Building the bottom end

[i3oricua]

So I've gone big turbo and the tuner doesn't want to push the engine hard enough for a full tune due to it blowing a lot of smoke (oil burning) and low compression on cylinder 2 (140 psi).

I've decided I'm going to build the bottom end since the problem is likely the piston rings, might as well build it and push it harder, and I have a few questions about the process. I've purchased forged rods and J.E. 8.5.1 pistons so those will go in. I know aluthman has done this a bunch of times and is probably doing it now but I don't want to highjack his build thread so if anyone else or him can answer some questions I'd appreciate it. I will have access to a lift, engine picker, tools, engine stand but some questions I have are:

a. Pulling the engine - what is the typical time frame for pulling it? Hours? Days?

b. Ripping the head off - I plan on replacing the main studs but what else should I replace? Headgasket? Is there a gasket set I should purchase?

c. I'm considering buying a short block I've been eyeballing that way I can see any problems ahead of time and prep it before I pull the engine and hopefully its a quick swap over - Thoughts?

d. Is there a recommended DIY out there for the engine pull or just stick to the shop manual (Bentley?)

e. Should I pop the 1.8T oil pump in while I'm in there and if so is this a specialized job? I've looked at the DIY and it seems intimidating so I'd like the opinion of someone who's done it.

I am very mechanically capable and very comfortable in an engine I've just never done anything of this size but I am going to complete this very soon so but am gathering as much info as I can.

Thanks everyone!

[canadianA4B7]

Pulling engine took me 6 hours alone no help first time under this hood. I took my time an labelled all my wires and all junk to remember later.

Head replace all the bolts you can, mine is all arp bolts and studs, can't tell you how much it cost me it wasn't cheap. But they say they are good for ever and shudnt need replacing. But we all know shit can go bad and need replacing sometimes. Most of the gaskets kits out there are either "complete" or "incomplete" I think last time I looked a complete full engine kit was $229 usd. Everything from head gasket to rear main seal exhaust manifold and all that was included. (An after thought and suggested from another was to remove the head completely b4 yanking motor. My guess

Short block may make things easier. Having the spare parts is always good way to go at it. Especially if first time.

I used no manual, no book, nothing, I just took my time and kind of did it the same way I'd pull any engine. Drain fluids, remove wiring, label shit, accessories remove, intake, turbo, then for the last bits, I left engine mounts together got as much of the engine unbolted from trans, hooked cherry picker to motor, in bolted and removed engine mounts, then let motor down a bit to reach the upper bolt on trans to motor, set trans onto something so it's stationary, then wiggle the 4 banger out.

I'm a fan of the 1.8T pump conversion, others not so much. It's in my plans to add an oil accumulator to the mocal return line on my setup. This way idle pressure will have a bit of a helper. My idle rpm is 820 rpm now will be a bit higher this summer just in case (added cam, intake and new turbo I want to gaurantee ample pressure) but I had no issues last year with my Complete 1.8T oil conversion. Had machine shop do this work. Easier I thought for a pro to do, rather then a Joe to do.

[aluthman]

a. I would say between 4-6 hours for one person is reasonable.

b. Your terminology is a bit off here as main studs refer to the studs holding the main caps that house the main crankshaft bearings. Definitely replace the headbolts though, as they are one time use. If you opt to get ARP head studs, these are reuseable. Headgaskets are also one time use. Since you are pulling the head, there will not be an easier time to replace the cam chain and tensioner. Do a carbon clean while you're at it and your back will thank you.

c. This will for sure speed up the process and minimize downtime on the car, but it is not necessary.

d. -remove bumper
-drain coolant
-unbolt evaporator from core support and lay on ground (do not disconnect a/c lines)
-disconnect/remove IC piping
-remove core support
-unbolt ac compressor and swing it and evaporator to passenger side of car out of the way
-remove turbo
-remove intake manifold
-disconnect all connectors (don't forget oil pressure sensor and knock sensors)
-disconnect heater core hose behind head
-unbolt engine mounts
-remove bellhousing bolts
-pull engine
*alternatively, you can pull the head off the block before pulling the engine to get easier access to the bellhousing bolts, but this is not required*

e. I'm not a fan of the 1.8T oil system conversion because the results seem to be all over the place. Most people seem to have some sort of pressure issue afterwards, but some people have no issues. It doesn't seem to matter how the conversion is done and what pieces are used. If you are looking for reliability, I would recommend just disabling the balance shafts in the 2.0 pump.

