S4 V8 vs Turbo V6-- ?

[Boris]

Given the tuning capabillties for both cars, and their differences,
Is everyone happy wit their B6 7, over the B5 platform?

I like the B6's look, but the v8 and cramped engine bay make it hard as heck to do anything with...

I enjoy the car dont get me wrong, But at times I a wish it had much more power,
BMW engineers can pull 333 out of straight 6
and their upcoming V8 420..

i know the rs4 has similar figures, but the thing is really a chunk more than the cost of a new m3

Anybody feel me on this, I think the V8 should be pushing alot more from the factory.

[2PUTT]

it all depends on what you are looking for...
they have SC soon to be available for the V8.

the B5 can give you lots of power, yes.
the M3 is the same.

i prefer the B6/B7 V8 just because i like the idea of starting with a car with a very solid engine that would still offer lots of potential. i, myself, will not go all out with any turbos or SCs. i may tinker around with a few bolt-on mods here and there.

again, it all depends on what you are looking for...i tell my wife my B6 S4 is my 4 door porsche that can fit more than 1 set of golf clubs.

what ever floats your boat...thats what i say...my 2 cents...

[whoneedsanm3]

I looked at the E46 M3, but I wanted a Tip/SMG and the god-awful transmission on the M3 was not to be thought of. Bimmer does good SMG's, they just don't use them on the E46 M3. Besides that, the S4 is both more refined and more usable (4 doors anyone) than the M3. I didn't by the S4 to mod (that's what my E36 is for), but as an excellent daily driver with good performance and excellent handling.

That all said, when the new S/C comes out soon from APR is combined with a fullback, I think there is going to be alot of surprise about what the B6 S4 can do compared to FI'd M3's. Much like a CAI, fullback, and chipped S4 is a rude surprise to an M3 with the same mods. E46 M3's just don't pick up much power from those mods, S4's do.

Oh, and, yes, the M3 does get 333hp out of a 3.2L engine, but it does so with nowhere near the torque the S4 has, and has the same or worse gas mileage. Yes, they are faster, but only when driven really hard, and only on dry roads.

If you want a car to drive like its on the track on the time and want a manual, by an M3 by all means (if you also never plan on having more than 1 passanger above 5'4"). The SMG's are ok if you don't plan on using it as a daily driver, but they are ROUGH, even on their smoothest setting. I've had some funny discussions with guys from the Bimmer dealerships here about the number of M3 SMGs traded in or sold after 2-3 months because people hated the transmissions.

E46 M3: Better race/ track car, more mod-able, more fun in an agressive sort of way

B6 S4: More luxurious, better if you don't want a manual, more usable, still fast, still fun

B5 S4: the perfect tuner's car in many ways. Not as "nice" as the B6, but still quite comfortable.

E90 M3: 426bhp 300-320 lb-ft, 4L (-ish) V8. Yes, it'll be a monster, and it'll have a much better transmission on the SMG. But, still not AWD and still not a 4 door. I'm just curious as to the price, since the engine is going to be EXPENSIVE! I'm guessing $65K or so real price ($5K less stripped down), plus the inevitable mark up for those who want theirs the day it arrives in showrooms. Besides, it's been Bangled...

Still, if I want a real go-fast coupe or roadster, I'll by an MZ4 now that they are officially going to be released. The S54 motor (the E46 M3's) in a Z4 will be alot of fun, and combined with the fact that they are considering a coupe version, will be really interesting.



Ultimately, the car I keep contemplating trading my S4 in on is the S6 or RS6 in a year or so when they come out again...

[Boris]

interesting, how much horse are we talking with a supercharger from APR

[Howard Hughes]

I would imagine it would bolt on atleast a 100hp.

[twinsnailsS4]

I was very critical of the B6/B7 platforms because I thought Audi should have made the cars faster/more powerful in view of the competition and how easy it was to mod its predecessor. However, once I drove the newer models, I knew it would take a good amount of work to have the B5 do all the stuff the B6/B7's do well.

