Engine ruined after APR Stage 1

[kcbar58]

Edit: I do not believe the tune caused the engine failure. Read cliffs and updates below for what thread is now about

Vehicle: 2013 Audi A4 FWD 2.0T
Mileage: 35,xxx

Last week, driving home, my whole car started shaking exiting the highway. When I accelerated the shaking worsened, but it was shaking even at idle. I have a thread about it here.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...d-acceleration

6 months before, I had the APR Stage 1 tune done on it.
Now that the engine was misfiring, still under manufacturer warranty, I took my car to a local APR dealer and had them flash my car back to stock so that I could take it into the dealership to work on under warranty. They told me they checked my engine and it turns out one of my pistons was destroyed and as a result one of the cylinder walls was scored, essentially meaning I would need a new engine. They removed the tune and sent me on my way to the dealership to get it fixed.

After dropping the car at the dealership, I learned additional bad news: Audi detected that an ECU tune was done despite flashing back to stock, and my warranty was voided. This was done via what’s called a TD1 detection, for those who don’t know. Audi voids nearly all engine warranties as soon as the vehicle is flagged with it.

I am now facing paying $6,000 out of pocket.

I called APR and despite their claims online that they are the only ones who truly flash back to stock and are undetectable, their rep claimed they had never done so. Quickly searching I just found this quote:

If we flash your ECU with stock software, it's stock software. We don't need to make stock software.... it was on your ECU when you bought the car and already has all of the RAS calculations in place. We just flash it back, just like the OEM.

Now, I can’t confirm that the APR flash caused my piston to explode, hence the way I worded the title. The dealership claims it did cause it. Either way the three things to consider before getting a 2013 A4 and getting it flashed are:

CLIFFNOTES:
1. Whatever the cause, my stage 1 2013 A4 had its engine ruined at only 35k miles, so consider that for what it’s worth
2. Despite flashing back to stock, there is always a chance the dealership will detect the tune anyway – in fact with the TD1 system, I would even expect them to nowadays, DESPITE APR’s claims
3. This will fall on your head. I’m anticipating spending $6,000 on a new (used) engine+install out of pocket. Everyone will point fingers at each other, so expect that it will be on you.

UPDATES:
-Posters almost unanimously believe it the engine failure was not caused by the APR tune
-However, several posters also suggested APR used fraudulent marketing claims as described in OP in the past and thus I should possibly look into taking legal action
-I have reached out to several others that this has happened to and have been contacted back
-Talking to lawyer later today (January 6)
-Not posting any new info in thread. Will update you all down the line

[bmoreS4]

I hate to say it but, you tuned a car that was under warranty. You knew the risks.

Never count on APR CS.

[kcbar58]

I hate to say it but, you tuned a car that was under warranty. You knew the risks.

Never count on APR CS.

100% not denying this. I do think making this known on Audizine (to those who don't know already) is important. I think APR should take responsibility since they did make those claims and Stage 1 was touted as very safe (if the APR tune did in fact cause this, as the dealership claims, then I definitely did NOT know the risks - maybe still my own fault for not performing due research), but at the same time I certainly accept the blame coming my way.

[AudiTechS4]

buy your self a set of forged pistons and rebuild the engine. the ring lands break and lose compression . not arp's fault i can promise you that . ive seen this many times
ive yet to see one with cylinder damage on a 13 or 14 from the ringland breaking

[kcbar58]

buy your self a set of forged pistons and rebuild the engine. the ring lands break and lose compression . not arp's fault i can promise you that . ive seen this many times
ive yet to see one with cylinder damage on a 13 or 14 from the ringland breaking

Would this make a big difference in price? Local shop and dealership both think the cost of fixing would be just as high as getting a new engine

edit - just called local shop and they said it was the ring land breaking and losing compression, but they also saw cylinder damage

[wabbit23]

Sucks your engine blew but Id just rebuild with aftermarket parts seeing that most of the time those cost less than OEM stuff. And as long as the shop you picked backs their work, you'll have a stronger motor than before as opposed to another factory motor that may do this again.

As far as the TD1, Ive been running Stage 2 for a little over two years now and while I was CPO I was still taking my car in for warranty work. In the past there was an ECU "reset" counter that was used to detect tunes. Now, from what I read on the MK7 forums, the system is much more complex and uses driving data from fuel trimmings, boost pressure and other variables to see if there was a tune even if it was removed.




