my copper spark plug experience

**Ian1006** · 01-20-2017 07:01 AM

I have only owned this car for about 7-8 months and it's my first German car, so far I really like it. So this isn't a super experienced review with tons of data but what I have noticed. I needed to catch up on minor maintenance when I first got it so I did timing belt, water pump, air filter, oil change, etc.

I also changed spark plugs which were due and after reading about them I decided to try copper out even though I am 100% stock. I gapped them at .032 and I just put 5k miles on them so I thought I would check them while I was doing my valve cover gasket as I heard that is how long them last.

They look practically new still and the gap was still the same. My trip computer also says I get 33-35 mpg on the highway but my hand calculations put me at around 31-32. I notice good and smooth power too. Overall 8 dollar spark plugs seem like they work really well on this car. I opened the gap up to .035 and will see how that goes this next month too. If I keep the car I'll probably upgrade to fsi coils soon and maybe open them up a little more even.

Anyways my .02

**Ian1006** · 01-20-2017 07:02 AM

My mpg listed above is tank averages not instant mpg again primarily highway

**EuroxS4** · 01-20-2017 07:08 AM

Copper spark plugs have a solid copper core, but the business end of the center electrode is actually a 2.5mm-diameter nickel alloy. That’s the largest diameter electrode of all the spark plug types. Remember, the smaller the diameter, the less voltage required to initiate the spark. Nickel alloy is also softer than either platinum or iridium, so the sharp firing edge you get right out of the box tends to wear out quickly. Despite those shortcomings, copper spark plugs are still a good choice for certain applications. Copper spark plugs are best for older (pre-‘80s) vehicles with low voltage distributor-based ignition systems. But don’t use copper spark plugs in high-energy distributor-less ignition systems (DIS) or coil-on-plug (COP) ignition systems. They’ll wear out too quickly.
There’s one exception to that advice. Some late-model high-performance engines were designed specifically for copper spark plugs. In those cases, copper spark plugs are considered to be high performance spark plugs. If your owner’s manual calls for copper spark plugs, don’t upgrade to platinum spark plugs or iridium spark plugs.

Good luck!!!

**Kevin C** · 01-20-2017 07:20 AM

True Story: Those fancy platinum tipped plugs (or what ever other fancy metal they have), almost always have a copper core. Basically, the differentiation is fine tipped with an exotic metal that does not errode so it can be a fine tip or large diameter and less erosion resistant.

AS EuroxS4 pointed out, the finer the tip (or sharper the edge) the easier it is for a spark to jump the gap ( it matters on both sides).

Do non tipped plugs still come in non copper core versions? I remember when a copper core was the go to exotic plug and we had the same discussions on standard core vs copper.

**jacobsen** · 01-20-2017 12:52 PM

I'm running the IQ 01 Denso iridium racing plugs at .035 Gap. I can get up to 33 miles per gallon in winter time around town. On the open road at 60 miles an hour cruise control I can get up to 37 on the dash. Probably a couple less than that in reality. I'm APR stage 2 however.

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**jacobsen** · 01-20-2017 02:28 PM

I forgot to mention I'm running the red R8 coils latest revision

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**old guy** · 01-20-2017 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by jacobsen

I'm running the IQ 01 Denso iridium racing plugs at .035 Gap. I can get up to 33 miles per gallon in winter time around town. On the open road at 60 miles an hour cruise control I can get up to 37 on the dash. Probably a couple less than that in reality. I'm APR stage 2 however.

Once you go with bigger injectors your display will be inaccurate. The ECU is calculating the usage based upon the duty cycle assuming the flow rate of the OEM injectors (282cc). Since you are running the TT225 (386cc) injectors you are using a lot more gas than the ECU recognizes.

You can adjust for this using VCDS as outlined below:.

Module 17 (Instruments), Adaptation channel 03
- Affects: Instantaneous Fuel Consumption, Average Fuel Consumption, Range, & Distance to Empty
- Default: 100%
- Range of values: 85% → 115%

The first step is to calculate your actual MPG and compare it to the display. As you can see the default is 100%. I suspect what you will find is that you need to adjust to the maximum (115%) and even then your display will be around 5% optimistic.