If you look at engine alone, the B5 has my vote b/c of the mod potential. But, overall car for car, I don't regret trading in my B5 and I think it is a better car. My car now (B7) handles so much better, its interior is so much nicer, shifter is better, and I don't have all the worry associated with a turbo'd car. With that said, I wouldn't mind buying me a 2000 S4 and turning it into a Stage III monster to play with on the side.

As for comparisons to other cars, there are very few that do everything as well as the S4 (B5, B6 or B7) in a similar package: performance, luxury, AWD, 4 doors, and manual transmission. Anyway, that's my view on our S cars.

[S4arch]

you get some really nice gains out of the V8 with a full-back exhaust and software. I don't know what the numbers are - I personally haven't dyno'd but somewhere around 40-45whp I'd guess. anyway, its enough. plus I feel a lot better about those mods then I would with FI mods...my 2 centavos.

[astris]

Originally posted by whoneedsanm3

That all said, when the new S/C comes out soon from APR is combined with a fullback, I think there is going to be alot of surprise about what the B6 S4 can do compared to FI'd M3's.

Oh, and, yes, the M3 does get 333hp out of a 3.2L engine, but it does so with nowhere near the torque the S4 has, and has the same or worse gas mileage.

If you want a car to drive like its on the track on the time and want a manual, by an M3 by all means (if you also never plan on having more than 1 passanger above 5'4"). The SMG's are ok if you don't plan on using it as a daily driver, but they are ROUGH, even on their smoothest setting. .

Most of what you said is pretty true, but I think some of your statements are a little off.

First, a FI S4 will not stand a chance against a FI E46 M3. Maybe from a stop through 2nd gear, but thats it. There a quite a few FI E46 M3 in the 450-500+ WHP range. Apr is only looking to pick up around 100 hp with the S4 supercharger putting the S4 at 450ish crank hp and a lot heavier.

Way off on the gas mileage. The M3 gets waayyy better mileage. Check a pole on a bmw site. Many people get a combined 18-20 mpg easy, some even more.

True the smg is rough.... if you don't know how to drive it. It takes some getting used to, then it just as smooth as a stick (from my research, not personal experience. I have not driven one)

Anywho, I am not promoting the M3 over the S4, just clarifying. S4 has quality and interior. M3 fun and fast.

Who doesn't want the current S4 to have more power and less weight? It should be lighter and faster. If that was the case, bmw would be going out of business because no one would by an M3. Hopefully audi puts the next gen s4 on a protein diet. Anywho, everyone knows the pro and cons of both cars, just trying to clear things up.

[whoneedsanm3]

Originally posted by astris

First, a FI S4 will not stand a chance against a FI E46 M3. Maybe from a stop through 2nd gear, but thats it. There a quite a few FI E46 M3 in the 450-500+ WHP range. Apr is only looking to pick up around 100 hp with the S4 supercharger putting the S4 at 450ish crank hp and a lot heavier.

Way off on the gas mileage. The M3 gets waayyy better mileage. Check a pole on a bmw site. Many people get a combined 18-20 mpg easy, some even more.

True the smg is rough.... if you don't know how to drive it. It takes some getting used to, then it just as smooth as a stick (from my research, not personal experience. I have not driven one)

1) Most of the FI's M3's out there put down about 450BHP as well. Some of the very heavily tuned, tweaked, and turbo'd (and often rebuilt) E46's are putting down 550-650.

2) Coincidently, many S4 owners also report combined 18-20mpg performance (I do when I'm driving it sanely, which isn't often enough). Both offically report 15-16/23-24 mpg. Both reliably meet those expectations with some moderately sedate driving, although the S4 will be more responsive at fuel efficient RPM's due to the flatter power and, esepcially, toprque curves it has. The E46 M3 drivers I've known have gotten equal or worse mileage to the S4.

