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  1. #1
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    Any owner-tuning options for the ECU?

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    I've been a tuning hobbyist for quite some time now. I have my own wideband O2 and AFR logging setup. I've been spoilt with my most recent car (E90 335i N54), which has factory wideband O2 sensors and extremely good full-time closed-loop fuel control to whatever target AFR you set. There are so many tables available to change pretty much anything and everything. Great flashing, monitoring and logging is available from a low cost Android app (MHD Flasher N54) in conjunction with a $20 cable.

    It seems that in the Audi world, there are only really either brand name off-the-shelf tunes or custom tunes from tuning companies who have expensive Dimsport or similar flashing tools. Am I correct in saying this?

    Are there any owner-tuning options (eg. like Tactrix/RomRaider/ECUFlash for Subaru/Mitsubishi, HPTuners for GM/Dodge, Cobb etc)?

    I really like to have the control of customizing my own tune to my liking (eg throttle maps etc).

  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Not many or any i know of have done this
    http://www.dimsport.us/en/tuning-lin...to/audi/s4-8k/


    There really arent alot of parts out there available for our cars like cams, blowers, etc that would require a bunch of individual tunes. There are some decent ots options out there that get the job done. The audi community is unfortunately largely monopolized by a few ots options. It would be nice to be able to calibrate ourselves though since not all of our options are perfect

    2018 Audi S5
    12.72 @ 108.85mph - 93 octane - +1565DA - Bone Stock
    11.68 @ 117mph - e30 octane - (-945DA) - jb4 only

    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic ECU & 034 TCU, 3.17pr
    11.07 at 123.62mph - draggy - 93 octane - (-407ft DA)
    Gone-
    '10 A4 Avant - '13 S5 #1 -- '16 A6 -- '15 S4 -- '09 A4 -- '04 S4 -- '06 A4 -- '03 A4 -- '00 A4

  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings Militant-Grunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradsm87 View Post
    I've been a tuning hobbyist for quite some time now. I have my own wideband O2 and AFR logging setup. I've been spoilt with my most recent car (E90 335i N54), which has factory wideband O2 sensors and extremely good full-time closed-loop fuel control to whatever target AFR you set. There are so many tables available to change pretty much anything and everything. Great flashing, monitoring and logging is available from a low cost Android app (MHD Flasher N54) in conjunction with a $20 cable.

    It seems that in the Audi world, there are only really either brand name off-the-shelf tunes or custom tunes from tuning companies who have expensive Dimsport or similar flashing tools. Am I correct in saying this?

    Are there any owner-tuning options (eg. like Tactrix/RomRaider/ECUFlash for Subaru/Mitsubishi, HPTuners for GM/Dodge, Cobb etc)?

    I really like to have the control of customizing my own tune to my liking (eg throttle maps etc).
    Eurodyne meastro.

    http://www.eurodyne.ca/shop/audi/sta...ite-ccta-cbfa/

    Basically a tuning suite similar to any standalone, lets you reflash your ecu. Its only paired to your ecu though and none else.
    -MilitantGrunt- Certified Audi Dealership Technician / Parts Manager
    -18 718 GTS
    -10 B8 A4 Avant - 6spd swapped / built motor / Pag Parts EFR 7163 Turbo Setup.

  4. #4
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Militant-Grunt View Post
    Eurodyne meastro.

    http://www.eurodyne.ca/shop/audi/sta...ite-ccta-cbfa/

    Basically a tuning suite similar to any standalone, lets you reflash your ecu. Its only paired to your ecu though and none else.
    I didnt think they had anything for us?

