Prepping my B5 for the track. Coilovers and....?

**m47thew** · 05-10-2016 01:29 PM

This summer I'm preparing (my vehicle and wallet) for some suspension upgrades. Looking for input on what upgrades you recommend. Right now my car has GIAC xplus chip and full turbo back exhaust. Within the next year or so I am wanting to go full stage 3. I'm itching to get out to the track here in Edmonton (Castrol raceway) but wanted to tune things up first..

car is at 137,000 km (85,000 miles) and all the suspension components seemed to be in good condition when i last checked a couple weeks ago (nothing rattling, loose, squeaking, shaking, etc...)

Right now I'm pretty sold on the KW V3's for a couple reasons but mainly because adjustability will allow me to get aggressive on the track and then tone it down when I take road trips or cruise around town, and being able to adjust ride height back up come winter is huge for Canada. Furthermore I found a supplier in Canada (Montreal) with a decent price.

With this I'm looking to throw in a rear sway bar and subframe reinforcement... possibly 034?

What have you guys done to make yours a little more track worthy?

Any and all help is appreciated.

**MikeyB3** · 05-10-2016 01:35 PM

Brakes. Good Brakes. Good brake fluid. If you're headed to the track, just drive the car. It's never "track ready" til you've taken it there a couple times, and you dont need a great suspension to drive it. You do, however, need good brakes, fluids (including oil) and tires.

**CJ_** · 05-10-2016 01:37 PM

Just out of curiosity, how well do the stock brakes perform at the track? Considering that you have good pads/rotors/lines/fluid.

**MikeyB3** · 05-10-2016 01:42 PM

Stock brakes work fine. You need pads that can take the heat. Otherwise you will have massive brake fade and then not be able to stop. AMHIK. You need fluid that wont boil.

**redline380** · 05-10-2016 01:44 PM

Rear sway. One of the best upgrades for the money.

Although my car is only an A4, it makes turns much more enjoyable. And I can even break the tires loose

**m47thew** · 05-10-2016 02:11 PM

Replacing all pads and rotors this coming week and flushing the brake fluid. Also got some stainless lines to replace the stock rubber ones.

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**MacDaddy** · 05-10-2016 02:11 PM

Just a chrome oil filter

**sCeRaXn** · 05-10-2016 02:15 PM

Drag strip or road course?If it's the drag strip then there really isn't much that you have to do. Other than a good tune-up, you can take it how it sits.

For a road course you'll want good brake pads and fluid, tires, oil, and whatever safety equipment the track/event organizers require you to have. Pay attention to how your car does on the track and then fix whatever needed to make it more reliable for multiple lapping sessions. Don't worry about mods for now. Save that money for consumables like pads, tires, oil, and gas. Add all of that stuff on top of the actual event costs and it gets expensive quickly.

**ElSabio182** · 05-10-2016 02:32 PM

+1 on the brake pads. You WILL cook your stock brake pads...I did a HPDE day on stock pads (or maybe EBC Greens, which are stock-equivalent, I forget), and the pads were literally burnt white like a charcoal briquette. Completely toast, had to throw them out. Granted, I was being pretty hard on them, and it was a very hilly course...so MAAAYBE you could get away with stock pads if you took it easy, but keep in mind these are heavy-ass cars. (EDIT: that was on my A4...your experience may vary). ALSO: fresh brake fluid too while you're at it, some performance-oriented fluid isn't a bad idea (it will just absorb water more quickly than stock fluid, thus requiring you to bleed it at more frequent intervals). Keeping your actual stock brake setup (rotors, calipers) is fine. Hawks, Padgids, EBC Yellows, etc are places to start looking around for pads. Figure out if you want a set of "track-day only" pads, and go from there.

Agreed with redline...a rear sway bar is great bang for the buck. You will absolutely feel it when getting on your first on-ramp loop after installation. The 034 bracket can be a mild pain in the ass to install one of the bolts on my A4 (not sure about S4 configurations) but it's a very good setup. I run it on mine.

And the single biggest thing that affects the performance of your car on the track? Yup...tires. Choose wisely.

As others have said, no need to go crazy on the mods just yet. Get good driving a stock car, then beef it up in accordance with your ability (and budget).

**m47thew** · 05-10-2016 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by MikeyB3

Stock brakes work fine. You need pads that can take the heat. Otherwise you will have massive brake fade and then not be able to stop. AMHIK. You need fluid that wont boil.

What kind of fluid boils? Old fluid? A low quality fluid?