**jacobsen** · 01-20-2017 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by old guy

Once you go with bigger injectors your display will be inaccurate. The ECU is calculating the usage based upon the duty cycle assuming the flow rate of the OEM injectors (282cc). Since you are running the TT225 (386cc) injectors you are using a lot more gas than the ECU recognizes.

You can adjust for this using VCDS as outlined below:.

Module 17 (Instruments), Adaptation channel 03
- Affects: Instantaneous Fuel Consumption, Average Fuel Consumption, Range, & Distance to Empty
- Default: 100%
- Range of values: 85% → 115%

The first step is to calculate your actual MPG and compare it to the display. As you can see the default is 100%. I suspect what you will find is that you need to adjust to the maximum (115%) and even then your display will be around 5% optimistic.

I think the shop I had the software loaded did that. I'll have to check with them. I don't have vagcom. I will say however the mileage has been exceptional even hand calculated. I want to say it's actually improved since the head started leaking.

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**BumblebVR6** · 01-20-2017 06:29 PM

Running BKR7EIX, gapped .018. APR 1+ tune w/ TT225 injectors. Getting consistent 350mi per tank and averaging 27.1mpg according to my gas cubby app.

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**jacobsen** · 01-20-2017 06:33 PM

Why such a small Gap? Is this a 1.8?

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**BumblebVR6** · 01-25-2017 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by jacobsen

Why such a small Gap? Is this a 1.8?

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Yes, 1.8T. The smaller the gap, the less chance of spark blowout from boost and high cylinder pressures. A friend of mine is a tuner and that's what he recommended. Granted, he works and tunes high power cars and this is probably overkill on mine, but it has been running great and mileage has stayed consistent after swapping from the PFR6Q's.

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**Ian1006** · 01-30-2017 09:48 AM

I ordered some denso iridium ik20 spark plugs today to try out. Had a hard to start for the first time the other day and so I'll do plugs and fuel filter. Only happened once but I am over the miles these supposedly last already.
I hear the densos are gapped at .04 and need to be closed down to .032 which will be fun since I can't touch the electrode or I will ruin it. I was going to do double platinum but these had really good reviews and should last even longer than double plats.
There are a lot of really good reviews for these on the 1.8 on Audi world and vortex and a couple here as well from googling. Should get 40-50k miles out of them vs the 5-7k of these coppers.
Overall I think the copper performed well but the sharp edge being eroded and having to change them this often is not ideal especially since my coil wires are crispy and I don't want to mess with them that much because I don't want to replace the wiring just yet haha.
I think for those running e85 and high boost these would work well but being stock I am just going to go for longevity at the moment haha.

**jacobsen** · 01-30-2017 10:10 AM

The Denso plugs are the best it's better for your cylinder head spark plug threads not to change them all the time, it's easy to chew them up that soft aluminum.

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**eljay** · 01-30-2017 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by old guy

Once you go with bigger injectors your display will be inaccurate. The ECU is calculating the usage based upon the duty cycle assuming the flow rate of the OEM injectors (282cc). Since you are running the TT225 (386cc) injectors you are using a lot more gas than the ECU recognizes.

You can adjust for this using VCDS as outlined below:.

Module 17 (Instruments), Adaptation channel 03
- Affects: Instantaneous Fuel Consumption, Average Fuel Consumption, Range, & Distance to Empty
- Default: 100%
- Range of values: 85% → 115%

The first step is to calculate your actual MPG and compare it to the display. As you can see the default is 100%. I suspect what you will find is that you need to adjust to the maximum (115%) and even then your display will be around 5% optimistic.

I can confirm this. I am just now tracking the past several fillups to get a good average, so I can go in and adjust the display. My real fuel consumption is about 20% worse than the display suggests.
I don't know how you guys get such great fuel economy. My average is 13.4L/100kms or 17.6 mpg. Granted, it's mostly city and my wife does like to race everyone at stop lights.

