Audi S5 3.0t runs [email protected] (best trap 124.96mph)

[jran76]

I don't think this is some secret, but the recipe for a 10.x pass with the stock motor and blower has been pretty clear for some time. Again, assuming no crazy weight reductions, drag radials, etc.

--Really good conditions (low-DA and humidity, cool temps, warm track, high baro).
--Maximize boost while keeping IAT's low (i.e. 21-22 psi and 55-65C IAT's max)
--A lot of timing (again, 25+ degrees)

Add in a few small things (in Loe's case, good working HFC and an intake), a good driver, and a little luck and it's doable. Getting the above things to consistently go right is the hard part. Loe and Ron have both been tinkering with it for a year, and it just now all came together for Loe.

[infinkc]

Awesome loe !

[Loe]

thanks all I was definitely excited, more so that I was so close to the same time two times after that. The only thing I could have hoped for was crossing that 125 mph barrier, but I don't think that will be possible without more power or possibly shorter tires 255/30(?) to land higher in the rev band in 4th gear, or through some miracle drop 50+lbs pounds from the car. The weather was right, and I was very happy to see my car finally run correctly whereas previously we were hit with high humidity low D/A days, too much dragstrip traffic, or hardware failures that prevented me to take advantage of a low humidity day (such my intercooler issues, which knock-on-wood has not re-occured with this current set, partial clogged OEM cats, and so forth).

To answer a few questions:

the cats, they are a metallic design that Crown Motorsports had been planning for a few weeks and the timing was just right to get them installed. They will be releasing details soon on them once testing is completed (clearly they flow very very well though!). I don't recall the brand of cats, but they are a 200 cell metallic matrix, so they are less likely to blow apart.

As for my 179mm crank pulley, it's been better for my climate being at sea-level. ChrisUCF99 is having similarly great times with his UC set-up on pump and a 179mm crank. I still need a real boost gauge, but I will say that the 179mm is IMHO too dependent on really good dense air to max out the MAP sensors, so the performance falls at a greater rate the hotter and less dense the ambient air is. I may step up to a 187-189mm outer ring for that reason this summer as I don't plan on going to the dragstrip, except maybe for a group meeting/event, so I wouldn't have to worry about rising IAT's too much.

One of the side purposes of our last dyno comparo was to see if there was truly a difference between the sizes, but it didn't end up that way with me making 434awhp @ 16.xx psi. I wish we had more blower data for those at 1,000ft / 2,000ft / 3,000ft and so forth with similarly modded vehicles with the only difference being pulley size, hopefully we can gather this more into 2017.

Those who can still enjoy boost weather, definitely try to get out there!

I had a wacky idea that I presented to Evan @ Crown Motorsports on the intake side a few weeks back, we will see if it works once we start fabricating it, hopefully it works...

[jimrobbington]

Loe, i couldn't think of a better person to steal the 10 sec trophy. Congrats man and thanks for being a friendly resource within this community.

X2 very glad Loe got to break the record!

Now, Loe, have you thought about getting the UC and dropping the car off at GIAC for some testing?

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[derek.kritz]

Leo, not many people, or you for that matter mentioning the killer chilller....how many people are running this? I think that this maybe the key to run no??? Keeping the IATS down considerably....what ya think??? Congratulations btw!!!! Very well done....now, who is gonna get a 10.8???


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[S-Fore]

Congrats man!!!! Awesome.

All the new #APR #ultracharger owners be like:



LOLOLOL...

You'd think someone from APR would come in here and give the guy a congrats, regardless. But no. Or maybe now they've been called out, with a side of excuses...

[Loe]

Leo, not many people, or you for that matter mentioning the killer chilller....how many people are running this? I think that this maybe the key to run no??? Keeping the IATS down considerably....what ya think??? Congratulations btw!!!! Very well done....now, who is gonna get a 10.8???


