Post Timing Chain/ Tensioner Job - Problems

[AWellman]

Hello all,

Having issues, beyond frustrated and have very little spare time so this car has been sucking every bit of spare time i get. Ill lay out the situation and hope someone can chime in and help.

2009 A4 - 98,000 Miles.

The Beginning- Been noticing a slight bit more ticking lately but thought nothing of it except that this engine makes more a lawn mower noise than i would like. Went to dinner and when i came out the car wouldnt start with one touch to the button so i had to hold the button, and the idle was awful. I drove home, while driving the car was smooth no signs of a problem, but if i was to stop the idle would be insanely bad. Got the car home and checked the codes. P0016. so i push the car to the work area of my driveway and let her sit until i got the parts to do the job.

The Repair- I followed the guides found on this forum from "Allowncer" and few others to get the job done correctly. After first inspection the chain was only off 2 links. I did the repair making sure every thing was followed to a T. I only replaced Tensioner, Chain, Cover, Crank Pulley.

The Confusing Part- So i have the car in "Service Mode", i used to own a b5 s4 so i am tooo familiar with service mode on these audis, but in service mode i decided to start the car after the job before buttoning it all up. I start the car by holding the button (i havent cleared codes yet), and the car ran sooooo good. almost silent valvetrain it was spectacular. with a huge smile i bolted the car back together clear the codes now that im clean enough to go grab my computer and start the car ready for a test drive......... and suddenly when i start the car it has the same idle as before. I read the codes and i get P0016 again. i refuse to read that so i clear it and start it again. read codes P0016, misfires and low fuel pressure. clear, start and read codes again, P0016, misfires, high fuel pressure. NOOOOOO. this cant be happening.

so this is where i need help.....

already on my list:
recheck timing from upper cover - i have done this half way so far maybe only 5-6 revolutions of the crank but i landed on a spot where the tick marks are a little off but the chain marks (in my case gold links) are both 2 links to the right of both cam sprockets - i read this is good? and that i just need to keep revolving the crank until i fall on the sweet spot?

please any help would be great. and let me know if this is hard to read i wrote it super fast.

[van462]

Since you have the upper timing cover off. Verify the spring loaded center of the intake cam cycles smoothly. This is where the solenoid presses to change the intake timing advance. The sensor used to verify can timing is also on the intake cam.

[AWellman]

This is where my timing is.

[AWellman]

So i started the car after realizing my timing seems fine, the car ran good no hiccups and idled like a champ. turned it off. when to turn on again and i had to hold button this time and back to the rough idle.... why would it run fine one time and then all over the place after that... should i look into replacing Cam Position Sensor and Crank Position Sensors?

[A4x]

Don't you think it's possible that when you first noticed the problem, your chain already had too much slack and the valves crashed into the pistons? Have you had the head off to inspect for this?

[AWellman]

Don't you think it's possible that when you first noticed the problem, your chain already had too much slack and the valves crashed into the pistons? Have you had the head off to inspect for this?

Now would it make sense that it can start and run fine with any damage to the valves? since it runs fine before code is tripped.

[forcefed7]

Don't you think it's possible that when you first noticed the problem, your chain already had too much slack and the valves crashed into the pistons? Have you had the head off to inspect for this?

Not if the car is cycling between running fine, then shut it off, start it again and misfiring.
If pistons and valves "hi-fived" it would run poorly 100% of the time.

[lettuce]

What was different when your car was started in service mode? Was your MAF sensor plugged in? Intake can solenoid plugged in? First I'd try to recreate those conditions without actually putting it back into service position, and then I'd do a compression test to make sure you don't have any bent valves.

[AWellman]

What was different when your car was started in service mode? Was your MAF sensor plugged in? Intake can solenoid plugged in? First I'd try to recreate those conditions without actually putting it back into service position, and then I'd do a compression test to make sure you don't have any bent valves.

i believe i even hooked back up the coolant hoses before starting. i just light bolting the lock carrier back in place.

only difference at that time was that the code was still on. now the car only acts up when the code is on.... and ONLY AT IDLE. if i give the car slight bit of throttle its purrs great.

[Homer_J]

I'm not much help, just brainstorming.

-Do we know that the timing is right with just the 2 cam markings? The 3rd gold marking would have to be in proper position down on the lower crank sprocket as well, but we can't see that.