Edit: I forgot to mention that I have GTRS kit with 630cc injectors.

**jacobsen** · 01-30-2017 10:34 AM

I get really good mileage on road trips, I keep the speed Peg with the cruise control at 55 and I can get around 35 miles per gallon but I have stage 2

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**Ian1006** · 01-30-2017 10:52 AM

Yeh display says 35 mpg tank average but I calculate more like 31-32mpg average at 80mph cruise control with two adults, baby, and lots of luggage with 40 psi in the tires on sport wheels. I have a tiptronic and it's stock and can usually fine ethanol free for same price as ethanol premium which helps but can't always find it either.
I bought this car for the gas mileage actually, my 3rd gen 4Runner before this car was averaging 14 mpg with only one size bigger tires and it was in immaculate running shape too.

**DougL** · 01-30-2017 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by BumblebVR6

Running BKR7EIX, gapped .018. APR 1+ tune w/ TT225 injectors. Getting consistent 350mi per tank and averaging 27.1mpg according to my gas cubby app.

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Same plugs I run on the A4 except at .028 - IMO the best choice for a 1.8T after trying many plugs on many 1.8t's

Originally Posted by BumblebVR6

Yes, 1.8T. The smaller the gap, the less chance of spark blowout from boost and high cylinder pressures. A friend of mine is a tuner and that's what he recommended. Granted, he works and tunes high power cars and this is probably overkill on mine, but it has been running great and mileage has stayed consistent after swapping from the PFR6Q's.

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.018 is still pretty low! I ran the BKR8EIX plugs on my TT making over 600awhp at a .024 gap with zero misfires or spark blowout. Even with 35+ PSI being thrown at it

I ran Denso IK24's on that car and within 10 minutes the car died. I had to swap plugs on the side of the road to get it going again.

**BumblebVR6** · 01-30-2017 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by DougL

Same plugs I run on the A4 except at .028 - IMO the best choice for a 1.8T after trying many plugs on many 1.8t's

.018 is still pretty low! I ran the BKR8EIX plugs on my TT making over 600awhp at a .024 gap with zero misfires or spark blowout. Even with 35+ PSI being thrown at it

Awesome. Good to know. Do you think running them at the small gap I am could have any negative effects in the long run? Maybe pull them back out and gap to .025 or so?

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**Detroiter** · 01-30-2017 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by BumblebVR6

Yes, 1.8T. The smaller the gap, the less chance of spark blowout from boost and high cylinder pressures. A friend of mine is a tuner and that's what he recommended. Granted, he works and tunes high power cars and this is probably overkill on mine, but it has been running great and mileage has stayed consistent after swapping from the PFR6Q's.

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I run the bkr7e copper plugs with my motoza 1+ e85 tune boosting to around 22psi and have never had a single instance of spark blowout and I gap my plugs to .052. I've noticed smoother idle and a noticeable boost in power according the butt dyno from gapping them further. Although I do have the R8 coil packs which are supposed to allow running wider gap. Not that your friend is wrong about the smaller gap helping with spark blowout but I'd recommend gapping yours further since you're only on apr 1+.

**BumblebVR6** · 01-30-2017 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I run the bkr7e copper plugs with my motoza 1+ e85 tune boosting to around 22psi and have never had a single instance of spark blowout and I gap my plugs to .052. I've noticed smoother idle and a noticeable boost in power according the butt dyno from gapping them further. Although I do have the R8 coil packs which are supposed to allow running wider gap. Not that your friend is wrong about the smaller gap helping with spark blowout but I'd recommend gapping yours further since you're only on apr 1+.

.052 on 7E's? Damn, that's seems risky. Especially with the life expectancy of those plugs. If I do change the gap on mine it will stay in the .02x range. Just to be safe. I'm doing a Motoza tune with some 550's soon and then installing my eliminator gt28rs later this year.

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**Ian1006** · 01-30-2017 11:43 AM

Any real benefit of running r8 coils vs fsi coils?