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[AudiTechS4]

warranty engine replacement is about 10,000 warranty engine rebuild is 4,000
base engine warranty cost is 7100 . if your looking at used engines your looking at the same piston issue

also if they see cylinder damage the might see lines through a bore scope but that doesn't mean it wont pass the finger nail test(see if the groove catches on a finger nail)

[kcbar58]

warranty engine replacement is about 10,000 warranty engine rebuild is 4,000
base engine warranty cost is 7100 . if your looking at used engines your looking at the same piston issue

also if they see cylinder damage the might see lines through a bore scope but that doesn't mean it wont pass the finger nail test(see if the groove catches on a finger nail)

I was looking at used low mileage 2014 A4 engines. How common is this? I was told the 14s have less of these issues

I was quoted at ~$5-6k for replacing with a used engine. Audi dealer wants $15k for a new engine put in.

[Smellie]

I got my APR stage 1 @ 30k miles, Stage 2 @ 32k miles, APR K04 100oct at 40k miles.

I'm now at 48k miles and haven't had one issue except a bad PCV.


It really depends on the Audi dealer you go to that warrants your TD1. Some dealers will check how many times the car has been flashed (obviously if you have a few flashes on their, red flags will be raised). Other dealers will just check what file is on there, and if its stock they'll go ahead and do warranty work. However, if it's an engine failure and it's going to cost them $$ to fix it's not surprising that they'll look deeper into your ECU.


It's unfortunate but these are the risks to tuning a warrantied car, you can't really blame the tuner or the dealers

[AudiTechS4]

you have a 12 not a 13/14 with metal intake

[Smellie]

you have a 12 not a 13/14 with metal intake

Doesn't really change the fact that it's not APR's fault to blame for this

[MacFady]

Sounds like this is bad timing and that it was going to happen whether you had the flash or not, I mean it's only a stage 1 tune. As far as the quote in your OP, they are simply outlining that it is flashed back to stock software and not something they create to mimic stock software, not that it's "undetectable". As someone else noted, depending on what your in for they may simply just check what file is there, if it's stock fine, however for more extensive stuff ie: engines/tranny etc. they will delve a little deeper. Either way, total bummer.

[AudiTechS4]

didnt say it was , i actually stated otherwise. im saying the 12 does not have the piston ringland problem the 13/14 does which makes your statement about yours not having an issue invalid here.

also to clarify the above ring-land issue is on a small percent of the 13/14 engines. i think the whole year i did 2 personally and 1 of the 2 was td1. we had 4 td1's through the shop this year that went used engines.as a shop total im not sure exactly how many we had.

[pierreb]

didnt say it was , i actually stated otherwise. im saying the 12 does not have the piston ringland problem the 13/14 does which makes your statement about yours not having an issue invalid here.

Nevermind

[Spawne32]

Audi saying piston was destroyed is very vague, the actual damage to the piston would determine what the likely cause was. If you knew more that be better but i highly doubt this was tune related.

[b6onboost]

I've been on this forum long enough to know for a fact that APR use to claim their tunes were undetectable. From their website to AZ posts they claimed their software was undetectable by Audi so long as you had your shop re-flash you to the stock tune. From re-flashing to stock, to re-setting the flash counter, they claimed Audi's scan would not detect it. It was a major selling point for their tunes. So its complete BS for them to say they never said that. Now I understand its a game of cat and mouse, and that maybe Audi is currently better at detecting than APR is at concealing, but point is APR still sold a lot of tunes with an expressed (not implied) claim that they were not detectable. Now some of those customers are getting nailed. So even though the defect is almost certainly Audi's fault, and the APR tune likely had nothing to do with it, the reason you're looking at a $6k bill is because APR's product failed to do something they (once) claimed it would.

I called APR and despite their claims online that they are the only ones who truly flash back to stock and are undetectable, their rep claimed they had never done so.