I will be flushing my lines and putting in new fluid (stop tech DOT 4 STR 600) as i replace my brake components.

Originally Posted by sCeRaXn

Drag strip or road course?If it's the drag strip then there really isn't much that you have to do. Other than a good tune-up, you can take it how it sits.

For a road course you'll want good brake pads and fluid, tires, oil, and whatever safety equipment the track/event organizers require you to have. Pay attention to how your car does on the track and then fix whatever needed to make it more reliable for multiple lapping sessions. Don't worry about mods for now. Save that money for consumables like pads, tires, oil, and gas. Add all of that stuff on top of the actual event costs and it gets expensive quickly.

Yeah that makes sense. this is the course here http://www.trackjunkies.ca/castrol/ and they require a brake fluid thats no more than 6 months old and that you have at least 50% left of your pads. Everything else seems to be standard (ie car in good working condition)

**christianb5s4** · 05-10-2016 03:08 PM

I'd do these things for a basic setup, and besides brakes DO NOT forget to add rear sway bar reinforcements.

- Pads and fluid
- Coilovers (H&R, KW, Bilstein, etc)
- Rear sway bar & reinforcement brackets

- Depending on the track and ambient temperature, consider an oil cooler

**m47thew** · 05-10-2016 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by christianb5s4

I'd do these things for a basic setup, and besides brakes DO NOT forget to add rear sway bar reinforcements.

- Pads and fluid
- Coilovers (H&R, KW, Bilstein, etc)
- Rear sway bar & reinforcement brackets

- Depending on the track and ambient temperature, consider an oil cooler

Yeah reinforcements are a must, heard of a lot of cracked subframes while doing my research

For ambient temp do you mean like 100+? we dont see that often in Canada, we might get 7-10 days in the whole summer that are in the 90s range but a hot day here is like 80-90.

**vavJETTAw36** · 05-10-2016 07:09 PM

Read some interesting info on myaudis4 blog regarding reinforcement bars. He was able to corner better without them.

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**sherbet** · 05-10-2016 07:46 PM

I would do a RSB + Reinforcements before I did coilovers. I drove a stock S4 with 034 RSB and then immediately got into an S4 with coil overs and no RSB....the car with stock suspension and 034 RSB felt a lot lighter on its feet, turn in is way more crisp, you can even swing the tail out if you get aggressive with it.

034 RSB is a great fuckin mod.

**MikeyB3** · 05-11-2016 07:36 AM

Originally Posted by m47thew

What kind of fluid boils? Old fluid? A low quality fluid?

I will be flushing my lines and putting in new fluid (stop tech DOT 4 STR 600) as i replace my brake components.

Then you'll be fine, I think. This article explains it better than I would've. http://tiltonracing.com/brake-fluid-...e-and-go-fast/

I dont think a rear sway is completely necessary, but will definitely keep that body roll to a minimum. There's a laundry list of things you could do really, none of which have anything to do with power. If you're on stock K03s, be sure to warm them up and cool down or you will have the turbo lady pounding your door down. (This is exactly what happened to me)

Something that might help you out with this is a lower temp sensor for the after-run system if you dont have it already.

021 919 369 - Thermo-switch
N 903 168 02 - O-ring

If you search around, you might be able to find it for <30$, but doing your cool down and having this will definitely help those turbos out. My after-run kicks in nearly all the time.

**m47thew** · 05-11-2016 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by MikeyB3

Then you'll be fine, I think. This article explains it better than I would've. http://tiltonracing.com/brake-fluid-...e-and-go-fast/

I dont think a rear sway is completely necessary, but will definitely keep that body roll to a minimum. There's a laundry list of things you could do really, none of which have anything to do with power. If you're on stock K03s, be sure to warm them up and cool down or you will have the turbo lady pounding your door down. (This is exactly what happened to me)

Something that might help you out with this is a lower temp sensor for the after-run system if you dont have it already.

021 919 369 - Thermo-switch
N 903 168 02 - O-ring

If you search around, you might be able to find it for <30$, but doing your cool down and having this will definitely help those turbos out. My after-run kicks in nearly all the time.

That's a great link thanks.

I just did some reading on that part and i was wondering if you or anyone knows whether or not the facelifted (2001.5) was equipped with the lower temp switch. Seems that my after run system always goes when I shut down. (Even if not up to temp). I may just pick up this part anyways because I need to return a starter core to a local shop.

For cooling down the turbos, just run the car at idle for 5-10 mins after driving / boosting it hard??