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

I know a few people running it, and at least two more about to have it installed soon. The real advantage it has is super-cooling fluid, which cools the S/C casing when idling (I really don't have to ice my blower in-between runs), as well as lowering IAT's at idle. You can simply do the same with simple idle + bag of ice on your blower + open hood to lower IAT's prior to a run; you definitely want to keep the car idling to cycle fluid through the intercooler. However, in either case, we are still limited by the intercooler cores, they are still simply too small.

As for IAT's itself:
-they started at 28.5*C at the start of my run
-it dropped to 26*C during 1st gear, then rose to 27.5*C at the top of 1st gear
-2nd gear ended at 42.5*C
-3rd gear ended at 60.5*C
-4th gear ended at 65*C @ 6,822 rpm

[bhvrdr]

Leo, not many people, or you for that matter mentioning the killer chilller....how many people are running this? I think that this maybe the key to run no??? Keeping the IATS down considerably....what ya think??? Congratulations btw!!!! Very well done....now, who is gonna get a 10.8???


Sent from my iPhone using Audizine

I think jran put it very well. We all have known we need great running conditions, great track prep, to be able to keep iats low while running 20+psi and 26+ timing. It's just not east to get all that lined up though lol. My iats are right on the edge of pulling power back even in great conditions. If i could keep them 10-20c cooler it would really help. This is prob where a killer chiller or meth would come in. I'd really like to find a more daily driver solution though ala head work, cams or better yet a more efficient blower....of course then we are back to needing custom tuning.

[derek.kritz]

I know a few people running it, and at least two more about to have it installed soon. The real advantage it has is super-cooling fluid, which cools the S/C casing when idling (I really don't have to ice my blower in-between runs), as well as lowering IAT's at idle. You can simply do the same with simple idle + bag of ice on your blower + open hood to lower IAT's prior to a run; you definitely want to keep the car idling to cycle fluid through the intercooler. However, in either case, we are still limited by the intercooler cores, they are still simply too small.

As for IAT's itself:
-they started at 28.5*C at the start of my run
-it dropped to 26*C during 1st gear, then rose to 27.5*C at the top of 1st gear
-2nd gear ended at 42.5*C
-3rd gear ended at 60.5*C
-4th gear ended at 65*C @ 6,822 rpm

Cool. Thanks Loe!!! Very good explanation....
Do you also put ice in your AWE coolant res???

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[Eric_C]

I'm not going to say it's impossible, but with a mod list like that and the stock blower and motor, it takes a lot of timing. On 93, even with meth, it's not possible to run 25-27 degrees (or more). Meth will help a little with the relative octane, but more than anything on this platform is it helps control IAT's. Again, that will help you run more timing, but just not up to race gas/E85 levels. I wouldn't feel great about running more than 21-22 degrees on strait 93 no matter what else I was doing, and that just doesn't equate to these types of times unless you have some other pretty crazy mods (stripped car, drag radials, super lightweight parts, etc.). I don't know, but just my two cents.

I could live with an E85 mix, and not saying anything negative about the people who do it, but it is not a street able solution to run race gas unless you drive 100 miles per week or don't mind $9 a gallon gas with limited to no availability.

I've read here the TB is the bottle neck, hence the UC. Loe is running the same MPH on a stock TB.

Controlling IAT goes a long way to controlling pre-ignition. Running more timing is to get more power out of the same amount of air/fuel.

First question I would have is, how many lb per minute of air can the SC flow? How big is the SC anyways?

[bhvrdr]

I know a few people running it, and at least two more about to have it installed soon. The real advantage it has is super-cooling fluid, which cools the S/C casing when idling (I really don't have to ice my blower in-between runs), as well as lowering IAT's at idle. You can simply do the same with simple idle + bag of ice on your blower + open hood to lower IAT's prior to a run; you definitely want to keep the car idling to cycle fluid through the intercooler. However, in either case, we are still limited by the intercooler cores, they are still simply too small.