[bmoreS4]

I've been on this forum long enough to know for a fact that APR use to claim their tunes were undetectable. From their website to AZ posts they claimed their software was undetectable by Audi so long as you had your shop re-flash you to the stock tune. From re-flashing to stock, to re-setting the flash counter, they claimed Audi's scan would not detect it. It was a major selling point for their tunes. So its complete BS for them to say they never said that. Now I understand its a game of cat and mouse, and that maybe Audi is currently better at detecting than APR is at concealing, but point is APR still sold a lot of tunes with an expressed (not implied) claim that they were not detectable. Now some of those customers are getting nailed. So even though the defect is almost certainly Audi's fault, and the APR tune likely had nothing to do with it, the reason you're looking at a $6k bill is because APR's product failed to do something they (once) claimed it would.

this 100%

[Spawne32]

I've been on this forum long enough to know for a fact that APR use to claim their tunes were undetectable. From their website to AZ posts they claimed their software was undetectable by Audi so long as you had your shop re-flash you to the stock tune. From re-flashing to stock, to re-setting the flash counter, they claimed Audi's scan would not detect it. It was a major selling point for their tunes. So its complete BS for them to say they never said that. Now I understand its a game of cat and mouse, and that maybe Audi is currently better at detecting than APR is at concealing, but point is APR still sold a lot of tunes with an expressed (not implied) claim that they were not detectable. Now some of those customers are getting nailed. So even though the defect is almost certainly Audi's fault, and the APR tune likely had nothing to do with it, the reason you're looking at a $6k bill is because APR's product failed to do something they (once) claimed it would.

Detecting modifications to the ECU is something that every car mfg has the capability of doing. Went through this alot with GM cars being tuned with HPtuners.

[JeriQo]

I would file a lawsuit against APR for false advertisement.
gather up a few more posters/owners who had been TD1'd due to their "undetectable"claims for a class action lawsuit.
They are going to bait and switch consumers if noone does anything about it.

i wouldnt take an APR reps word for it.

[jorte014]

I would file a lawsuit against APR for false advertisement.
gather up a few more posters/owners who had been TD1'd due to their "undetectable"claims for a class action lawsuit.
They are going to bait and switch consumers if noone does anything about it.

i wouldnt take an APR reps word for it.

Not a bad idea OP, might as well look everywhere for some restitution.

[kcbar58]

Audi saying piston was destroyed is very vague, the actual damage to the piston would determine what the likely cause was. If you knew more that be better but i highly doubt this was tune related.

I called my local shop and they confirmed that the ringland broke. It seems nearly unanimous now that the issue was going to happen regardless of tune. Updated the OP to express so.

I've been on this forum long enough to know for a fact that APR use to claim their tunes were undetectable. From their website to AZ posts they claimed their software was undetectable by Audi so long as you had your shop re-flash you to the stock tune. From re-flashing to stock, to re-setting the flash counter, they claimed Audi's scan would not detect it. It was a major selling point for their tunes. So its complete BS for them to say they never said that. Now I understand its a game of cat and mouse, and that maybe Audi is currently better at detecting than APR is at concealing, but point is APR still sold a lot of tunes with an expressed (not implied) claim that they were not detectable. Now some of those customers are getting nailed. So even though the defect is almost certainly Audi's fault, and the APR tune likely had nothing to do with it, the reason you're looking at a $6k bill is because APR's product failed to do something they (once) claimed it would.

I would file a lawsuit against APR for false advertisement.
gather up a few more posters/owners who had been TD1'd due to their "undetectable"claims for a class action lawsuit.
They are going to bait and switch consumers if noone does anything about it.

i wouldnt take an APR reps word for it.

I was curious about this as well... will look into it. Like I said, I accept the blame, but if I hadn't bought into the (non)fact that it would be undetectable, I would've certainly gone through more research and found a more mod-friendly dealership. There are Audi/VW dealerships a bit further from me (but within realistic towing distance) that are also APR dealers and I know they work with tuned cars under warranty.

[JeriQo]

i almost bit the APR Stage 1 until this thread.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...oided-Warranty

[Spawne32]

i think ill be going unitronic after this, not so much because i dont trust the software, more because of the lack of customer service.

[The Infiltrator]

i almost bit the APR Stage 1 until this thread.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...oided-Warranty

Because he's an idiot and left the tune on.

I just took my APR tune off and had the oil consumption issue fixed with no issues.