If you have any other questions, just let me know. I'm going to be building my new engine soon, so I can probably get pictures if I don't already have some.

[i3oricua]

Thanks for the reply guys. Please keep any suggestions you have coming. I'll be picking up the block Thursday hopefully and then I'll have to figure out a day or two I can take off of work and do all the work.

I'll have to to look up the balance shaft disable. I vaguely remember reading about it being done but never the process.

I already have the cam chain and tensioner along with the necessary tools for it so I will definitely knock that out.

I've ordered a set of gaskets which should be in soon and head bolts. Just gonna do stock replacements. I've read several threads where no one had any issues and I don't plan on pushing crazy levels of power. I don't know. I still have time and might order the ARP ones tonight anyways.


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[aluthman]

I've actually saved money by using the arp studs with as many times as my shit has been apart. Hopefully you have better luck than me.

[vce1232000]

I've actually saved money by using the arp studs with as many times as my shit has been apart. Hopefully you have better luck than me.

x2 with Adam. If you go to the extreme to extract as much as you can or close to it. You will save $$$$ with re- hardware. Simple bolt ons with KO4 or less imo not needed. Imo arp studs are stronger then bolts. There is no stretch factor involved

[i3oricua]

x2 with Adam. If you go to the extreme to extract as much as you can or close to it. You will save $$$$ with re- hardware. Simple bolt ons with KO4 or less imo not needed. Imo arp studs are stronger then bolts. There is no stretch factor involved

So I've decided to buy the ARP bolts. Hopefully I have all my parts my mid next week and can assemble everything and have it ready for a quick swap. I figure I can sell my old block if it isn't damaged for cheap and recoup a little bit of what I spent. At the least maybe recoup the cost of the new-ish block.

[i3oricua]

So I got the short block and the rods came in. Expect the other parts to arrive in the next two or three days.



In other news I got the car back from the tuner and they tuned it only to 10psi. It pulls hard but it starts bucking at partial throttle and throws an under boost P0899 code. Additionally after a few miles of driving it throws a P0606 code which sends the car into limo mode. I can clear the codes and keep driving but they reappear after driving for a while.

I've got a hold of the tuner and he's gonna call me back but anyone have any thoughts?

The diverter valve is the forge diverter valve. I'll find a link and post which one I have and it's brand spanking new. I don't think that's the culprit but I'm tempted to get a stock rev D and stick it in to see if solves three problem.


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[canadianA4B7]

Air leak? Pcv system, or one of the lines/clamps lose??

[i3oricua]

I checked all the hoses. I'll check again in a little bit since the engine is cold but they did a smoke test and patched all the leaks supposedly. Doesn't mean there's not any new ones but I'll have to check again. I'm running a catch can do I don't think it's the PCV. Could be wrong.


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[canadianA4B7]

Pcv is tricky, post a pic and make note of the way your lines are connected. Everything essentially needs to be pulled out of engine, either to your tip pipe or to exhaust. Needs a vacuum pulling things away for motor. Easiest way I think of it.

[i3oricua]

Pcv is tricky, post a pic and make note of the way your lines are connected. Everything essentially needs to be pulled out of engine, either to your tip pipe or to exhaust. Needs a vacuum pulling things away for motor. Easiest way I think of it.

I don't quite understand what you mean. But here's a pic of the engine bay and the associated lines.




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[Okedokey]

How does that coolant line fair so close to the turbo? Wouldn't it be better to run it more direct away from the turbo or at least sheild it?

[dalmation53]

How does that coolant line fair so close to the turbo? Wouldn't it be better to run it more direct away from the turbo or at least sheild it?

damn i know is literally touching it too..