    2018 Audi S5
    12.72 @ 108.85mph - 93 octane - +1565DA - Bone Stock
    11.68 @ 117mph - e30 octane - (-945DA) - jb4 only

    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic ECU & 034 TCU, 3.17pr
    11.07 at 123.62mph - draggy - 93 octane - (-407ft DA)
    Gone-
    '10 A4 Avant - '13 S5 #1 -- '16 A6 -- '15 S4 -- '09 A4 -- '04 S4 -- '06 A4 -- '03 A4 -- '00 A4

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings Militant-Grunt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    I didnt think they had anything for us?
    Its supported now. Contact Arnold @ Pag Parts, he's done eurodyne meastro on his B8 Vband kits already.




    Edit: Just realized this was the S4 thread lol. So yes, not available for the B8 S4, but available for B8 A4.
    Last edited by Militant-Grunt; 02-17-2017 at 08:16 PM.
    -MilitantGrunt- Certified Audi Dealership Technician / Parts Manager
    -18 718 GTS
    -10 B8 A4 Avant - 6spd swapped / built motor / Pag Parts EFR 7163 Turbo Setup.

  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings Thurston's Avatar
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    good question by the op and I think potentially the next frontier if the levy breaks.

  7. #7
    Established Member Two Rings one_sk's Avatar
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    Lightbulb DIY custom tuning

    Good to see this thread finally happened; I was going to start one myself, yet was postponing it until I have something worthwhile to share. My post will surely be long, please try to follow it, I will really appreciate any feedback.

    For me that question first arose when I reached out to APR asking for a custom tune, as the ones available off the shelf matched the locally made race fuels poorly - for example, the cheap RON 102 blend did not see any improvement on APR 93 map, but was too risky to run on 100 map. Additionally, as far as I'm aware nobody has properly tuned for water injection yet (by properly adjusting ignition timing while carefully watching the EGT dynamics), instead resolving to very adhoc and risky stuff like running 93 octane with meth on 100 or even 104 tune.

    Then comes the dual pulley. While being a rather trivial change hardware wise (many turbo guys would consider this a mere "boost up"), people use arcane stuff like ChipWerke piggybacks to prevent the ECU from bleeding excess boost. Additionally, boost in excess of 1.1 bar falls off the base map, which IMO is not a safe thing to do generally, and I mentioned this earlier (here).

    All in all, Continental ECU is very adaptable and many 3.0T guys were able to get away with all that stuff without major consequences, but in the most general sense the lack of custom tuning solution for this platform has handicapped this platform for a long time.

    While SIMOS has some complexities with regard to tuning protection when compared to earlier ECUs, in my opinion the lack of custom tuning solution is mostly because large companies that were able to crack it are not interested in home flashing, and are much better off selling canned tunes to recoup their R&D costs.

    That's enough for the introduction. From my interchange with APR i understood that no one among the big guys are really interested in giving you the tools of their trade, it's right against their profit model actually. So there is really no other choice other than develop a solution to this myself. This turned into a hobby project which at the beginning seemed insurmountable, but as time passes fewer unresolved issues remain. And here I will try to describe the grand scheme of things for people not familiar with chip tuning workabouts.

    DOCUMENTATION

    First and foremost, you can do little if you don't know where to see. There are internal documents in Audi which detail pretty much everything - from pin designations to every message sent on CAN bus. These are called Funktionsrahmens and are assumed to never be seen by anyone outside VAG, but we live in a world where everything can be stolen, so many of these can be purchased for a $200-300 fee on deep web or specialized closed forums. I currently have a copy of SIMOS 8.5 and DL501 Gen 2 funktionshrahmens, and gosh they are detailed - the one for the 3.0 TFSI is over 13k (yes, thirteen thousand) pages long, and it describes every memory location, every map and every operation algorithm there is.

    These docs are used by Audi engineers to calibrate the engine, and having this info on hand thus allows you to tweak principally anything, provided you have the knowledge and tools. I'm really thinking of making a gratuity gift and sharing these documents for free, but I am not sure about legal consequences of that.