I know I ALWAYS let my car warm up and make sure that I get down to a stable idle rev before I drive. I also make sure that I'm up to temp before I redline or go into high boost.

This is all good info thanks for everyone who has given their $0.02 on this thread!

**dannyn424** · 05-11-2016 11:08 AM

i think meth might help with keeping everything cool on those hot track days

**MikeyB3** · 05-11-2016 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by m47thew

That's a great link thanks.

I just did some reading on that part and i was wondering if you or anyone knows whether or not the facelifted (2001.5) was equipped with the lower temp switch. Seems that my after run system always goes when I shut down. (Even if not up to temp). I may just pick up this part anyways because I need to return a starter core to a local shop.

For cooling down the turbos, just run the car at idle for 5-10 mins after driving / boosting it hard??

I know I ALWAYS let my car warm up and make sure that I get down to a stable idle rev before I drive. I also make sure that I'm up to temp before I redline or go into high boost.

This is all good info thanks for everyone who has given their $0.02 on this thread!

Yeah I did the same thing, but at the track, you're going to be at temps way higher than normal street. Just be mindful of that and you'll be good.

**m47thew** · 07-25-2016 09:02 PM

Ok so its been a while. Unfortunately I havent been able to get to the track yet this summer due to work. However I have since bought a truck as a DD and have had time to get some things done on the car. Brakes were done about 2 months ago, I picked up the after run thermo switch and my KW V3's just came in from Germany!

I figured while the car is up and suspension is out I might as well do a front end refresh with 034 control arm kit, strut mounts, heavy duty tie rod ends and front sway bar end links. Everything looked to be in great shape when the brakes were done but I would rather do it all now instead of waiting for something to fail or running into trouble through my coilover install.

I've decided against the rear sway bar for now as I would like to get comfortable with the new set-up before throwing a bunch of oversteer at the car (doesnt seem like it would instill confidence?)

Before I place my order do you guys have any other recommendations or advice?

**m47thew** · 07-25-2016 09:08 PM

Also had paint detailed to add 10 HP

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**christianb5s4** · 07-26-2016 09:09 AM

Paint looks beautiful, looks like you've got a nice setup going!

**redline380** · 07-26-2016 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by m47thew

I've decided against the rear sway bar for now as I would like to get comfortable with the new set-up before throwing a bunch of oversteer at the car (doesnt seem like it would instill confidence?)

LOL if you can get a B5 to oversteer, let me know how. I'd love to make it happen.

Believe me, you want sways.

**m47thew** · 07-26-2016 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by redline380

LOL if you can get a B5 to oversteer, let me know how. I'd love to make it happen.

Believe me, you want sways.

Yeah the more I read the more I'm leaning back to it. Sway bar it is.

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**james 408** · 07-28-2016 05:18 AM

2nd what's already been said. I'd add that brake pad and tire choice will greatly depend on your style and ability as well. These are likely the 2 things that will overcook first, although maybe not until you get some more time under your belt at the track. Full track pads are required as you get faster, most of the 'hybrid' or 'performance' stuff is total garbage.

Also get some seat time somewhere safe, and add some camber to your front end if you've got adjustable control arms. can do 1-2 addional psi of pressure on the front if not done already (35 front 34 rear would be a good starting point). Also if you're doing coils, maybe add 1/4" of rake (front lower than rear). You can also play with a bit of toe out in the rear (or even the front a touch). Raising rear spring rate may be preferable to a sway bar if you haven't thrown your coils on already (same effect, just a different way of doing it).

Most s4s will not be scary oversteer even with an aggressive sway and everything else under the sun done to it. However, i've had intermediate drivers spin the car due to braking as a result of lift-off oversteer rather than actually using the gas to pull out of it. So if you're not very experienced with this, then yeah, you can hold off on the sway bar til you get a better feel for things. But the car will understeer dramatically in most situations without it (and even with it in many situations until you sort out diffs, and everything else).

**m47thew** · 07-28-2016 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by james 408

2nd what's already been said. I'd add that brake pad and tire choice will greatly depend on your style and ability as well. These are likely the 2 things that will overcook first, although maybe not until you get some more time under your belt at the track. Full track pads are required as you get faster, most of the 'hybrid' or 'performance' stuff is total garbage.

Also get some seat time somewhere safe, and add some camber to your front end if you've got adjustable control arms. can do 1-2 addional psi of pressure on the front if not done already (35 front 34 rear would be a good starting point). Also if you're doing coils, maybe add 1/4" of rake (front lower than rear). You can also play with a bit of toe out in the rear (or even the front a touch). Raising rear spring rate may be preferable to a sway bar if you haven't thrown your coils on already (same effect, just a different way of doing it).