[i3oricua]

How does that coolant line fair so close to the turbo? Wouldn't it be better to run it more direct away from the turbo or at least sheild it?

I don't have any problems with it. The line is meant for that heat. If it becomes a problem then I'll know after some really hard long runs.


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[pezgoon]

I don't have any problems with it. The line is meant for that heat. If it becomes a problem then I'll know after some really hard long runs.


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Hmmm no

Rubber/plastic like that is not designed to survive 1k degrees lol


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[i3oricua]

Got the JE pistons in today. Waiting on the studs but I'll start cleaning the block this week and see if I can install the pistons in the garage. The goal is to have at least that much done before I start dismantling the engine. I think I'm gonna take next Thursday and Friday off to do the work. Might need Saturday as well.

Any special tips for installing pistons? I'll be doing some reading and YouTube university prior to doing anything.




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[Solarsuplex]

What about new main bearings?

Dropping the block off for blasting?

Scarring the cylinder walls?

Use this time to clean off your oil pick up and get any shit out of the pan. While the pump is off you can use air pressure to blow through all the ports on the pump just to get ANYTHING that might be there out.

Also do you plan to use the stock head with this build?

[i3oricua]

What about new main bearings?

Dropping the block off for blasting?

Scarring the cylinder walls?

Use this time to clean off your oil pick up and get any shit out of the pan. While the pump is off you can use air pressure to blow through all the ports on the pump just to get ANYTHING that might be there out.

Also do you plan to use the stock head with this build?

I don't plan on pulling the crank out so i don't believe there's a need for bearings.

I'll check the walls when I get the old pistons out out. Regardless I'll give them a good hone.

I'll have to see the best way to blow it out. Never heard of doing that before but thanks for the advice.

Stock head will stay the same. I'll use ARP studs to mate it back to the block.


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[i3oricua]

I don't plan on pulling the crank out so i don't believe there's a need for bearings.

I'll check the walls when I get the old pistons out out. Regardless I'll give them a good hone.

I'll have to see the best way to blow it out. Never heard of doing that before but thanks for the advice.

Stock head will stay the same. I'll use ARP studs to mate it back to the block.


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[Solarsuplex]

I'd suggest bearings just since you're in there. Also removing the crank makes the block that much easier to clean.


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[i3oricua]

I'd suggest bearings just since you're in there. Also removing the crank makes the block that much easier to clean.


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I see your point with but wouldn't that require me to get the crank balanced?


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[Solarsuplex]

I see your point with but wouldn't that require me to get the crank balanced?


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That's a question for somebody that has pulled the crank. Haha. Farthest I've gone is head gasket and replacing oil pump.


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[canadianA4B7]

I believe your pcv system is incomplete? Where is your system pulling vacuum from? The filter should not be there, put a nipple on your turbo inlet pipe and attach where your tiny filter is to the turbo inlet pipe. Mis conception on these cars about the pcv is huge, even companies are selling incomplete catch can/pcv setups.

It needs to be sucked out of the engine to "properly work" so either draw it to the intake pipe or the exhaust with a Venturi valve (I don't know if that's spelt right). Yours does not look complete, yes it will function but correctly I don't believe so.

[canadianA4B7]

How does that coolant line fair so close to the turbo? Wouldn't it be better to run it more direct away from the turbo or at least sheild it?

On big turbos guys there is a better route to set up coolant lines, which I've recently come to figure out. The cross hose from drivers side of car should go to the inner most port on the turbo (between turbo and block), then a piece made from passengers port down below turbo to the block and attach. With a few fittings and pieces from hydraulics shop it's pretty easy to do. This one is done "the old fashion way" been done for years. But EFR and Borg Warner do specify a high and low side to be used. Even though retailers say not necessary I've adapted the system to meet BW specs.

[i3oricua]

I believe your pcv system is incomplete? Where is your system pulling vacuum from? The filter should not be there, put a nipple on your turbo inlet pipe and attach where your tiny filter is to the turbo inlet pipe. Mis conception on these cars about the pcv is huge, even companies are selling incomplete catch can/pcv setups.