    MAP PACKS

    This is another component to a successful chip tuning - armed with the knowledge of what to tweak, you need to know where to tweak. The ECU file is a 2MB blob of binary data, and you need to know the exact locations. This information is available in A2L files, which are text files of special format which designate the binary location of all parameters described in funktionsrahmen, and are not purposed to be seen by anyone outside VAG too, but here we are. Sometimes they are converted to other formats like OLS (which is binary equivalent of A2L used by WinOls software) and are also available for trade. I have map packs for SIMOS 8.4 and DL501, which allows me to edit pretty much anything in my 2010 B8.

    SOFTWARE & CABLES

    Here things come cheesy - you need to download and upload your firmware, and there is no $20 cable for SIMOS flashing. You can try with professional chip tuning hardware like CMDFlash, MPPS, KESS etc. but this stuff costs thousands bucks when bought legitimately, and Chinese clones usually have issues. This is prohibitive for an enthusiast looking to tune his/her own car. Thus we B8 owners are simply unlucky to have an unpopular and complex ECU.

    I'm a software engineer myself, so I took off to develop my own solution to flashing SIMOS and DL501. Having all the docs, this task is hard, but feasible. From hardware side all you need is a USB-CAN adapter like CAN hacker to talk to the ECU. But the flashing protocol, while described in functionsrahmen, is impeded with tuning protection, and I suppose that is the largest hurdle tuning companies have encountered on their way to OBD flashing without previous bench unlock.

    Beating the tuning protection is a hard thing in itself, but luckily I don't have to - a friend chiptuner of mine has provided me with a full CAN bus sniffer log of a successful OBD flash. By reverse engineering it, I hope to get past this hurdle.

    I also have purchased a salvage SIMOS 8.4 ECU off eBay to experiment on it - trying an unfinished software directly on my car sends chills down my spine, but I hope one day it wouldn't.

    So, summing it up, having all the docs, map packs, custom written flashing software and a USB CAN adapter is basically all that is needed to provide a custom tuning solution for this platform. Given that you cheat a little (I mean peep into how the tuners have dealt with tuning protection instead of fighting it on your own) this is feasible for one software engineer to implement as a hobby project. I only imagine the possibilities that open when a whole community starts working on it in a typical open-source fashion - imagine custom tunes for basically anything, stuff like water injection, twinchargers, turbo conversions or Rotrex/Vortech instead of TVS1320, custom program switching or traction control, bigger throttle bodies, nitrous, etc. etc. etc. A whole world of possibilities which already exist in other car communities but have largely remained untapped on B8 S4 scene, with ridiculous stuff like piggybacks in their place.

    So once I flash my experimentation ECU successfully I'm going to share my findings to the public, in hope that this platform will finally see something more diverse than a plethora of cloned 450 hp stage II cars. It's about time. The only thing I regret is that no one has accomplished that before me (that I'm aware of), so that I can just use an off-the-shelf solution.

    So if anyone is willing to help make all of this happen sooner, let's work together. And to my understanding, OP, for now this is the only option for custom flashing we the B8 owners have.
    Last edited by one_sk; 02-18-2017 at 11:30 PM.
    2010 B8 S4.0tt (2015 RS6 engine swap). 10.06@137, 6.23 60-130, 2.5 0-60, 750 hp 900 lbft on 93.
    Instagram: s4.0tt
    Audizine: announcement thread.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    That would be great! Let us,know what you need. Companies like dimmsport and alientech have flashers,for our cars and tuning suites you can buy. We could theoretically be custom tuning by tomorrow. I believe companies like SRM were using it in their b8 s4 turbo project. If anyone here had enough need u can reach out to them
    Mike

    2018 Audi S5
    12.72 @ 108.85mph - 93 octane - +1565DA - Bone Stock
    11.68 @ 117mph - e30 octane - (-945DA) - jb4 only

    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic ECU & 034 TCU, 3.17pr
    11.07 at 123.62mph - draggy - 93 octane - (-407ft DA)
    Gone-
    '10 A4 Avant - '13 S5 #1 -- '16 A6 -- '15 S4 -- '09 A4 -- '04 S4 -- '06 A4 -- '03 A4 -- '00 A4

