paid more attention to the S4 then the counter parts in the previous models. The interior with the seats alone felt like Audi put it in a different class. You have the class leading AWD, and yes a turbo engine is great, but the smoothness of a supercharged V6 that felt like a V8, while getting the tuning gains of forced induction made it the perfect package. The ZF wouldn't make me not want the S4 / S5 Sportback for my next car that's for sure, especially with the rest of the package.

[sgrassojr]

Rudy - well said.

"the last thing you talk up about how smooth a transmission is if the other guy is banging out gears harder faster louder. It would have been better to use the ZF DCT (not the BorgWarner that everyone complains about here), and what the competition and of course Porsche is using."

Just a bummer that the new RS3 gets the DCT and the S4 omits it.

[aj6]

I greatly prefer the ZF to the DSG, and I owned both simultaneously for several years. The doom and gloom about no dual clutch in the S4 is greatly overblown.

[JohnEnglish]

I greatly prefer the ZF to the DSG, and I owned both simultaneously for several years. The doom and gloom about no dual clutch in the S4 is greatly overblown.

I seriously don't get it at all.

Let's remember the C63/M3 and S4 are not competitors no matter how many people wish they were. Secondly, I don't think very many people who wish they could bang out gears harder and louder on their daily drive. I'm sure lots of people here like to imagine they're on the final lap at Le Mans during their morning commute but 99.9% of owners don't care.

[dbuxton13]

The problem defined: There exists a subset of folks looking for a track car. Then there is a larger subset of people that want a car that is fun to drive in real life (daily driver). These are two different kinds of people looking at this same car with a highly contrasting background criteria.

I don't give two flips if my transmission shifts in 8 milliseconds (DSG) or 200 milliseconds (ZF). Either shift time is very fast. What I do care about is how much I am going to have to pay long term for the transmission, because I am not a millionaire or willfully indebted person that trades in a car every year or two.

If you are the type of person that MUST have a transmission that blasts through gears for track day, then there are many cars to choose from, just not this one. For you. There will still be people taking the B9 S4 to a track, however, and I bet it will kick ass because it accelerates like a banshee, understeer is a thing of the past, and a delta of .18 seconds between shifts is *nothing*. Whether or not it is "fun" to drive is 100% subjective and up to the individual.

[XLR8 Craig]

Rudy - well said.

"the last thing you talk up about how smooth a transmission is if the other guy is banging out gears harder faster louder. It would have been better to use the ZF DCT (not the BorgWarner that everyone complains about here), and what the competition and of course Porsche is using."

Just a bummer that the new RS3 gets the DCT and the S4 omits it.

Have you guys driven a ZF 8HP equipped car? They can bang gears just as fast as a S-Tronic can. Or at least my butt dyno cant tell a difference in shift speed.

[Okan509]

Mercedes disagrees with you

The C43 AMG doesn't but the C63 AMG most certainly does - the 7 speed MCT, they even have pictures of all 7 discs from the disc pack on the web site
https://www.mercedes-amg.com/c63.php...rtrain_section

Don't get me wrong, for the S4 the ZF slush box is great, but when you are building a cutting edge performance toy, the last thing you talk up about how smooth a transmission is if the other guy is banging out gears harder faster louder. It would have been better to use the ZF DCT (not the BorgWarner that everyone complains about here), and what the competition and of course Porsche is using.

My biggest problem with dropping the DCT from the B9 was because Audi paid more attention to the S4 then the counter parts in the previous models. The interior with the seats alone felt like Audi put it in a different class. You have the class leading AWD, and yes a turbo engine is great, but the smoothness of a supercharged V6 that felt like a V8, while getting the tuning gains of forced induction made it the perfect package. The ZF wouldn't make me not want the S4 / S5 Sportback for my next car that's for sure, especially with the rest of the package.