[The Infiltrator]

I've been on this forum long enough to know for a fact that APR use to claim their tunes were undetectable. From their website to AZ posts they claimed their software was undetectable by Audi so long as you had your shop re-flash you to the stock tune. From re-flashing to stock, to re-setting the flash counter, they claimed Audi's scan would not detect it. It was a major selling point for their tunes. So its complete BS for them to say they never said that. Now I understand its a game of cat and mouse, and that maybe Audi is currently better at detecting than APR is at concealing, but point is APR still sold a lot of tunes with an expressed (not implied) claim that they were not detectable. Now some of those customers are getting nailed. So even though the defect is almost certainly Audi's fault, and the APR tune likely had nothing to do with it, the reason you're looking at a $6k bill is because APR's product failed to do something they (once) claimed it would.

They did and I remember this too. I'm not sure if their coding was that good to hide the files or if it was a load of but the dealers can see this even when you take the tune off. My dealer saw it was loaded even though I took it off prior to my oil consumption tests and they were okay with it. It's really up to the dealer and how they want to deal with it even if the tune's off, you have good ones like I did and bad ones that TD1 that crap.

[JeriQo]

Because he's an idiot and left the tune on.

I just took my APR tune off and had the oil consumption issue fixed with no issues.

yep, OP of that thread did state he took it straight to dealership.
i even turn my carista mods to default just for extra safety. gotta turn that needle sweep off lol

[The Infiltrator]

yep, OP of that thread did state he took it straight to dealership.
i even turn my carista mods to default just for extra safety. gotta turn that needle sweep off lol

They don't care about VCDS mods at all, I asked this when I did my 3G retrofit and DIS retrofit. If they don't care about doing major stuff like that, I think you're good. lol

[smhagger]

didnt say it was , i actually stated otherwise. im saying the 12 does not have the piston ringland problem the 13/14 does which makes your statement about yours not having an issue invalid here.

also to clarify the above ring-land issue is on a small percent of the 13/14 engines. i think the whole year i did 2 personally and 1 of the 2 was td1. we had 4 td1's through the shop this year that went used engines.as a shop total im not sure exactly how many we had.

Hey guys, I'm a newbie here who just joined the forum and recently bought my first A4 (2014). I was reading up on mods and was thinking about going with an APR stage setup. After reading these comments (which, BTW, I really appreciate) I'm wondering: do I have a latent failure waiting to bite me at some point, or are the comments saying the 13/14 engines are 'better' than previous generations due to design revisions?

I'm still under factory warranty right now (but it expires, based on time) this summer. I only have 16k miles on the car as the previous owner drove the car very little (and over-maintained it). I commute a lot, but still won't put on more miles to expire the warranty prior to the 'age expiration' later this year.

Thanks in advance for the help with bringing me up to speed.

[Spawne32]

Hey guys, I'm a newbie here who just joined the forum and recently bought my first A4 (2014). I was reading up on mods and was thinking about going with an APR stage setup. After reading these comments (which, BTW, I really appreciate) I'm wondering: do I have a latent failure waiting to bite me at some point, or are the comments saying the 13/14 engines are 'better' than previous generations due to design revisions?

I'm still under factory warranty right now (but it expires, based on time) this summer. I only have 16k miles on the car as the previous owner drove the car very little (and over-maintained it). I commute a lot, but still won't put on more miles to expire the warranty prior to the 'age expiration' later this year.

Thanks in advance for the help with bringing me up to speed.

Nothing about these tunes that should cause a failure of the engine unless there is something already brewing. Only issues I've ever read about were issues with warranty claims.

[The Infiltrator]

Nothing about these tunes that should cause a failure of the engine unless there is something already brewing. Only issues I've ever read about were issues with warranty claims.

^ This!

I've had a tune on my car since just about day one with zero issues. These cars are terrible for pistons and rings though and your motor was probably screwed already, the added power being pushed didn't help though. You can always get a junkyard motor like some guys have for 2-3k.

[kcbar58]

Hey guys, I'm a newbie here who just joined the forum and recently bought my first A4 (2014). I was reading up on mods and was thinking about going with an APR stage setup. After reading these comments (which, BTW, I really appreciate) I'm wondering: do I have a latent failure waiting to bite me at some point, or are the comments saying the 13/14 engines are 'better' than previous generations due to design revisions?

I'm still under factory warranty right now (but it expires, based on time) this summer. I only have 16k miles on the car as the previous owner drove the car very little (and over-maintained it). I commute a lot, but still won't put on more miles to expire the warranty prior to the 'age expiration' later this year.

Thanks in advance for the help with bringing me up to speed.