  9. #9
    Established Member Two Rings one_sk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Companies like dimmsport and alientech have flashers,for our cars and tuning suites you can buy. We could theoretically be custom tuning by tomorrow. I believe companies like SRM were using it in their b8 s4 turbo project.
    I mentioned this, but the stopping factor IMO is that this hardware costs prohibitively much for an average enthusiast (around $3-10k depending on model and feature completeness), and thus will never acquire the critical mass of DIY tuners that will be able to compete with canned tunes.

    In fact, my first attempt was with reaching out to a shop that has CMDFlash and paying them to use it, but at the moment it wasn't able to deal with 8.4 via OBD (or it was the consequence of some protection built into APR flash, as my car was tuned by that time, idk), so I went the hard route.

    When there will be a said $20 cable for flashing things will take off, as all the docs are already at my disposal. My first milestone is tuning my own car; however if there will be a community resource where people can upload different software revisions, share logging runs etc, this will help generalize it to a usable alternative to tools the OP has mentioned.

    Also while I have no problem sharing all the docs I have, I'm not sure whether it is legal to do so. Every place on the net where you can obtain it requires payment, after which these get transferred to you in private. I'm really not sure what would Audi do if I publish those on some website:


    Last edited by one_sk; 02-18-2017 at 11:31 PM.
    2010 B8 S4.0tt (2015 RS6 engine swap). 10.06@137, 6.23 60-130, 2.5 0-60, 750 hp 900 lbft on 93.
    Instagram: s4.0tt
    Audizine: announcement thread.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    I think people would be all over it. There are plenty of us running tunes that arent optimized for our hardware and conditions/fuel quality

    2018 Audi S5
    12.72 @ 108.85mph - 93 octane - +1565DA - Bone Stock
    11.68 @ 117mph - e30 octane - (-945DA) - jb4 only

    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic ECU & 034 TCU, 3.17pr
    11.07 at 123.62mph - draggy - 93 octane - (-407ft DA)
    Gone-
    '10 A4 Avant - '13 S5 #1 -- '16 A6 -- '15 S4 -- '09 A4 -- '04 S4 -- '06 A4 -- '03 A4 -- '00 A4

  11. #11
    Established Member Two Rings one_sk's Avatar
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    And this is the part of CAN bus transcript of a successful ECU & TCU flash which I'm reverse engineering right now:



    I'm posting this to try and convince everyone that I'm serious on this and not daydreaming :)

    In fact it looks like plain KWP2000 wrapped within ISO TP, no rocket science. The interesting part is how the tuner managed to get past RSA checksums, well this will take some time. But I don't have to battle that one myself, I can just borrow their solution.

    P.S. While using CAN sniffer transcripts can be theoretically used to pirate tunes, I want to declare loud and clear that it is against my ethical principles & against my intents, so these CAN logs will never see the Internet, and I will not help someone to get a canned tune illegitimately (sadly, there were already several requests like that from local B8 owners who know what I was doing, all of which I refused). My only intent is to cut down on development time, as this is a single-person hobby project which is done in my free time after my day job, and currently I have no intent on earning something off it - my biggest quest is advancing the 3.0T community to the place where I think it should be by now.
    Last edited by one_sk; 02-18-2017 at 11:32 PM.
    2010 B8 S4.0tt (2015 RS6 engine swap). 10.06@137, 6.23 60-130, 2.5 0-60, 750 hp 900 lbft on 93.
    Instagram: s4.0tt
    Audizine: announcement thread.

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings Thurston's Avatar
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    nice & good luck. ^

  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings bhvrdr's Avatar
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    Pm me your email address in case the tuners get you banned on this site.

    Id suggest that anything you want to share thats proprietary you do so only back channel with us so u dont get in trouble.