Still not correct:

The Speedshift MCT transmission from AMG is not a dual-clutch unit either. At this point, some of you are presumably wondering what kind of sorcery drives the cars that come with the AMG Speedshift MCT gearbox. Jeremy Clarkson might reply that black magic is involved, but we like to call it engineering.

In other words, the Speedshift MCT unit from Mercedes-AMG, is a multi-clutch automatic gearbox. Instead of a torque converter, like conventional automatics, it possesses a “clutch pack,” which includes multiple clutches placed together and controlled separately. It is easily differentiated from dual-clutch automatics because it has a single input shaft

It's a hybrid system in the c63.

[JohnEnglish]

Have you guys driven a ZF 8HP equipped car? They can bang gears just as fast as a S-Tronic can. Or at least my butt dyno cant tell a difference in shift speed.

Agreed. All the reviews of the RS6 and RS7 mention how impressed the reviewers were that the ZF can be smooth and docile or bang out hard and fast shifts if you want it to.

[Lmdriver8]

Seriously this gearbox talk is still going on? I have driven both the new A4 and S4 there is no difference in the speed it shifts. It seems all this driver engagement and neging talk about the S4 and its parts always comes from the same person. OP if you want true driver engagement get a Mini Cooper. The reason you don't feel engaged in the new S4 is either you haven't driven one or it is far better of a car than you are a driver and you will never get within a mile of its limit.

[Jet Jockey]

All BS from Audi IMHO...

All new Porsches are going to have the PDK/DSG trannies and all of them have bigger HP and torque numbers.

[Twowheelsgood]

The problem defined: There exists a subset of folks looking for a track car. Then there is a larger subset of people that want a car that is fun to drive in real life (daily driver). These are two different kinds of people looking at this same car with a highly contrasting background criteria.

I don't give two flips if my transmission shifts in 8 milliseconds (DSG) or 200 milliseconds (ZF). Either shift time is very fast. What I do care about is how much I am going to have to pay long term for the transmission, because I am not a millionaire or willfully indebted person that trades in a car every year or two.

Well said. I don't know much about tracking cars but having raced motorcycles for a couple of decades I have a reasonably informed opinion about street vs track bikes. While I'm most comfortable riding sport bikes on the street, a race-prepped bike is the last thing I would want as a daily rider. Too stiff, too loud, too hot and too cramped. It's hard for me to believe that many people are buying S4s for track days. Again speaking without the benefit of experience, I imagine that a nearly 2-ton brick with a high cost for parts and repairs would not be the ideal starting point for a race car. For my DD the B9 S4 will do fine, slush box and all. When I get too old to track motorcycles I'll find something cheap and disposable for a track car or maybe rally car to learn with.

[JohnEnglish]

All BS from Audi IMHO...

All new Porsches are going to have the PDK/DSG trannies and all of them have bigger HP and torque numbers.

Audi never claimed there was a problem was DSG transmissions. Audi specifically said that the DSG transmission they were using on the B8 wasn't suitable for the B9. Instead of redesigned it to handle the increased power they decided to use the ZF instead.

[Jet Jockey]

Audi never claimed there was a problem was DSG transmissions. Audi specifically said that the DSG transmission they were using on the B8 wasn't suitable for the B9. Instead of redesigned it to handle the increased power they decided to use the ZF instead.

Well I love the DSG in the A4 and I would never go back even to a stick!

If I were to buy a Porsche, a GT Porsche it would be with a PDK nothing less.

[01northernS4]

Question - Is it accurate that the new RS3 coming this summer will have the double clutch here in the states? From what I read, I think it will. I am wondering why Audi would remove the wonderfully engaging double clutch from the S4 and use it for the RS3 - and even the A4? Any thoughts on what Audi was thinking here - how can a few extra miles per gallon really be so important in this kind of car? It's that lack of a double clutch that has to have many thinking RS3 or M3, no? My personal opinion here , but the fun factor of the outgoing S4 had a lot to do with the transmission.

+1

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