It needs to be sucked out of the engine to "properly work" so either draw it to the intake pipe or the exhaust with a Venturi valve (I don't know if that's spelt right). Yours does not look complete, yes it will function but correctly I don't believe so.

I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying and had I been able to talk to the guy that built that pipe prior to finishing I would have asked for that exactly so I could feed those lines to the intake. I may have to drill and tap into that intake on my own. Should be fairly easy.


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[i3oricua]

On big turbos guys there is a better route to set up coolant lines, which I've recently come to figure out. The cross hose from drivers side of car should go to the inner most port on the turbo (between turbo and block), then a piece made from passengers port down below turbo to the block and attach. With a few fittings and pieces from hydraulics shop it's pretty easy to do. This one is done "the old fashion way" been done for years. But EFR and Borg Warner do specify a high and low side to be used. Even though retailers say not necessary I've adapted the system to meet BW specs.

The picture is deceiving. I can easily stick a closed fiat underneath that line. Sure it will get hot still but I'm not really worried about it.


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[blitz2190]

I see your point with but wouldn't that require me to get the crank balanced?


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your putting rods and pistons in, so it should be balanced regardless but no strictly pulling the crank does not mean it needs to be balanced. It may run well without a balance but also has the same odds of causing very nasty premature wear on all the parts and could cause some bad vibrations to as far as ripping itself apart depending on how much the weight difference is in the big and small ends of the new rods (a few grams can be hundreds of pounds of force once its rotating), I would recommend balancing the rotating assembly as your doing pistons as well and its very cheap compared to doing it all again.

[canadianA4B7]

The picture is deceiving. I can easily stick a closed fiat underneath that line. Sure it will get hot still but I'm not really worried about it.


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I agree it may get hot, mine is now very clear of heat. And in future I plan to use some of the stuff in link below. Just around the turbo lines.

http://www.improvedracing.com/heat-s...eve-p-562.html

[dwinters14]

your putting rods and pistons in, so it should be balanced regardless but no strictly pulling the crank does not mean it needs to be balanced. It may run well without a balance but also has the same odds of causing very nasty premature wear on all the parts and could cause some bad vibrations to as far as ripping itself apart depending on how much the weight difference is in the big and small ends of the new rods (a few grams can be hundreds of pounds of force once its rotating), I would recommend balancing the rotating assembly as your doing pistons as well and its very cheap compared to doing it all again.

+1

[canadianA4B7]

your putting rods and pistons in, so it should be balanced regardless but no strictly pulling the crank does not mean it needs to be balanced. It may run well without a balance but also has the same odds of causing very nasty premature wear on all the parts and could cause some bad vibrations to as far as ripping itself apart depending on how much the weight difference is in the big and small ends of the new rods (a few grams can be hundreds of pounds of force once its rotating), I would recommend balancing the rotating assembly as your doing pistons as well and its very cheap compared to doing it all again.

Highly suggested. I had this done on complete rotating assembly, clutch system too.

[i3oricua]

Highly suggested. I had this done on complete rotating assembly, clutch system too.

I'll call around and check prices. Is this a mechanic doable job or like a specialty shop? You'll have to excuse my ignorance but this is the deepest I've gotten into an engine so I'm reading as much as I can in a hurry.

I'm sure someone wants to jump in and say I have no business doing this if I have questions but I don't operate on the scared side of things. I'll figure it out or break the car trying.

In other news I removed the old pistons from the spare block I bought. Yup, you're seeing that correctly. I don't have an engine stand.



To my untrained eyes the walls look to be in good condition. I'm gonna try to get it on a stand and clean it up but if not I'm gonna at the very least use my air compressor and a steel brush wheel to get the oil pan gasket residue and other stuff off.

Old pistons.




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[dwinters14]

Balancing the assembly makes sure there isn't any excess vibration caused by having parts that don't weigh the same/aren't mated properly together. This prevents excessive wear and internal damage. When they balance the rotating assembly, they weigh the rods (crank and pin side) then match them all within 1 gram of weight as well as the rings, and piston heads. Then they attach them to the crank and spin it to find out where counter weights need to be added or removed.