    Altough all of our tuners have been accused of borrowing and reverse engineering from each other i suspect when the little guy does it u may get some backlash

    Mike

    2018 Audi S5
    12.72 @ 108.85mph - 93 octane - +1565DA - Bone Stock
    11.68 @ 117mph - e30 octane - (-945DA) - jb4 only

    2013 Audi S5 DSG - Unitronic ECU & 034 TCU, 3.17pr
    11.07 at 123.62mph - draggy - 93 octane - (-407ft DA)
    Gone-
    '10 A4 Avant - '13 S5 #1 -- '16 A6 -- '15 S4 -- '09 A4 -- '04 S4 -- '06 A4 -- '03 A4 -- '00 A4

  14. #14
    Veteran Member Four Rings fitzydude's Avatar
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    I would love to run a Megasquirt setup, but that would be a little out of my capabilities wiring it up and making a base tune from scratch. But once you had a base tune setup it would be fun to tweak the tune.
    2010 S4 / 6MT / 034 RSWB & Motor Mounts / AMS Cooling / EC Alu Kreuz & inserts / B12 suspension / CTS SC & JHM OD Pulley (PR:3.139) / JHM STS & Stg 4 clutch / Magnaflow w/cutouts / CTS Downpipes / V710 / Eventuri-Euro / USP clutch line / E35 / Chipwerke 3-1 / Revo - 467 awhp

  15. #15
    Established Member Two Rings one_sk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    Pm me your email address in case the tuners get you banned on this site.

    Id suggest that anything you want to share thats proprietary you do so only back channel with us so u dont get in trouble.

    Altough all of our tuners have been accused of borrowing and reverse engineering from each other i suspect when the little guy does it u may get some backlash

    Mike
    PMed, but I'm actually not going to share anything proprietary here - once I have minimum viable product, I'm going to put up my own web resource to host downloads & discussions regarding it. Additionally, I actually don't think I'm doing anything wrong - I'm logging powertrain CAN transmissions on my own (or my friends', with their full consent) car, which is something I have every right to do. I do not remember signing off any EULA or other agreement when flashing, and I'm not planning to infringe any copyrights, just do some reverse engineering. The only entity which can have a problem with that is Audi, as it is their intellectual property; every other tuner itself differs from "the little guy" in the profits and budgets department, but does essentially the same thing - reverse engineers Audi's firmware, only because Audi puts a blind eye on it and does not prosecute them legally.

    Actually, nothing prevents anyone from banning me from here either. I wouldn't regret much though; if someone does it, it will damage their reputation far worse, and will not conceal anything - you can't really hide something on the Internet :)

    I would love to run a Megasquirt setup, but that would be a little out of my capabilities wiring it up and making a base tune from scratch. But once you had a base tune setup it would be fun to tweak the tune.
    I believe Megasquirt is not advanced enough to control this motor - the biggest hurdle is direct injection, which will require additional hardware, plus the firmware may require nontrivial tweaking. There is a Russian guy from Canada iirc who runs Syvecs standalone on his twincharged S5, but that isn't exactly the cheapest option.

    Additionally, aside from more extreme modifications like going turbo, running a stock ECU may actually be much safer and more enjoyable unless you invest _huge_ time into calibrations, simply because you're basing off thousands of hours of qualified work put into base map by Audi calibrators.
    2010 B8 S4.0tt (2015 RS6 engine swap). 10.06@137, 6.23 60-130, 2.5 0-60, 750 hp 900 lbft on 93.
    Instagram: s4.0tt
    Audizine: announcement thread.

  16. #16
    Active Member One Ring
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    Hi one_sk, I'm not sure if my PM to you worked. I tried twice but my sent items is empty. If you haven't got one, could you please send me one?

    Cheers

  17. #17
    Established Member Two Rings one_sk's Avatar
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    I've reached an important milestone today.

