Dead 2011 A4?

[meburke4]

I hope someone else has dealt with this one and could offer some guidance. I have 2011 A4, 2.0 engine, 75k miles. Died last Friday. Drove home from work Thursday night with no issue- would not start at all the next morning. Took it to dealer for service- I'd prepaid the 75k service, and thought that was a good idea. After five hours of looking around, they think the problem is with the timing chain...but they need more time at $140/hour to look. They initially thought engine was blown, but they've looked inside the engine with a small camera and it looks okay. I had all service on car to this point done at dealer. I have had an issue, since day one of owning the car, of 'losing' oil. Need to top off oil-quart each time-two times between oil changes. Oh, and I just paid off the car loan last month.

Did some looking online, and saw some discussions about problems with Audi timing chains between 75k and 100k miles- to the effect that some of the parts used with the chains are cheap and cause the timing chain to fail. Plus accessing the chain means taking the engine out. Also saw class action settlement on losing oil in 2009-2012 A4s. Seems like a manufacturing defect combined with a design defect- and something Audi already knows about. Anyone else had a similar failure? I'm not keen on an $8k repair, and this seems like something Audi should make right.

[Mina08]

when you say its died do you mean it would not start, no starter power turning the engine? There is loads of info on this site with regard to the oil consumption problem.

[Project Quattro]

For starters, welcome to AZ. Sorry for the crappy situation that brought you here.

Yes, there is a class action suit going on for oil consumption, and if your car is burning half as much oil as you mentioned above you're definitely eligible for an engine rebuild including a new set of pistons and rings. I went through that with my previous B8, although I was still under warranty. There's a stickied thread with like a hundred pages to wade through, but essentially Audi has been standing behind their product and covering the repair even for cars that are out of warranty. The only issue for you is that it's a 2 stage process, they replace a PCV and make you drive ~700 miles to confirm how much it's burning. That may be difficult with a nonfunctional motor and you might have to fight them a bit to skip that part (stage 1) and jump straight to stage 2.

While they're doing stage 2, since early 2014 they started replacing some small component in the timing chain tensioner/guide system free of charge while the engine is apart and without mentioning it. Apparently they're prone to failure and this may be your issue. In any case it's a known issue and you have a case for them to cover it, even out of warranty. Especially if all of your maintenance and repair work has been done at Audi and can be checked.

Edit:
Oil consumption thread:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=383430

Here is the thread about the tensioner:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=640315

And here is another one with info about another tensioner that failed within the last month and at similar mileage:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=673371

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[meburke4]

Power to turn engine but would not catch.

[meburke4]

Many thanks. Did some more reading online. Dealer said engine compression was an issue. Seems like the oil consumption issue put stress on timing chain system, at least to me. I'll mention 'class action settlement' to the dealer

[meburke4]

Dealer now says that the timing chain is 'stretched' which is not at all related to, or caused by, the oil issue. In other words, per the dealer, the class action settlement is n/a for me. I've been a lawyer for almost 20 years, so I'll read through the settlement paperwork. At the very least, my situation seems related to the known defects in both the timing chain assembly/related parts and the placement of the chain where you have to take out the engine to repair the chain. There should be a class action on this, too...anyone interested? An Audi engine should not fail at 75k miles.

[meburke4]

Now the dealer wants another 8 hours of time to see what is wrong--whether its the chain or a cylinder head. So, now about thirteen hours of total time to diagnose the problem. Unacceptable.

[nerv81]

I would suggest contacting Aud of America to open a case and kindly explain to them what happened. They may be able to help.

[kaz02a4]

Sorry to hear that this is such a pain for you. Please keep us posted; I'm curious to see if it is in fact the tensioner. That's a bit sneaky of Audi to swap out the chain tensioner/guide for free while the engine is out. It leaves the rest of us (who may not have oil consumption issues) dead in the water, if it is in fact the cause.

Important Edit: does anyone know when the newest revision of the tensioner (closed off from oil pressure, now only uses a hydraulic and spring mechanism) was introduced on the 2.0T engine?

[sadj2885]

Had similar experience 2 months ago. Car would crank but wouldnt start. Timing tensioner failed which caused the chain to jump and it was a disaster. Dealer needed to replace the pistons, valves, etc. The dealer quoted me at 7500 to repair, I'm not sure why they are taking so long to diagnose yours, my dealer told me what it was soon after they looked at it.

Call Audi of America and open a case. I had to go back and forth with them for 2 weeks or so but in the end they decided to cover it fully. Be prepared to submit all your service records and hope for the best. You can read my post to get more details. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...but-wont-start

[meburke4]

Had similar experience 2 months ago. Car would crank but wouldnt start. Timing tensioner failed which caused the chain to jump and it was a disaster. Dealer needed to replace the pistons, valves, etc. The dealer quoted me at 7500 to repair, I'm not sure why they are taking so long to diagnose yours, my dealer told me what it was soon after they looked at it.

Call Audi of America and open a case. I had to go back and forth with them for 2 weeks or so but in the end they decided to cover it fully. Be prepared to submit all your service records and hope for the best. You can read my post to get more details. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...but-wont-start

Thanks for this- I've opened a case with Audi of America, and hope they will do the right thing. I had all my services, so far, done at the dealer so the records are easily accessible. I guess I just don't trust the dealer. They have mostly new SAs and I'm getting the sense that I'd be paying to train them. Pulling the engine just doesn't seem like a common diagnostic practice, unless there is an indication that it should be pulled. I'd have thought that a diagnostic code would have told them about the timing issue, and that a visible inspection--even an hour or so--would reveal any problems with the cylinder. Dealer said that 'Audi' needs to determine the root cause of the problem before making a decision re: covering it, which seems to me to be bit of a setup for 'we found the problem, it's your fault, have a nice day.' I'm just not in the mood to flush more money down this A4 toilet.