Honestly, if you want your engine to last and you're putting in aftermarket parts that wont be within the OEM tolerances I would absolutely get the engine balanced. It also helps having your flywheel and crank dampener that will be used to get it as perfect as possible.

Just my .02. I'm sure someone more experienced can give their spin on it as well.

[i3oricua]

Balancing the assembly makes sure there isn't any excess vibration caused by having parts that don't weigh the same/aren't mated properly together. This prevents excessive wear and internal damage. When they balance the rotating assembly, they weigh the rods (crank and pin side) then match them all within 1 gram of weight as well as the rings, and piston heads. Then they attach them to the crank and spin it to find out where counter weights need to be added or removed.

Honestly, if you want your engine to last and you're putting in aftermarket parts that wont be within the OEM tolerances I would absolutely get the engine balanced. It also helps having your flywheel and crank dampener that will be used to get it as perfect as possible.

Just my .02. I'm sure someone more experienced can give their spin on it as well.

I appreciate your advice. I'm open to all of it.

Please excuse if I come off short on any responses. Wife and I are in the middle of prepping the house for the market this week and in the meantime I've dug myself into this mess of a rebuild so I'm being cheap and trying to cut corners probably in areas I shouldn't be.

Thanks again everyone.


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[Denio24]

I appreciate your advice. I'm open to all of it.

Please excuse if I come off short on any responses. Wife and I are in the middle of prepping the house for the market this week and in the meantime I've dug myself into this mess of a rebuild so I'm being cheap and trying to cut corners probably in areas I shouldn't be.

Thanks again everyone.


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Word of advice: dont cut corners on an engine build. Take all the time you need to do it, research everything, and get quality parts if you want an engine that lasts.

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[blitz2190]

I'll call around and check prices. Is this a mechanic doable job or like a specialty shop? You'll have to excuse my ignorance but this is the deepest I've gotten into an engine so I'm reading as much as I can in a hurry.

I'm sure someone wants to jump in and say I have no business doing this if I have questions but I don't operate on the scared side of things. I'll figure it out or break the car trying.

In other news I removed the old pistons from the spare block I bought. Yup, you're seeing that correctly. I don't have an engine stand.


To my untrained eyes the walls look to be in good condition. I'm gonna try to get it on a stand and clean it up but if not I'm gonna at the very least use my air compressor and a steel brush wheel to get the oil pan gasket residue and other stuff off.

Old pistons.



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putting the engine together is perfectly doable on an engine stand, but the machine work and balancing will need to be done by a engine machine shop that has very expensive equipment. If you don't feel like doing a ton of scrubing you can also opt for them to clean everything. I spent day hand scrubbing everything after the machine work and it was a pain in the ass. Building an engine for the first time takes a lot of time, patience, and research.

[canadianA4B7]

Balancing, boring, cleaning (port/polish) usually all done by a shop.

No worries on asking questions, it's the best way to learn.

And there will be some tools you'll need to complete this task at home. You'll find this as you go will become a pain in the arse. But you'll be prepared for the future when you do this again.

[i3oricua]

Called around a few shops today and I found only one or two that will balance the crank and hone. I'm gonna have to go by and talk to them a little more. I started reading on honing but I'm exhausted and started falling asleep. Just trying to learn a little more about the process. Def not something I'm gonna do on my own.


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[dwinters14]

Called around a few shops today and I found only one or two that will balance the crank and hone. I'm gonna have to go by and talk to them a little more. I started reading on honing but I'm exhausted and started falling asleep. Just trying to learn a little more about the process. Def not something I'm gonna do on my own.


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Good idea. Take the time and build it right so it lasts!

[i3oricua]

Got these in today.

Crappy part is I wont be able to swap the bottom end out for a few months. I'm shipping the car to England next week as part of my move. I still have the extra bottom end here so I need to take the crank off and take it over to a machine shop to have it all balanced and possibly put together. Goal for that is Monday but that also depends on the turn around time after I speak to the place on Monday. I might shoot for tomorrow if I can get the crank off tonight. Just a few bolts so I should be able to knock it out.


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