3) Yes, it can be smooth, if you are driving it in manual, and if you really work hard at controlling it. The problem is, if you run it in automatic mode, which is where 90% of SMG's live, especially on long commutes and in stop and go traffic, there is no smooth automatic mode. It slams its gear changes. I've driven good SMG's (the one in the 6 series for example), and the one in the M3 isn't one. It was rushed out so the M3 could could be the first car in its price range with such a tranny, and it shows. I expect the E90 M3 to be much better here.

[g2turbo]

It seems the distinction, comparison, performance issues between these cars will likely never rest, giving us the opportunity to have fun jesting between ourselves toiling the merits of both to no known end.

From my perspective, the S4 gleems practicality from almost every angle:
all weatherabilty via AWD
fairly fast via a very elastic V8. I often skip shift and cruise 6th gear at 30mph.
In the Avant form you can haul all sorts of stuff
It has one of the best quality interiors around

I've driven the last gen M3's and I will bow down in the respect that for the ultimate driving machine, they really do perform and feel great.
If the day comes where i can have 2 nice cars an M3 would be a likely candidate. However for the price range I'd have to take a carefull look at the Lotus Esprit V8's, too. Performance wise it's a whole 'nother level for about the same price (used).

But we have a 04 S4 Avant 6MT with sport package, NAV, Norgaro Blue on Blue Alcantara Recaro's, intake, exhaust, wheels and i just love it as an overall package. We're going snowboarding this year and I can say that my wife would not have it with a M3 in the snow-- and i'd be a bit timid, too pedaling such hardware so close to harms way. I've driven Quattro in the snow before and it's so fun and stress-less. Plus in the wet i can launch full throttle, even at an angle, and the rear end steps over smidge and then it's fulll speed pronto. A brand new Corvette couldn't get away from us until 70-80mph because of this fact-- couldn't get the power down:-)
Subaru STI anyone? (haha, i just whacked the bee's nest :8)

[Paul540/m3]

I thought I'd chime in on this discussion as I happen to own both cars in question. A 2002 moded 6spd E46 M3 and a 2004 B6 S4. The M3 is definitely the toy/track car of the two. It is much easier to throw around and the response and driver feedback the car provides in unparalelled. It simply can not be matched by the s4, as I find it a bit more "numb". The s4 on the other hand is the "workhorse/ winter beater" and it does it's job well. The AWD is incredible in the tough Canadian winters and the car is just so easy to drive. Those beautiful recaro's don't hurt it either haha One thing that is irritating is that the S4 sucks gas. The M3, although it does have a small gas tanks as well, is much better on gas. Both cars do their job well and either is a worthy candidate, depending on your needs. I must say I was pleasantly surprised by the Audi's performance, being a BMW man myself and would definitely recomend it to anyone looking for a all season rocket lol

Hope this provides some clarity, but remeber this is just my $0.02

[a4rings]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by whoneedsanm3
[B]1) Most of the FI's M3's out there put down about 450BHP as well. Some of the very heavily tuned, tweaked, and turbo'd (and often rebuilt) E46's are putting down 550-650

I have only heard of one turbo e46 m3 a long time ago, as of now there are no turbo kits out for the e46m3. as for the sc e46m3's putiing down 550-650, thats funny because ICS has just recetnly become the first tuner to get the s54 motor that is in the e46m3 to 500whp, 511 to be exact without NO2 but it did have a fully built motor, rods, pistons, crank ect. a few have gotten to 500+ but they are all on the juice.

[RE5PECT]

if everone keeps throwin in there 2 cents, we might have a biig ass pile of mulah here pretty soon!!!

[whoneedsanm3]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by a4rings
[B]

Originally posted by whoneedsanm3
1) Most of the FI's M3's out there put down about 450BHP as well. Some of the very heavily tuned, tweaked, and turbo'd (and often rebuilt) E46's are putting down 550-650

I have only heard of one turbo e46 m3 a long time ago, as of now there are no turbo kits out for the e46m3. as for the sc e46m3's putiing down 550-650, thats funny because ICS has just recetnly become the first tuner to get the s54 motor that is in the e46m3 to 500whp, 511 to be exact without NO2 but it did have a fully built motor, rods, pistons, crank ect. a few have gotten to 500+ but they are all on the juice.