As for IAT's itself:
-they started at 28.5*C at the start of my run
-it dropped to 26*C during 1st gear, then rose to 27.5*C at the top of 1st gear
-2nd gear ended at 42.5*C
-3rd gear ended at 60.5*C
-4th gear ended at 65*C @ 6,822 rpm

Fvck that's awesome. I was working hard trying to keep the car moving and ac fans on full blast just to get 48c starting temps. That is awesome man. It's interesting we are ending at the same temps though man. Do u think adding capacity can help you keep them from rising as fast?

[CrownMotorsport]

I think jran put it very well. We all have known we need great running conditions, great track prep, to be able to keep iats low while running 20+psi and 26+ timing. It's just not east to get all that lined up though lol. My iats are right on the edge of pulling power back even in great conditions. If i could keep them 10-20c cooler it would really help. This is prob where a killer chiller or meth would come in. I'd really like to find a more daily driver solution though ala head work, cams or better yet a more efficient blower....of course then we are back to needing custom tuning.

Headwork and cam's as well as meth are not daily driven mods at all tbh. Not to mention the $$$$ that it takes to do any of it with the exception of meth which has to be filled often. Killer chiller works in unison with your factory refrigerant system and cools continuously when the compressor is running. It's a small investment in comparrison and a far better solution to IAT control which = more daily driven power. Coolant temps as low as 57° F after hard driving is awesome !!!

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[S4 00 2.7]

awesome congrats on those times

Loe def has set the bar higher for the UC

this

Congrats man!!!! Awesome.

All the new #APR #ultracharger owners be like:



LOLOLOL...

You'd think someone from APR would come in here and give the guy a congrats, regardless. But no. Or maybe now they've been called out, with a side of excuses...

unfortunately Lol

from my HTC 10

[bhvrdr]

Headwork and cam's as well as meth are not daily driven mods at all tbh. Not to mention the $$$$ that it takes to do any of it with the exception of meth which has to be filled often. Killer chiller works in unison with your factory refrigerant system and cools continuously when the compressor is running. It's a small investment in comparrison and a far better solution to IAT control which = more daily driven power. Coolant temps as low as 57° F after hard driving is awesome !!!

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I definitely agree with you on the meth. I'd lump the killer chiller in there with that too though. I'm surprised Loe's IATs got up to 65c which is no better than mine at the end of a run. Also I couldnt road course the car or i'd blow the engine. The killer chiller is not great at all for repeated back to back wot runs with no idle time to cool it back down.

Im not sure why heads and cams wouldnt be DD. They can be extremely reliable and hold up to the most extreme road course duty if done right. Im not sure on the Audi tax but you can get cams from world recognized manufactures on the LS scene for 500 bucks a cam and even that is considered outrageously high priced to those folks, lol. Head work is shop time. Unfortunately we just dont have a solution yet. A slightly lumpy idle for another 60whp wouldnt bother me. I'd do it before I did headers which makes the car sound absolutely terrible IMO. Its a regret on my LS that i did long tubes actually. But again even super high quality t304 headers were costing me $700 with a lifetime warranty from people like Kooks and Stainless power. Add a few hundred bucks for high flow cats mounted under the car. There's stuff we could be doing IMO. I dont live next to MRC though and purchasing a tuning suite and trying myself would likely end with me broke and with a broken car, lol.

Mike

[Eric_C]

Headwork and cam's as well as meth are not daily driven mods at all tbh. Not to mention the $$$$ that it takes to do any of it with the exception of meth which has to be filled often. Killer chiller works in unison with your factory refrigerant system and cools continuously when the compressor is running. It's a small investment in comparrison and a far better solution to IAT control which = more daily driven power. Coolant temps as low as 57° F after hard driving is awesome !!!

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Do you guys make your own? I ask because searching for that term took me to another site that sells the product, do you guys resell or take the generic kit and adapt it?