    Finishing up my ISO TP/KWP2000 parser and running it on a CAN sniffer log of a 8.4 flash, I've decided to collect all three requestDownload sessions and their transferData calls to try to guess the encryption method used to protect CAN payloads from sniffing. I've heard that older ECUs use quite simple encryption schemes, like 10 byte long substitution ciphers, but when I saw consecutive valued bytes wrapping at 0xFF and starting from scratch, my first thought was "you are f***ing kidding me".



    Yet my guess was totally true - SIMOS 8.4 uses a kindergarten-level XOR encryption for its CAN payloads, so now I possess full PFLASH content (not just calibration area) of a stage II tune.

    Some excerpts of that data:



    seeing ASCII constants on radar is a definite sign that everything went correct



    as is the start of the calibration area

    So currently I possess all the knowledge required to develop a piece of software that would be able to flash this blob of data back to an ECU with a $20 cable. To be able to tweak it, there is need to find and overcome protection mechanism inherent to the tune, which will involve some disasm work. Still I think the very presence of unencrypted full read places the B8 tuning from the realm of mysteries to the realm of "yet another chip tuning problem", which is a significant leap forward.

    So stay tuned! :)
    2010 B8 S4.0tt (2015 RS6 engine swap). 10.06@137, 6.23 60-130, 2.5 0-60, 750 hp 900 lbft on 93.
    Instagram: s4.0tt
    Audizine: announcement thread.

  18. #18
    Veteran Member Three Rings skiptowncat's Avatar
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    Very interested in what's going on here, keep up the good work!
    2015 C7.5 S6//DS1 STAGE 3//SRM INTAKES//034 X-PIPE//H&R SWAYS

  19. #19
    Veteran Member Three Rings AudiFamilyGuy06's Avatar
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    This is very cool. I don't really understand the programming aspect, but I love the problem solving angles and persistence! Keep at it!

    Joe

  20. #20
    Senior Member Three Rings jordon's Avatar
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    Wow.... could it be that the b8 community is about to enter a new era.... similar to that of the b5 with nefmoto?
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  21. #21
    Veteran Member Four Rings jimrobbington's Avatar
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    Power to the people! Good work OP!

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  22. #22
    Veteran Member Four Rings Thurston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bhvrdr View Post
    I believe companies like SRM were using it in their b8 s4 turbo project. If anyone here had enough need u can reach out to them
    Mike
    Can we just talk about that for a second? What happened? same old story regarding heat? (don't forget the lengths they went to control it w/ meth / farther than anyone i've seen go on here) I see that Solo also had to throw in the towel w/ Ukurish's car and I feel like there is a massive lesson to be learned here ... two times they tried standalone ecu's w/ people throwing money at em to get it to work and couldn't. what happened and what lessons can be gleaned?

    but... as far as usurping the big box tuning folks ... interesting, don't really know what to think.

  23. #23
    Established Member Two Rings one_sk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jordon View Post
    Wow.... could it be that the b8 community is about to enter a new era.... similar to that of the b5 with nefmoto?
    That's the inspiration in fact. I remember all the talk about how that new forced induction S4 will be 'the new B5' after two generations of naturally aspirated V8s, and this still hasn't happened.

    Yet don't get me wrong - there are still a lot of issues to solve. First of all, I'm targeting just the 8.4 cars for now, which pretty much excludes B8.5 - I don't know a thing about them, maybe they will be easy, maybe not. Then, even with FR & DAMOS, there is still some reverse engineering work to do, but I hope it will go on thumb.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurston View Post
    Can we just talk about that for a second? What happened? same old story regarding heat? (don't forget the lengths they went to control it w/ meth / farther than anyone i've seen go on here) I see that Solo also had to throw in the towel w/ Ukurish's car and I feel like there is a massive lesson to be learned here ... two times they tried standalone ecu's w/ people throwing money at em to get it to work and couldn't. what happened and what lessons can be gleaned?
    From what I see in the FR of the motor, control strategies in many parts are ways more advanced than I anticipated before. Maybe it is simply not very practical to map a modern MAP-driven direct-injected engine with VVT from scratch on standalone. For upgraded superchargers or even turbochargers with external boost control stock ECU seems like a much more viable option.