Most s4s will not be scary oversteer even with an aggressive sway and everything else under the sun done to it. However, i've had intermediate drivers spin the car due to braking as a result of lift-off oversteer rather than actually using the gas to pull out of it. So if you're not very experienced with this, then yeah, you can hold off on the sway bar til you get a better feel for things. But the car will understeer dramatically in most situations without it (and even with it in many situations until you sort out diffs, and everything else).

Thanks James, I've read some of your posts in other threads and it's always very informative and to the point. Appreciate the non bullshit approach.

KW V3 Coilovers are currently in my garage and I'm just trying to finalize my decision on supporting components. I did upgrade my brakes earlier this year, however it wasn't to a full blown BBK, just better pads, rotors and stainless lines. The control arms I'm looking at aren't adjustable but I suppose it's always an option... For a novice driver is it going to make a big difference? Or is it just going to be better tire wear and grip through the rolling in of corners?

And yes I run 36 front, 34 rear.

I'm always 100% brake before the turn and power through it. I know the dangers of having weight shift forward, especially in a RWD so it's always been a habit of mine to NEVER brake in the corner and to power through and keep that grip where you need it.

I've decided on the RSB, and supporting reinforcements. Along with the other components I have listed. And yes somewhere further down the line after I go stage 3 I will want a beefed up rear end with likely a 4:1 center diff. But for now I wanted brakes and suspension to be solid and predictable. Just a matter of getting lots of seat time and knowing how the car handles before I give it car more power or make any other major changes.

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**james 408** · 07-28-2016 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by m47thew

... For a novice driver is it going to make a big difference? Or is it just going to be better tire wear and grip through the rolling in of corners?

Yes, exactly. When cornering the tire and suspension roll, the camber setting keeps the contact patch flatter (otherwise your outside tire only is contacting near the outside shoulder). So it's both wear, and grip. Also changes the balance of the car; if you put more camber up front than in the rear, it reduces understeer. For a full dedicated track car, neg 3 degrees front, neg 1.5 degrees rear is a good ballpark -- but you wouldn't use this setting for commuting or you'd destroy the inside of your tires pretty quick.

you'd be okay without it for a single 20 minute session, maybe even a full track day if you're in the hybrid range and aren't going full-tilt. But if you are pushing the car hard or for much longer, you'll be able to see it shredding the outside shoulder. I've seen tires roll over to the lettering on the hybrid setup and destroyed the shoulders within a couple hours -- but that's pushing it pretty hard and not letting the tires cool.

street camber: F -1 Rear -.5
hybrid: F -2 Rear -1
track: F -3 Rear -1.5

**m47thew** · 07-28-2016 03:07 PM

the track I'll be going to runs 20 min sessions, with 3 sessions per day. Where I'm at in Canada isn't overly hot so I shouldn't be cooking the tires right away. Furthermore I just bought a truck for a daily to save my car this winter. So aside from the occasional spirited drive or road trip I don't commute much with the S4 anymore. For the price difference I'm thinking its definitely worth it to have the adjustable control arms for tweaking my setup further down the road.

EDIT: Also looking at another set of rims/tires exclusively for track use, so if I'm swapping those every time would it be difficult to get in there and adjust camber too?

**m47thew** · 07-28-2016 03:25 PM

Wow that tire got destroyed

**james 408** · 07-28-2016 03:31 PM

Some alignment shops offer an alignment program (wheel works think its $150 for all you can eat for the life of the car). That's the route I go, just gotta hold their hand a bit to make sure they do the job right. It's not super difficult to adjust, but takes some guess/check work. Not really something you can do at home easily, but you might be able to mark the threads if you wanted to swap it back and forth, or do a manual alignment using the string/tape measure method, but I just paid for the lifetime alignments and I guarantee they're losing money on it as of 5 alignments ago.

**m47thew** · 07-28-2016 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by james 408

Some alignment shops offer an alignment program (wheel works think its $150 for all you can eat for the life of the car). That's the route I go, just gotta hold their hand a bit to make sure they do the job right. It's not super difficult to adjust, but takes some guess/check work. Not really something you can do at home easily, but you might be able to mark the threads if you wanted to swap it back and forth, or do a manual alignment using the string/tape measure method, but I just paid for the lifetime alignments and I guarantee they're losing money on it as of 5 alignments ago.

that's smart, something i should look into.. thanks again for you help. looks like I'll be going adjustable!