Cost is the same as meth from the pricing show. I run A2A IC's on my other car so meth is the only option.

Heads/Cam/Meth done right doesn't take away from DD'ing a car unless the cam makes it un-streetable. I personally am looking to get that kind of power level every day, all the time, without $8 a gallon gas. If that cannot be done then that is the answer I'm looking for.

I don't want to derail the OP's thread. He has put a lot of effort into what he has done. I'm just wondering how much of it could be replicated without the high octane gas and what it would take.

Or how far could it go on E85 + Meth. Where is the bottlebeck, at some point in time the heads have to be holding things back, right?

[CrownMotorsport]

I definitely agree with you on the meth. I'd lump the killer chiller in there with that too though. I'm surprised Loe's IATs got up to 65c which is no better than mine at the end of a run. Also I couldnt road course the car or i'd blow the engine. The killer chiller is not great at all for repeated back to back wot runs with no idle time to cool it back down.

Im not sure why heads and cams wouldnt be DD. They can be extremely reliable and hold up to the most extreme road course duty if done right. Im not sure on the Audi tax but you can get cams from world recognized manufactures on the LS scene for 500 bucks a cam and even that is considered outrageously high priced to those folks, lol. Head work is shop time. Unfortunately we just dont have a solution yet. A slightly lumpy idle for another 60whp wouldnt bother me. I'd do it before I did headers which makes the car sound absolutely terrible IMO. Its a regret on my LS that i did long tubes actually. But again even super high quality t304 headers were costing me $700 with a lifetime warranty from people like Kooks and Stainless power. Add a few hundred bucks for high flow cats mounted under the car. There's stuff we could be doing IMO. I dont live next to MRC though and purchasing a tuning suite and trying myself would likely end with me broke and with a broken car, lol.

Mike

I haven't seen anyone making cams for this platform yet and when someone does the cost will be way up there. Pulling heads on the 3.0t requires engine out and the assoc. expense would be tall as well. In the LS world cam replacement is awesome , inexpensive and very streetable. A set of cams for this platform would be awesome but requires some serious tuning to get right. KC is a grand ish all in .. at least thats what we charge with install and thr cooling benefit is a game changer for everyday , highway pull and even roadrace track days. We have a customer and Audiziner running it at sebring and it does wonders for him !

- long winded

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[bhvrdr]

I haven't seen anyone making cams for this platform yet and when someone does the cost will be way up there. Pulling heads on the 3.0t requires engine out and the assoc. expense would be tall as well. In the LS world cam replacement is awesome , inexpensive and very streetable. A set of cams for this platform would be awesome but requires some serious tuning to get right. KC is a grand ish all in .. at least thats what we charge with install and thr cooling benefit is a game changer for everyday , highway pull and even roadrace track days. We have a customer and Audiziner running it at sebring and it does wonders for him !

- long winded

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This is very interesting to me. I appreciate that. Are our cars different somehow in that the IATs continue to be able to be dropped while we are WOT with the killer chiller? The owner of interchiller posted and told me to absolutely not run it road course as the compressor does not work the same under WOT and if you remove your hx and replace it with the KC you will be running naked on a road course. It seems that may be the case if Loe started at 28C and ended at 65c. Thats a huge amount of heat picked up on that pulley ratio over a run. I am picking up only about 19c from idling in the grid (not a track rental where the car was cooled properly) to the end of a run on a 3.17 pr. Looks like he is rising 37c over the course of a run. I dont say this to be negative but I am sincerely interested in a solution I can use for a daily driver and will hold up to road coursing in FL. I had been told by interchiller absolutely no go.