    Still, learning from twincharging experiments and MRC's attempts at replacing TVS1320 with Rotrex units (iirc they capped at ~550 chp @ 1.5 bar on a supercharger with turbo-like efficiency), it really seems to me that the real problem lies in heads - without removing this restriction you're pushing the boost without actually improving the airflow, which being coupled with high IATs and already modest intercooling robs you of power. Stuff like bigger plenum or more aggressive intake cams should help (at the expense of throttle response and idle roughness), but so far I've seen no one offer this. Then comes a question of internals strength, and still we have almost zero credible information on the block limits. At least APR seem confident that 540 hp on race fuel should last long enough not to bother (this is from TVS1740 dyno sheets, as they claim that they've deliberately pushed one motor to the limit to find the safe edge).

    Anyway, my personal goal with this project is to properly tune for all the stuff that is on my car currently (headers, dual pulley, water injection coming soon), taking into account the locally available Russian-made race fuels which do not match the files offered by APR. Additionally, the bogging there is on upshifts on TCU tune is a problem that is almost 2 years old now, with no credible ETA on the solution, so I may just lower the redline on the affected gears to get rid of it.
    2010 B8 S4.0tt (2015 RS6 engine swap). 10.06@137, 6.23 60-130, 2.5 0-60, 750 hp 900 lbft on 93.
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  24. #24
    Veteran Member Four Rings Thurston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_sk View Post
    From what I see in the FR of the motor, control strategies in many parts are ways more advanced than I anticipated before. Maybe it is simply not very practical to map a modern MAP-driven direct-injected engine with VVT from scratch on standalone. For upgraded superchargers or even turbochargers with external boost control stock ECU seems like a much more viable option.

    Still, learning from twincharging experiments and MRC's attempts at replacing TVS1320 with Rotrex units (iirc they capped at ~550 chp @ 1.5 bar on a supercharger with turbo-like efficiency), it really seems to me that the real problem lies in heads - without removing this restriction you're pushing the boost without actually improving the airflow, which being coupled with high IATs and already modest intercooling robs you of power. Stuff like bigger plenum or more aggressive intake cams should help (at the expense of throttle response and idle roughness), but so far I've seen no one offer this. Then comes a question of internals strength, and still we have almost zero credible information on the block limits. At least APR seem confident that 540 hp on race fuel should last long enough not to bother (this is from TVS1740 dyno sheets, as they claim that they've deliberately pushed one motor to the limit to find the safe edge).

    An

    I actually have never heard of the Rotrex unit attempts so thanks for giving me a new rabbit hole to travel down. Hey what does FR stand for?

  25. #25
    Established Member Two Rings one_sk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurston View Post
    I actually have never heard of the Rotrex unit attempts so thanks for giving me a new rabbit hole to travel down.
    Here is where I've got this from. There were also a thread here iirc. From what I see in this photos, it's that kit from TTS, only fitted to a B8 S4 with an adapter plate as an experiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurston View Post
    Hey what does FR stand for?
    Funktionsrahmen. I've already elaborated what it is earlier in this thread.
    2010 B8 S4.0tt (2015 RS6 engine swap). 10.06@137, 6.23 60-130, 2.5 0-60, 750 hp 900 lbft on 93.
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    Veteran Member Four Rings LittleDozer's Avatar
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    More power to you, good luck with all of this. I'm anxiously waiting for the next 'big thing' in this platform.

  27. #27
    Veteran Member Four Rings JD S4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by one_sk View Post
    That's the inspiration in fact. I remember all the talk about how that new forced induction S4 will be 'the new B5' after two generations of naturally aspirated V8s, and this still hasn't happened.