**eljay** · 01-30-2017 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by jacobsen

I get really good mileage on road trips, I keep the speed Peg with the cruise control at 55 and I can get around 35 miles per gallon but I have stage 2

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55mph is a good sweet spot for fuel economy. On our highways, I'm cruising at 70mph and with cruise on, unless the road is perfectly flat, the cruise control always adds/backs throttle and I keep jumping from vacuum to boost and back, which doesn't help, so I tend not use cruise control. :(

Sorry for OT. To keep it back on... I put in BKR7E gapped at 0.028" with no issues for the past 7k. I wonder when I should be changing them.

**Ian1006** · 01-30-2017 11:50 AM

My copper spark plug gap was still good after 5k miles but the edge of the electrode is starting to become rounded. Probably 10k max I think before there are misfire issues. I got a hard to start though after 5k ish miles which is why I am swapping to the denso iridiums

**DougL** · 01-30-2017 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by BumblebVR6

Awesome. Good to know. Do you think running them at the small gap I am could have any negative effects in the long run? Maybe pull them back out and gap to .025 or so?

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To be honest I don't know of any negative impact from running a smaller gapped plug. I run them at .028 because it was the common 1.8T chipped plug gap. I don't recall the exact spec but it was something like - you reduce gap by .02 for every 50+ torque/hp? Stock gap is .032

To comment on the coilpacks I think there was a huge datalogging thread that compared the 2.0T coils and 1.8T coils to find that ultimately it made no difference. I've been away from the 1.8T performance scene for a minute but last I knew guys were running trailblazer coilpacks with a conversion harness and plug wires, but only saw increased power if they actually programmed in new ignition dwell times-- which none of these generic flashes have.

**BumblebVR6** · 01-30-2017 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ian1006

I ordered some denso iridium ik20 spark plugs today to try out. Had a hard to start for the first time the other day and so I'll do plugs and fuel filter. Only happened once but I am over the miles these supposedly last already.
I hear the densos are gapped at .04 and need to be closed down to .032 which will be fun since I can't touch the electrode or I will ruin it. I was going to do double platinum but these had really good reviews and should last even longer than double plats.
There are a lot of really good reviews for these on the 1.8 on Audi world and vortex and a couple here as well from googling. Should get 40-50k miles out of them vs the 5-7k of these coppers.
Overall I think the copper performed well but the sharp edge being eroded and having to change them this often is not ideal especially since my coil wires are crispy and I don't want to mess with them that much because I don't want to replace the wiring just yet haha.
I think for those running e85 and high boost these would work well but being stock I am just going to go for longevity at the moment haha.

Just tap them on a vise or similar hard object to close the gap, and use a set of feeler gauges to verify gap. Do not use a gapping tool designed for copper plugs. Good luck!

**jacobsen** · 01-30-2017 01:46 PM

The iridium racing Denso are the ones to have 5708 IQ01-27... never any kind of ignition issue. When I switched from ik27 to racing version with r8 packs it was a noticeable difference right away. I got lucky I got a 4 pack for 15 bucks on eBay new hahaha things are pricey outright...

Here's a video I made about acid cleanng plugs. These are old ngk double plat that lasted hella long, these are the Apr suggested plugs. It really works. I notice the racing and ik versions don't coke up like standard style plugs. Even at heat range 27
https://youtu.be/O-Nv161_UEg

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**Spike00513** · 01-30-2017 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by EuroxS4

Copper spark plugs have a solid copper core, but the business end of the center electrode is actually a 2.5mm-diameter nickel alloy. That’s the largest diameter electrode of all the spark plug types. Remember, the smaller the diameter, the less voltage required to initiate the spark. Nickel alloy is also softer than either platinum or iridium, so the sharp firing edge you get right out of the box tends to wear out quickly. Despite those shortcomings, copper spark plugs are still a good choice for certain applications. Copper spark plugs are best for older (pre-‘80s) vehicles with low voltage distributor-based ignition systems. But don’t use copper spark plugs in high-energy distributor-less ignition systems (DIS) or coil-on-plug (COP) ignition systems. They’ll wear out too quickly.
There’s one exception to that advice. Some late-model high-performance engines were designed specifically for copper spark plugs. In those cases, copper spark plugs are considered to be high performance spark plugs. If your owner’s manual calls for copper spark plugs, don’t upgrade to platinum spark plugs or iridium spark plugs.