DAMotorsport has a kit currently under testing that's rated at 550hp, just so as you know...

[S4arch]

uhh...wasn't this thread about the B5 vs B6/7?

[whoneedsanm3]

It was about how the B6/7 and the B5 compared against eachother, especially given the tunability of the Bimmers. So, no, not really just about them. The problem was that people disagreed about how the B6/7 compares to the M3, and just what the M3 can do. Thus all the rest of this ///M talk.

[g2turbo]

I think if we all had our way, we'd own one of each (B5/B6 S4's), and if we had the dough a nice M3 to boot.

About the B5/B6's, though.....i bought the B6

[EvilllEmpirE]

Originally posted by S4arch
you get some really nice gains out of the V8 with a full-back exhaust and software. I don't know what the numbers are - I personally haven't dyno'd but somewhere around 40-45whp I'd guess. anyway, its enough. plus I feel a lot better about those mods then I would with FI mods...my 2 centavos.

bwahahahaha........40-45 "wheelhorsepower"? You must be kidding right...because there is no was a 4.2 V8 get 45 WHP from DP, Exhaust, and Software That would be 58 BHP...which would put a B6/B7 to near 400 bhp with those mods. And we all know that's not the case

[EvilllEmpirE]

Originally posted by whoneedsanm3
1) Most of the FI's M3's out there put down about 450BHP as well. Some of the very heavily tuned, tweaked, and turbo'd (and often rebuilt) E46's are putting down 550-650.

um...there are no FI E46 M3's putting out 550-650 hp......not without nos. The fastest Supercharged M3's have been running the AA SC kit.....which puts anywhere from 450-500ish. Guys like Taza, Divexxtreme (now sold) and ILLM3 (now sold) from the M3 forums are around that figure. Of course....none of them have managed to put better than a 12.4 at 117 at the strip

[firewired]

$65K for the new M3? That is approaching the expected RS4 range. Since they are expected to release a four door version of the next M3, and it is now a better comparison of the two, the E90 M3 or the RS4 which one would you be more inclined to get?

[whoneedsanm3]

Originally posted by EvilllEmpirE
um...there are no FI E46 M3's putting out 550-650 hp......not without nos. The fastest Supercharged M3's have been running the AA SC kit.....which puts anywhere from 450-500ish. Guys like Taza, Divexxtreme (now sold) and ILLM3 (now sold) from the M3 forums are around that figure. Of course....none of them have managed to put better than a 12.4 at 117 at the strip

First of all, damn, people, jump on the person that that was in response to who thought that almost all FI'd M3's were putting down 450-500 WHP, not me. Second, yes I know that no kits currently available break 500 BHP, however, there have been several 550-600BHP M3's custom built with rebuilt engine internals. I've seen one of them over in Germany.

[Meradin]

Originally posted by EvilllEmpirE
bwahahahaha........40-45 "wheelhorsepower"? You must be kidding right...because there is no was a 4.2 V8 get 45 WHP from DP, Exhaust, and Software That would be 58 BHP...which would put a B6/B7 to near 400 bhp with those mods. And we all know that's not the case

I have seem many dyno runs that would confirm those numbers. My baseline was 257 whp and I expect to see ~300 whp after I get my software done in January and run the dyno again. That would put it at about ~400 bhp. I will be sure to post my dyno runs after I get them done.

[S4arch]

^^^ others here with similar mods as me have dyno runs close to 300whp. so no...I wasn't kidding. The fullback exhaust system I have has shown 30whp gains alone.

[EvilllEmpirE]

Originally posted by Meradin
I have seem many dyno runs that would confirm those numbers. My baseline was 257 whp and I expect to see ~300 whp after I get my software done in January and run the dyno again. That would put it at about ~400 bhp. I will be sure to post my dyno runs after I get them done.