-As mentioned by lettuce, you're running it with the intake cam solenoid all hooked up right?

-My problem was a little similar, and a new tensioner and chain fixed mine. I wonder if a stretched out chain could cause this? Edit: nevermind, I see you replaced the chain.

-Some weird idles for me in the past have been related to some sort of vacuum leak, oil cap being off/loose etc but that doesn't explain the P0016 code or the fact that it's intermittent.

[AWellman]

I do know the crank chain link was in the correct location before i out the lower cover back on and according to allowencer it is almost impossible for the crank pulley to skip a tooth due to the angle of the guides. so i would safely assume it is at correct location.

the intake cam solenoid is all hooked up and the valve that bolts to the cam sprocket was torqued to the correct specification (30Nm).

If a vacuum leak i would venture to say its only an issue when in vacuum and not boost.

here are my questions to anyone that would know.

-what controls the cam timing at idle? why would idle be the only issue?
-would damage to valves allow the engine to run smooth ever like in my intermittent case?

ill perform a boost leak test to confirm any boost leaks.

[AWellman]

just be sure can you give me part number of solenoid you are talking about??

[AWellman]

Okay so could this be related to the intake cam adjustment valve or magnetic solenoid?

[o1turbo30v]

From Ross-Tech:

16400/P0016/000022
Contents

1 16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
1.1 Possible Symptoms
1.2 Possible Causes
1.3 Possible Solutions
1.4 Special Notes

16400/P0016/000022 - Bank 1: Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incorrect Correlation
Possible Symptoms

Malfunction Indicator Light (MIL) ON

Possible Causes

Timing Issue
Camshaft Adjuster

Possible Solutions

Check Setting of Timing Belt
Check Timing of Intake/Exhaust Cams
Check Cam Adjusters as per Repair Manual

Special Notes

North American Market (NAR) specific notes:
When found in 2009 Audi A4, A5 or Q5 with 3.2FSI AVE Engines, please see TSB 15-09-04.
When found in 2008 and newer VW 2.0T engine with a timing chain (example; CCTA and CBFA), please see:
TT 01-15-08 for information about the intake camshaft, adjuster bridge and spool valve.
TSB 15-12-01 or TPI 2028302 for no-start timing chain related problems.
Audi Volkswagen - 2.0L Chain Drive - P0016 Cam/Crank correlation check

General notes:
On engines with chain driven intake camshaft(s), but belt driven exhaust camshaft(s), verify the number of chain roller links between the intake and exhaust camshafts is correct.

http://wiki.ross-tech.com/wiki/index...0/P0016/000022

[AWellman]

Anyone know the procedure to check the adjusters?

[Homer_J]

just be sure can you give me part number of solenoid you are talking about??

It sounds like we're thinking of the same part. The N205 valve, I think this is it: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-genuine-.../06l109259akt/

Wish I had more ideas, sorry. Seems like more info is needed. It can get expensive throwing parts at the problem, I almost bought a new crank and cam position sensors, and a new adjuster valve when my car wasn't running right, now I'm glad I didn't. It's probably rare for them to fail or we'd hear about it more.

[AWellman]

i may have over torque the cam adjuster valve that sits in front of the magnetic solenoid at first.. i say someone else with this problem with cold starts on vwvortex...

i need to figure out how to test these

[van462]

If you can cycle the spring loaded plunger inside the cam bridge retainer (the left hand threaded part) then likely it is fine. The solenoid pushed this same plunger and that allows oil pressure to change intake valve timing. I do not know what position the ecu commands the solenoid to during start. I may go unplug mine and see if it generates a code or not.

[lettuce]

If you can cycle the spring loaded plunger inside the cam bridge retainer (the left hand threaded part) then likely it is fine. The solenoid pushed this same plunger and that allows oil pressure to change intake valve timing. I do not know what position the ecu commands the solenoid to during start. I may go unplug mine and see if it generates a code or not.

You'll probably get a P052A code if you do that. 'Cold Start "A" Camshaft Position Timing Over-Advanced Bank 1'. This is the code I got on initial startup after doing some valvatrain work which was due to enough oil draining out of the immediate area to prevent it from having enough pressure to do its thing right away.