Good luck!!!

Is that why when you give them your car details at Autozone, copper isn't the first thing that pops up in their system, if at all?

I installed NGK Iridium somethings, which I believe OG and someone else use. Hopefully gap is correct. Car is stock. I think I picked the right heat range version.
MPG on the cluster stays around 25, not sure why. One thing I DO know needs doing, is the fuel filter.
Otherwise the car is stock (coilpacks, etc.)

The tank seems kinda small, not sure if it actually is, or something else is causing that impression.

Originally Posted by jacobsen

The Denso plugs are the best it's better for your cylinder head spark plug threads not to change them all the time, it's easy to chew them up that soft aluminum.

This is what I was scared of. Torquing threads is repeated stress, and it's aluminum.
NGK claims their threading is coated in some thin metal layer that breaks away when you loosen them, to act as anti-sieze, rather than super old iron plugs where you have to smear anti-sieze paste on it.
Maybe this means they're not the best to re-use over and over again, and if I pull them out, I guess I could spend a few bucks to put new ones back in their place. Unless I'm checking/reading them or something? Or a compression test? You get what I'm referring to.

Originally Posted by eljay

55mph is a good sweet spot for fuel economy. On our highways, I'm cruising at 70mph and with cruise on, unless the road is perfectly flat, the cruise control always adds/backs throttle and I keep jumping from vacuum to boost and back, which doesn't help, so I tend not use cruise control. :(

Same. I have to look and think ahead while I'm driving, at how the road goes. Chris Harris said this is how his Renault 2CV was, adding excitement, compared to his E9X M3 V8 (high-revving, N/A). That's right. I just compared the B6 to an old farm car that got patio furniture for seats. Maybe if Audi gave us TDI's, 2.7T's, or I5T's.

Maybe speed up first, or down-shift to have higher RPM and mechanical advantage helping me out. Maybe I'm to afraid to use the revs. I hear that with 1.8T, (when it's warmed up assume), it doesn't really matter where you rev, for economy.
Whereas in an S4 (V8), I bet you'll notice a difference.

02X GJW and this rev behavior seem to like it around 70. Maybe 01A 5MT differs.
But if you hit a hill like that, now you're struggling to get up, the car is bogging, and I assume trying to boost (I don't have a boost gauge)

I don't use cruise control in times like that. And when it's off, I can also feel what's going on through the pedal.
Like if my pedal input remains the same, but the speed and RPM starts to drop, this means the hill is bigger than I anticipated.
I guess momentum helps but it's still a heavy car.

This probably wouldn't happen in a Bentley, where you could probably take off from a stop sign in 4th gear.

**jacobsen** · 01-30-2017 02:09 PM

Permatex purple ceramic brake grease is my favorite grease. It's got a massive temperature range and stays greasy forever high or low temp.

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**jacobsen** · 01-30-2017 02:11 PM

Effective from -50°F to 3000°F (-46°C to 1649°C)

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**Ian1006** · 01-30-2017 02:30 PM

That purple grease is amazing, I use it on a lot of different cars slide pins for brakes etc. never used it on spark plug threads though, usually just use antisieze.

**Detroiter** · 02-01-2017 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by BumblebVR6

.052 on 7E's? Damn, that's seems risky. Especially with the life expectancy of those plugs. If I do change the gap on mine it will stay in the .02x range. Just to be safe. I'm doing a Motoza tune with some 550's soon and then installing my eliminator gt28rs later this year.

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I've been running them gapped to .052 for the past 15k miles or so and haven't ran into any issues so far. I do change them every oil other change though to be fair with them being copper cores and all. But every time I pull them out the gap has not changed one bit and the plugs still look great. With going to a gt28rs I would probably not gap them so wide with the extra boost and all.