[DBFL]

This is very interesting to me. I appreciate that. Are our cars different somehow in that the IATs continue to be able to be dropped while we are WOT with the killer chiller? The owner of interchiller posted and told me to absolutely not run it road course as the compressor does not work the same under WOT and if you remove your hx and replace it with the KC you will be running naked on a road course. It seems that may be the case if Loe started at 28C and ended at 65c. Thats a huge amount of heat picked up on that pulley ratio over a run. I am picking up only about 19c from idling in the grid (not a track rental where the car was cooled properly) to the end of a run on a 3.17 pr. Looks like he is rising 37c over the course of a run. I dont say this to be negative but I am sincerely interested in a solution I can use for a daily driver and will hold up to road coursing in FL. I had been told by interchiller absolutely no go.

Killer chiller has worked just fine for me at Sebring. Just keep your heat exchanger installed.

[bhvrdr]

Killer chiller has worked just fine for me at Sebring. Just keep your heat exchanger installed.

Gotcha so you run it with the upgraded heat exchanger. Do you know the pros and cons of running it alone versus with the exchanger? How do your IATs seem to hold up? Do you log the sessions? Loe, hopefully this is all relevant to your thread. I want to go 10s some day lol. maybe some day.

Mike

[Loe]

Its fine, always open to discussion. To answer the question on IAT delta, its simply a function of an inefficient intercooler core for the volume of air being pushed through it. The actual fluid temperature is colder after a run versus a car without it, making IAT recovery substantially faster.

[bhvrdr]

Thanks loe. DBFL or Loe, do you guys feel the more extreme differences in temps between the ultra chilled coolant and the ultra hot intake air causing any intercooler failures? Or do you think it was more bad luck or more running extremely high boost like on the 194 pulleys or whatever? DBFL did you have any intercooler failures at all yet? Im going to pick your brains and copy what works hehe.

[Eric_C]

Its fine, always open to discussion. To answer the question on IAT delta, its simply a function of an inefficient intercooler core for the volume of air being pushed through it. The actual fluid temperature is colder after a run versus a car without it, making IAT recovery substantially faster.

Has anyone looked at a IC change?

Different brick setup?

Calloway designed their own IC for their 2.3l SC setup for the LT1's. Uses the traditional 2 brick setup but then added a 3rd, so each inlet goes through an IC, then a blended IC. Not necessarily lower IAT's but they hit a spot and stay there, very consistent for a PD blower setup.

I'd still love to know where the bottle neck is, what holds this back from making a consistent 530-550 HP at the crank which is about where I'd guess you are, right?

[bhvrdr]

Has anyone looked at a IC change?

Different brick setup?

Calloway designed their own IC for their 2.3l SC setup for the LT1's. Uses the traditional 2 brick setup but then added a 3rd, so each inlet goes through an IC, then a blended IC. Not necessarily lower IAT's but they hit a spot and stay there, very consistent for a PD blower setup.

I'd still love to know where the bottle neck is, what holds this back from making a consistent 530-550 HP at the crank which is about where I'd guess you are, right?

I think the issue is we are trying to get that last power by running right on the edge of what the supercharger can do. Running a tvs1320 or any tvs at 22000rpm plus and 21psi plus is not the norm. Its apparently doable but definitely not the norm. Controlling IATs is a huge challenge as is keeping things consistent and not doing things like breaking intercooler cores, blowing cats, or blowing out plug flames. Quite frankly its amazing what people like loe and many others have done and the relatively reliability it has afforded. Thankfully we still havent seen motor failures.... thanks in large part to VCDS and our ECU protections and knowing when to say when. The next big step for reliable and large power increases on our platform is changing up the power adder or increasing efficiency (heads/cams) and thats $$$$$$$$$$$ like crown is saying.

Mike

[KnewJack]

Solid runs. Congrats Loe!

[DBFL]

Gotcha so you run it with the upgraded heat exchanger. Do you know the pros and cons of running it alone versus with the exchanger? How do your IATs seem to hold up? Do you log the sessions? Loe, hopefully this is all relevant to your thread. I want to go 10s some day lol. maybe some day.