    Yet don't get me wrong - there are still a lot of issues to solve. First of all, I'm targeting just the 8.4 cars for now, which pretty much excludes B8.5 - I don't know a thing about them, maybe they will be easy, maybe not. Then, even with FR & DAMOS, there is still some reverse engineering work to do, but I hope it will go on thumb.



    From what I see in the FR of the motor, control strategies in many parts are ways more advanced than I anticipated before. Maybe it is simply not very practical to map a modern MAP-driven direct-injected engine with VVT from scratch on standalone. For upgraded superchargers or even turbochargers with external boost control stock ECU seems like a much more viable option.

    Still, learning from twincharging experiments and MRC's attempts at replacing TVS1320 with Rotrex units (iirc they capped at ~550 chp @ 1.5 bar on a supercharger with turbo-like efficiency), it really seems to me that the real problem lies in heads - without removing this restriction you're pushing the boost without actually improving the airflow, which being coupled with high IATs and already modest intercooling robs you of power. Stuff like bigger plenum or more aggressive intake cams should help (at the expense of throttle response and idle roughness), but so far I've seen no one offer this. Then comes a question of internals strength, and still we have almost zero credible information on the block limits. At least APR seem confident that 540 hp on race fuel should last long enough not to bother (this is from TVS1740 dyno sheets, as they claim that they've deliberately pushed one motor to the limit to find the safe edge).

    Anyway, my personal goal with this project is to properly tune for all the stuff that is on my car currently (headers, dual pulley, water injection coming soon), taking into account the locally available Russian-made race fuels which do not match the files offered by APR. Additionally, the bogging there is on upshifts on TCU tune is a problem that is almost 2 years old now, with no credible ETA on the solution, so I may just lower the redline on the affected gears to get rid of it.

    Great thread. the APR TCU tune has apparently been udpated
    '18 S5 - BBS / EPL

  28. #28
    Veteran Member Four Rings UkuRiSh's Avatar
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    Good info , did you ever figure it out with Simos 8.5 ECU ?
    2013 AUDI S5 4.0T SWAP 9.7@145mph < Press @svarog_performance < last test updates

  29. #29
    Veteran Member Four Rings jibberjive's Avatar
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    Cool thread. Did this ever go anywhere?
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  30. #30
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Revitalize this thread, and someone make a supercharger kit for the 3.2 bkh

  31. #31
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    Isn't HP Tuners an option for these cars now?

    We really need a TVS1900.
    2012 A6 Prestige - APR single pulley via Fluidampr 189, Injen intake+RS7 airbox, IE HPFP, EPL TCU, JHM HX, 034 motor mounts, Eurocode drivetrain inserts, gutted cats - 034 tunes purchased, not installed.

  32. #32
    Established Member Two Rings
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    Quote Originally Posted by sepheroth86 View Post
    Isn't HP Tuners an option for these cars now?

    We really need a TVS1900.
    HP Tuners does show support for the B8/8.5 ECUs, but from what I can see the tune repository is quite limited and only covers the 2.0T mbq cars. This would be a great option and a huge step forward for someone willing to do the work with HPT.


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  33. #33
    Veteran Member Four Rings
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    A quick look on the HPT website shows Simos 8.4 and 8.5 as supported as well as the S6/7 and RS models with the 4.0tt.

    I would have much rather done a real dyno tune vs a box tune.
    2012 A6 Prestige - APR single pulley via Fluidampr 189, Injen intake+RS7 airbox, IE HPFP, EPL TCU, JHM HX, 034 motor mounts, Eurocode drivetrain inserts, gutted cats - 034 tunes purchased, not installed.

  34. #34
    Senior Member Three Rings usmcfieldmp's Avatar
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    I have an original MPVI Pro cable, but need to send it in for their new MPVI2 dongle to be able to do VW/Audi stuff.

    Last I looked though, there's no S Tronic support. A6's and others with the ZF can do trans tuning the it though.
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