I'd like to see that when it happens
PYIU on these boards dynoed at 268 whp on AWE's mustang Dyno....and his mods include: Milltek downpipes, Dahlback non res exhaust, Revo flash, drop in filter He just put in Schrick Cams and plans to Dyno on friday at AWE again...looking for 300 whp. Of course.....you could go to a Dynojet that measure "my little happy ponies" and get close to 300 whp.....but that's just an optimistic number from an optimistic Dyno

[a4rings]

Originally posted by whoneedsanm3
DAMotorsport has a kit currently under testing that's rated at 550hp, just so as you know...

I am aware of the DA kit, the one where they have an intercooler sitting on the ground in front of an e46 m3 and say that they have a turbo m3. Also its 550mhp. or mert horse power, you have an m3 u should know what i'm talking about

[quicksilver_S]

Just to get back on topic... Here are my 2 cent on this.

I originally had the B5 S4 and opt for the B6 S4 after thinking about it long and hard. it was a tough choice to make.

In a nutshell, to me, the 2.7TT is a mechanics car. You have to have a lot of time dedicated to work on it whenever it needs it or just for the heck of it. Pure devotion to the car.

I am a carnut and a do it yourselfer as well but I couldnt bear the idea of having to work on a car middle of winter during a blizzard and freezing temps. I bought the audi strickly for all weather esp in the winter months.

The more you mod a car the more the problem will show up quicker. I had a B5 on stage II and eventhough I ran well, it gave a few issues that I didnt want to deal with.

After owning the V8 almost a year now, I can surely say that I am more confident to take this car everywhere and everytime in any weather.

Overall, I think I made the right choice of switching. I am not ruling out the 2.7TT but if you are like me that needs a more car that you dont want to worry much then go with the V8.

I might look for a B5 S4 again in the near future so I can have a beast and a super beast in my garage

[AB18]

I would trade my Stage 3 B5 A4 anyday for a m3. IMO i think the b5 style is more aggressive looking, alot of b6s remind me of jelly beans, but i think they still look good.

[EvilllEmpirE]

Originally posted by AB18
IMO i think the b5 style is more aggressive looking, alot of b6s remind me of jelly beans, but i think they still look good.

"Jellybeans"... Never heard of that.....but I like it

[Boris]

Originally posted by quicksilver_S
Just to get back on topic... Here are my 2 cent on this.

I originally had the B5 S4 and opt for the B6 S4 after thinking about it long and hard. it was a tough choice to make.


Overall, I think I made the right choice of switching. I am not ruling out the 2.7TT but if you are like me that needs a more car that you dont want to worry much then go with the V8.

I liked your analysis- I too own a b6 s4 nogaro, but wish it had a turbo, can you imagine how bad bad bad the car would be if it was engineered with a single turbo? The grunt of a v8 with the boost of a turbo? I know its silly to dream so excuse me- but I too feel as you, and am thinking of getting a b5 when possible (s4)

My only impression however of the B5 s4 is that it seems a bit brittle, under stress...
tell me if thats true- brittle meaning it breaks easy- I am used to certain asian cars, which do remarkably well, depending on the platform, under the stress of higher horse and torq

regardless i like the all red gauges and seats...and sort of subtle styling of the b5, and in mexico city think it will somewhat inconspicuous with the badges off.

[s4awdblue]

ive had both an m3 and now b7 s4. the m3 was way over tuned, and even though it was badass, the days when you wanted to just chill you always felt like you were racing the car next you cause it was so peppy and jumpy. on the other hand the s4 is way more relaxed, easier to drive and when you get on it , you are still hauling ass...
so my opnion about that: i rather have the v8 than a tuned modded out 6 cyclinder turbo, if you want a weekend car or a sleeper to trash corvettes and mustangs get the twin turbo and mod it out

[twinsnailsS4]

Originally posted by Boris

My only impression however of the B5 s4 is that it seems a bit brittle, under stress...
tell me if thats true- brittle meaning it breaks easy- I am used to certain asian cars, which do remarkably well, depending on the platform, under the stress of higher horse and torq

I don't think the B5 S4 was brittle or easy to break, at least not more so than other cars, and definitely not as delicate as the FD I had before it. If you take care of the car and treat it properly (e.g., oil changes, proper warm up/cool down), chances are you will be okay. I had my B5 for 50k+ miles and nothing major went wrong, except for things that I directly facilitated like the clutch wear (too many clutch drops) or the TBB/dv failure after chipping, which were easy fixes.