Mike

Running a killer chiller without a heat exchanger isn't an option for me. It would most likely overheat during a 30 minute HPDE session. I haven't logged in that sutuation, but I'm going to Sebring again in two weeks. I'll make sure to log a session or two. It'll be a metric shit-ton of data though.
As for your other question, I haven't had any intercooler failures. But my S4 isn't my daily, so it doesn't get driven as often as Loe's car. The killer chiller probably doesn't help there though. The aluminum in the intercoolers probably fails quicker due to the extreme heat that dual-pulley setups create. Combine that with rapid cooling from the killer chiller and it's inevitable that they will fail. There are a couple places locally that will make custom intercoolers that are much stronger. I plan to go that route when mine finally go bad.

[bhvrdr]

Running a killer chiller without a heat exchanger isn't an option for me. It would most likely overheat during a 30 minute HPDE session. I haven't logged in that sutuation, but I'm going to Sebring again in two weeks. I'll make sure to log a session or two. It'll be a metric shit-ton of data though.
As for your other question, I haven't had any intercooler failures. But my S4 isn't my daily, so it doesn't get driven as often as Loe's car. The killer chiller probably doesn't help there though. The aluminum in the intercoolers probably fails quicker due to the extreme heat that dual-pulley setups create. Combine that with rapid cooling from the killer chiller and it's inevitable that they will fail. There are a couple places locally that will make custom intercoolers that are much stronger. I plan to go that route when mine finally go bad.

That's great man. Thank you guys both so much for being so willing to share your setups and help us all. I may be contacting you for the number of that intercooler shop haha

[jimrobbington]

I think the issue is we are trying to get that last power by running right on the edge of what the supercharger can do. Running a tvs1320 or any tvs at 22000rpm plus and 21psi plus is not the norm. Its apparently doable but definitely not the norm. Controlling IATs is a huge challenge as is keeping things consistent and not doing things like breaking intercooler cores, blowing cats, or blowing out plug flames. Quite frankly its amazing what people like loe and many others have done and the relatively reliability it has afforded. Thankfully we still havent seen motor failures.... thanks in large part to VCDS and our ECU protections and knowing when to say when. The next big step for reliable and large power increases on our platform is changing up the power adder or increasing efficiency (heads/cams) and thats $$$$$$$$$$$ like crown is saying.

Mike

FWIW, there was a local guy in Denver who lost his engine, he isn't on AZ though. I believe he was running REVO 1+, dual pulley + CW. A rod bearing seized apparently, though I don't know if that points at anything in particular as the cause. It is the only 3.0T failure I have ever heard of. $16k to repair. Now it's currently in the shop having super secret shit done to it that's supposed to blow everyone away when it's done.

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[doug97gxe]

FWIW, there was a local guy in Denver who lost his engine, he isn't on AZ though. I believe he was running REVO 1+, dual pulley + CW. A rod bearing seized apparently, though I don't know if that points at anything in particular as the cause. It is the only 3.0T failure I have ever heard of. $16k to repair. Now it's currently in the shop having super secret shit done to it that's supposed to blow everyone away when it's done.

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he could prob build a motor cheaper than $16k

[1FastS4.Com]

Great job Loe!! I wish I would have kept my S4 now LOL!!!


BTW SillyRabbit has the sickest Intercooler setup running the AC lines to the heat exchanger.

[Schadenfreude]

Congratulations, Loe

[jokingjimmy]

Grats Loe!

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[Miro]

Congrats!

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[HeymyAudi]

Congrats again LOE...

[MVR 155]

Good for you Loe!!!! You have worked hard at modding your car, been through a bunch of trial/error and it's rewarded you the best time to date!!!

[brad281]

Congrats Loe! What a great accomplishment!

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[BG SQ5]

No one more deserving for this! Big time congrats and thank you for everything you've done progressing the platform, Loe!!

[RReddington]

Sweet!

[bokiboki]

Congrats Loe!

[audistealth]

Congrats Loe!

[Jgm22]

Awesome job Loe!!!