[van462]

You'll probably get a P052A code if you do that. 'Cold Start "A" Camshaft Position Timing Over-Advanced Bank 1'. This is the code I got on initial startup after doing some valvatrain work which was due to enough oil draining out of the immediate area to prevent it from having enough pressure to do its thing right away.

Good to know. I may have avoided it as I gave my engine a few cranks with the spark plugs removed to prime the oil system. I figured if something did go wrong it would have full combustion power behind it.

[AWellman]

So if my gold marks on my chain line up with the marks on the cams and crank that would mean it's in time right? Apparent intake cam is out of time since I'm throwing p0088 as well as p0016. Could this be from the control valve and solenoid and not the chain?

[van462]

The fuel pump is driven off the intake cam. The ECU controls fuel pressure by controlling fuel entry into the high pressure pump based off its rotating position. If the cam timing is off it would make sense the HPFP timing could be off as well. It would be worth pulling the cam sensor and wiping it clean.
The only other likely was your chain timing would be off is if the lower timing gear splines between the gear and crankshaft are out of place. It can slip out of place a notch and the crank bolt has enough clamping force to sort of make it all smash together and work. But with the intermittited runs of it doing well and then not the N205 solenoid sounds suspect.

[AWellman]

N205 Is for the VVL on the exhaust cam not the intake came. Right?

[A4 Centaur]

^But wouldn't a code be thrown for a solenoid in that condition?

[AWellman]

thats what im sayin, cuz i had to replace a n205 before.. but thats exhuast side and that cam uses variable valve lift and intake uses varible valve timing with the help of the.. INA valve (Cam Adjustment Valve) and the Magnetic Solenoid.

anyone know how to test the intake side valve and solenoid to ensure they are working correctly.. maybe i can use vcds to measure timing requested vs timing actual? can someone guide me on how to do this?

[AWellman]

Bump: Have a new INA valve arriving today.. see if this fixes the p0016 code once and for all... doubt it but whatever.

[AWellman]

Still struggling with this. i checked timing multiple times and everything seems fine. i started the car again in service posisiton multiple times and ran great even when idling for a while. put it back together to get the errors again.

correlation error
fuel preasure too high error

def intake cam problem. losing faith.

please help.

is there a way to measure values with vag com to get more of an idea what could be wrong.

[Hunter2011]

Just swap in a b8.5 engine

Sent from my SM-G920V using Audizine mobile app

[A4 Centaur]

I would suggest that the timing is not on. However, with no seeing or hearing the engine that is what the problem sounds like. The folks at Bluewater mentioned something about the correct timing position and rotating "114" times to get it back to where you would see the marks in the correct spot, or something like that. Also, I think the OP who did the chain earlier this month mentioned this as well.

Shoot, I am thinking about having the dealer do this now. It's got me a little gun-shy.

I hope you can figure this out!!

[AWellman]

So i decided to just pull all the chains off and start from the crank make sure everything is timed. Maybe somthing i didnt touch moved? Who knows.

[A4 Centaur]

Best of luck man! Double check the #1 piston at TDC with a dowel or borescope?

[AWellman]

all fixed :)

[IHave2Turbos]

What was the solution? Your persistance is admirable, share with the forum to retain the knowledge.

[A4 Centaur]

Good to hear!

Did you have issues removing the crank bolt? or did you use a special tool to remove the bolt while holding the dampner in place? I was told that the crank bolt is held on with quite some torque, and you run the risk of moving the position of the crank from TDC when removing or loosening the bolt?

[AWellman]

so the problem was that the main sprocket that connects to all three chains was off by 2 teeth to the crankshaft its self basically moving over everything back 2 teeth in time. When i re did the timing i used a long screw driver in cylinder one to ensure TDC. The main sprocket also has a tick mark that lines up to the middle of a flat spot on the crank. The chains go in their obvious spots on the tick marks and once everything is back together i suggest ensuring TDC then measuring the distance from the middle of the upper guide to the tic mark on the intake cam. should be 2.5" or 62-64mm. once the pulley is on another check to do is also ensure TDC with a screw driver or something long and mark sure that the pulley's tick mark lines up with the tick mark on the timing cover.

!!AS SOON AS YOU TAKE OFF THE PULLEY MAKE SURE YOU THROW THE BOLT BACK IN WITH THE THICK PLASTIC WASHER TO ENSURE THE SPROCKET IN TIGHT AGAINST THE CRANK AT ALL TIMES!!