Maybe I shouldn't be the one giving advice here. But I would try to first research if you have a dealership nearby that's also an APR dealer. That way if you do have a latent issue with the car regardless of tune, your warranty should still work for you as long as you take it there. Those dealerships are typically mod-friendly from my experience and from what I've read.

At the very least consider that APR customer service has done absolutely nothing to help me here. So if you do find yourself up shits creek, then good luck.

^ This!

I've had a tune on my car since just about day one with zero issues. These cars are terrible for pistons and rings though and your motor was probably screwed already, the added power being pushed didn't help though. You can always get a junkyard motor like some guys have for 2-3k.

That's the plan as of now! That or rebuild.

[bmoreS4]

Audi dealers that rep APR is a thing?

Never seen it................

[JeriQo]

OP, did shop charge you for the reflash?

[The Infiltrator]

That's the plan as of now! That or rebuild.

Yeah, sucks man but there's a lot of people here that can help you in the process with it if needed.

Audi dealers that rep APR is a thing?

Never seen it................

I had mine done at a VW dealership when APR came out with an update.

[Rocs]

I've been on this forum long enough to know for a fact that APR use to claim their tunes were undetectable. From their website to AZ posts they claimed their software was undetectable by Audi so long as you had your shop re-flash you to the stock tune. From re-flashing to stock, to re-setting the flash counter, they claimed Audi's scan would not detect it. It was a major selling point for their tunes. So its complete BS for them to say they never said that. Now I understand its a game of cat and mouse, and that maybe Audi is currently better at detecting than APR is at concealing, but point is APR still sold a lot of tunes with an expressed (not implied) claim that they were not detectable. Now some of those customers are getting nailed. So even though the defect is almost certainly Audi's fault, and the APR tune likely had nothing to do with it, the reason you're looking at a $6k bill is because APR's product failed to do something they (once) claimed it would.

I would file a lawsuit against APR for false advertisement.
gather up a few more posters/owners who had been TD1'd due to their "undetectable"claims for a class action lawsuit.
They are going to bait and switch consumers if noone does anything about it.

i wouldnt take an APR reps word for it.

Two great posts.

My car isn't under warranty anymore and I am still staying away from any tunes of any sort. The horror stories are not something I want or can afford to experience.

Best of luck OP

[Rocs]

Hey guys, I'm a newbie here who just joined the forum and recently bought my first A4 (2014). I was reading up on mods and was thinking about going with an APR stage setup. After reading these comments (which, BTW, I really appreciate) I'm wondering: do I have a latent failure waiting to bite me at some point, or are the comments saying the 13/14 engines are 'better' than previous generations due to design revisions?

I'm still under factory warranty right now (but it expires, based on time) this summer. I only have 16k miles on the car as the previous owner drove the car very little (and over-maintained it). I commute a lot, but still won't put on more miles to expire the warranty prior to the 'age expiration' later this year.

Thanks in advance for the help with bringing me up to speed.

I wouldn't tune. If you want a faster car, buy a faster car is how I see it. I would also look into an extended warranty if yours is running up with those miles.

[kcbar58]

Thank you - will keep updating OP.

Audi dealers that rep APR is a thing?

Never seen it................

Believe it or not. Sounds absurd, I know. Audi Naples in Florida is one, I've heard of a few others - they're listed on APR's website on their dealers tab. If I had gone to them first they wouldn't have flagged it TD1. I didn't think I'd get flagged regardless since I flashed back to stock but... lesson learned.

OP, did shop charge you for the reflash?

$50 to take off, would be an additional $50 for back on

[JeriQo]

Thank you - will keep updating OP.



Believe it or not. Sounds absurd, I know. Audi Naples in Florida is one, I've heard of a few others - they're listed on APR's website on their dealers tab



$50 to take off, would be an additional $50 for back on

you have a case.
time to look for a lawyer.

[kcbar58]

Thanks for all the help guys. Really appreciate it. I'll keep updating and following through on this.

you have a case.
time to look for a lawyer.

Excellent point. I didn't consider that before. Yeah, you would think since I paid to "flash back to stock" it would actually work

[Hard-Knocks]

Thank you so much for sharing this. Have been considering APR Stage 1 for my S3 but wanted to wait until my warranty expired. However, if they do not honor their warranties/claims, will need to look elsewhere.

Hope you get some help with the expense of the repairs and get the car running again.


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