**BumblebVR6** · 02-01-2017 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by Detroiter

I've been running them gapped to .052 for the past 15k miles or so and haven't ran into any issues so far. I do change them every oil other change though to be fair with them being copper cores and all. But every time I pull them out the gap has not changed one bit and the plugs still look great. With going to a gt28rs I would probably not gap them so wide with the extra boost and all.

I'd sure hope not for your sake. I've never heard of anyone running such a large gap on a turbo car. A lot of people run in the .02x - .03x range, but .052 is a wide gap.

**rocket1420** · 02-02-2017 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by DougL

To be honest I don't know of any negative impact from running a smaller gapped plug. I run them at .028 because it was the common 1.8T chipped plug gap. I don't recall the exact spec but it was something like - you reduce gap by .02 for every 50+ torque/hp? Stock gap is .032

To comment on the coilpacks I think there was a huge datalogging thread that compared the 2.0T coils and 1.8T coils to find that ultimately it made no difference. I've been away from the 1.8T performance scene for a minute but last I knew guys were running trailblazer coilpacks with a conversion harness and plug wires, but only saw increased power if they actually programmed in new ignition dwell times-- which none of these generic flashes have.

Too small of a gap and the plug will fire at a lower voltage, This can cause the air/fuel to not ignite.

**Detroiter** · 02-02-2017 07:29 AM

Originally Posted by BumblebVR6

I'd sure hope not for your sake. I've never heard of anyone running such a large gap on a turbo car. A lot of people run in the .02x - .03x range, but .052 is a wide gap.

Do some research before insinuating that something is wrong. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ks-on-the-1-8T

There are many people who have like I stated before with the upgraded coil packs run far wider than stock gaps. The 2.0t coil packs give a stronger spark than the stock 1.8t's. This allows you to gap the spark plug without spark blowout. If I have not once experienced spark blowout with my setup then how can it be something requiring a "I'd sure hope not for your sake." statement?

**BumblebVR6** · 02-02-2017 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Do some research before insinuating that something is wrong. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ks-on-the-1-8T

There are many people who have like I stated before with the upgraded coil packs run far wider than stock gaps. The 2.0t coil packs give a stronger spark than the stock 1.8t's. This allows you to gap the spark plug without spark blowout. If I have not once experienced spark blowout with my setup then how can it be something requiring a "I'd sure hope not for your sake." statement?

Here is a good article on gapping: http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/spark-plug-gap-settings/

**Detroiter** · 02-02-2017 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by BumblebVR6

Here is a good article on gapping: http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/spark-plug-gap-settings/

Your article confirms what I said about my experience with my larger gapped plugs.

"3. wide-gap risk: plug might not fire, or miss at high speeds;
4. wide-gap benefit: spark is strong for a clean burn."

For wide-gap risk: My plugs have never not fired or missed at any RPM all the way to redline.

Also the recommended gaps the article states are even according to itself "Conventional Gap Settings". This by no means is a end all be all of spark plug gapping. Even if these gaps were set rules there are always outliers to every rule. I trust the experienced members of this forum and my own experiences with the wider gap to not be causing any more harm to my engine than tuning it to run past its stock power levels.

**BumblebVR6** · 02-02-2017 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Detroiter

Your article confirms what I said about my experience with my larger gapped plugs.

"3. wide-gap risk: plug might not fire, or miss at high speeds;
4. wide-gap benefit: spark is strong for a clean burn."

For wide-gap risk: My plugs have never not fired or missed at any RPM all the way to redline.

Also the recommended gaps the article states are even according to itself "Conventional Gap Settings". This by no means is a end all be all of spark plug gapping. Even if these gaps were set rules there are always outliers to every rule. I trust the experienced members of this forum and my own experiences with the wider gap to not be causing any more harm to my engine than tuning it to run past its stock power levels.

But why take a risk of a plug not firing with a large gap, when you can gap them down to a gap that will fire every time and take less stress off the coil/ignition source? The FSI conversion is just something new for companies to make money on. If your ignition system (harness, coils, plugs) are in good order, you won't benefit much, if at all, from the FSI coils and larger gap. Have you seen any back to back dyno runs with the two different coils?