My main concern, and the reason I traded mine in, were the potential repair costs...the cars are expensive to maintain/repair like most Euros. Since my CPO warranty was up, I couldn't afford the anticipated (and unanticipated) costs of owning such a car with high miles at this point. I agree with Quicksilver...if you have the ability and/or resources (such as a CPO warranty) to get one, the B5 is a damn good car and unique in all it offers (like our cars). Of course, realistically speaking, it will never be an Accord or Camry in terms of reliability, and it would be unfair IMO to expect that level of reliability given the nature of the respective engines and cars.

[Boris]

i sold my b6 and bought a b5 s4, hyrbid turbos going on soon, everyone convert before its too late, the b6 /7 s4 is doomed for eternal slowness

[enigma1406]

i sold my b6 and bought a b5 s4, hyrbid turbos going on soon, everyone convert before its too late, the b6 /7 s4 is doomed for eternal slowness

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't know that until I read your post.

[shifty711]

I'd like to see that when it happens
PYIU on these boards dynoed at 268 whp on AWE's mustang Dyno....and his mods include: Milltek downpipes, Dahlback non res exhaust, Revo flash, drop in filter He just put in Schrick Cams and plans to Dyno on friday at AWE again...looking for 300 whp. Of course.....you could go to a Dynojet that measure "my little happy ponies" and get close to 300 whp.....but that's just an optimistic number from an optimistic Dyno

^
From my week of ownership of this car I have found that the aftermarker is not so hot and that getting 20whp is a miracle with the basic bolt-ons.

Can you post a link of where to get cams, and possibly other goodies asside from intake exhaust chip mods.

[b6onboost]

If you like to wrench, mod, and get a good bang for the buck...2.7TT.

If you want a newer, nicer, simpler car that is quick with minimal effort...4.2 V8.

They are both different. Which one is better depends on your main goal, and what you can afford. I love the mod friendly nature of turbo motors...but the only reason I'd get a B5 S4 would be pure performance...because I think the newer S4s do basically everything else better.

[B18b1ex]

i sold my b6 and bought a b5 s4, hyrbid turbos going on soon, everyone convert before its too late, the b6 /7 s4 is doomed for eternal slowness

And you get ready for that never ending repair bill. hybrids? I had those on my b5 s4 two times good luck. I'll take your idea of slow, because unless you go stage 3 the the b5 isn't any faster. Sorry.

[GQ//S4]

And you get ready for that never ending repair bill. hybrids? I had those on my b5 s4 two times good luck. I'll take your idea of slow, because unless you go stage 3 the the b5 isn't any faster. Sorry.

Stg 2 b5 s's will take the b6/b7.

My next car will probably be the b6, because I love how they look and I love the sound, just not wild about getting even worse gas mileage than I am now.

[shifty711]

Stg 2 b5 s's will take the b6/b7.

My next car will probably be the b6, because I love how they look and I love the sound, just not wild about getting even worse gas mileage than I am now.

I feel you,

Not only did I buy a slower car when i got the S4, but I got a gas guzzler.
I went from 23 mpg to 17.

Other than that, I am happy with the car.

[toaster]

uhh...wasn't this thread about the B5 vs B6/7?

lol, this thread went WAY off topic when, once again, everyone got defensive about the only cars they could afford.

[GQ//S4]

lol, this thread went WAY off topic when, once again, everyone got defensive about the only cars they could afford.

What are you talking about, most of this is B6/b7 guys talking about why their cars are better than e46 m3's....... then it was meant to be v8 vs v6tt, which if you have the v8 you can prob afford the tt, and most of us that have the v6tt can afford the v8, so I don't really follow your illegitimate argument.