[audiAYYY4]

I'm going to dig up the receipt for my stage 2 work. I hope they did the tensioner and timing chain. I fear not, cause they didn't mention anything.

[meburke4]

The latest update- cracked cylinder head, probably (possibly) due to failure of the timing chain tensioner. Don't yet know why tensioner failed--failure might not be best word--the timing chain is stretched (as one would expect at 75k miles) hence the issue. So, they'd need to replace the cylinder head, related parts, timing chain, etc. Dealer quoted me $9k for the repair, and they are going to work with Audi of America to see what Audi can do. Just a bit shocked that I shelled out for an Audi and this is where I am at 75k miles.

[Elliott]

The latest update- cracked cylinder head, probably (possibly) due to failure of the timing chain tensioner. Don't yet know why tensioner failed--failure might not be best word--the timing chain is stretched (as one would expect at 75k miles) hence the issue. So, they'd need to replace the cylinder head, related parts, timing chain, etc. Dealer quoted me $9k for the repair, and they are going to work with Audi of America to see what Audi can do. Just a bit shocked that I shelled out for an Audi and this is where I am at 75k miles.

That's absurd. I know one of the SA's at Audi of Arlington that are quite reasonable if you want me to PM you the info.

[meburke4]

That's absurd. I know one of the SA's at Audi of Arlington that are quite reasonable if you want me to PM you the info.

Yes, please. I'm new to this board, what's be best way to PM? I'm holding out hope that Audi will step up here--Audi of America. If they do, I'm inclined to leave it at Chantilly for the fix. I know not everyone will agree with this, and I know the car is not under warranty anymore, but this should not be an issue at 75k. This is my first Audi--my previous car went 200k miles before hitting some major issues. Just got the Audi paid off, too. I was hoping to get 150k+ miles out of the A4. Blue book on the car is $12k or so, in good condition. This type of repair just doesn't make any kind of economic sense. But then again, I do need a car to get to work.

[kaz02a4]

Yes, please. I'm new to this board, what's be best way to PM? I'm holding out hope that Audi will step up here--Audi of America. If they do, I'm inclined to leave it at Chantilly for the fix. I know not everyone will agree with this, and I know the car is not under warranty anymore, but this should not be an issue at 75k. This is my first Audi--my previous car went 200k miles before hitting some major issues. Just got the Audi paid off, too. I was hoping to get 150k+ miles out of the A4. Blue book on the car is $12k or so, in good condition. This type of repair just doesn't make any kind of economic sense. But then again, I do need a car to get to work.

Sorry to hear that. It's a pain what kind of prices they will charge for this work. I'd hope that, because it's been listed as a "lifetime" part, that AoA will be able to take care of you. A failure like this is catastrophic, and unacceptable at 75k miles. The chain is on the back of the engine, correct? It's not like timing belts on prior gen 2.0T or 1.8T, where you can access them by putting the car into the service position.

This may be a stupid question, but let's say that the blue book on the car was $8k, and you were quoted $9k for the fix. Would insurance total the car out in an event like this?

[meburke4]

Sorry to hear that. It's a pain what kind of prices they will charge for this work. I'd hope that, because it's been listed as a "lifetime" part, that AoA will be able to take care of you. A failure like this is catastrophic, and unacceptable at 75k miles. The chain is on the back of the engine, correct? It's not like timing belts on prior gen 2.0T or 1.8T, where you can access them by putting the car into the service position.

This may be a stupid question, but let's say that the blue book on the car was $8k, and you were quoted $9k for the fix. Would insurance total the car out in an event like this?

That's my hope, too. I've had to replace timing belts on some of my previous cars- but that was expected. Those are like break pads in the sense that they wear out and replacement is expected. I've seen enough on these boards, and other places, to conclude that the timing chain issue is a 'real' issue. It may not rise to the level of Audi considering a recall or having a class action against it (although they did deny that there was any oil consumption issue...until they settled the class action) but I'm not the only one to have experienced this. I hope that Audi holds true to form, at least as indicated on some posts here and elsewhere, and covers the repair. It is catastrophic and its an expense I can't bear now. If Audi won't do the right thing, I guess I'll have t scrap the car and see if I can take any kind of casualty loss on my taxes. And find a new way to get to work.

I did ask my insurance company about coverage. Since my insurance is collision, etc., required by the state, it doesn't cover mechanical. There are extended warranties available through the insurance company and otherwise but I don't have that. I didn't specifically ask about the 'totaled' question, but I suspect that the answer would be that if the loss is due to mechanical failure, it's not covered under the auto policy.

One other item- this should be no surprise, but Audi does look at these pages. Apparently Audi of America 'discussed' some issues with the dealer- Audi of Chantilly- that were under the thread 'Audi of Chantilly Officially Sucks.' I ranted a bit on that thread- not as base as some others- and the SA mentioned to me this evening that AoA mentioned it to the dealer. A bit odd, to be sure, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who I am, but still...odd. I clearly think the mechanical thing is AoA's fault/issue, and I appreciate Chantilly reaching out to AoA, but I think the communications still need improving.

[kaz02a4]

That's my hope, too. I've had to replace timing belts on some of my previous cars- but that was expected. Those are like break pads in the sense that they wear out and replacement is expected. I've seen enough on these boards, and other places, to conclude that the timing chain issue is a 'real' issue. It may not rise to the level of Audi considering a recall or having a class action against it (although they did deny that there was any oil consumption issue...until they settled the class action) but I'm not the only one to have experienced this. I hope that Audi holds true to form, at least as indicated on some posts here and elsewhere, and covers the repair. It is catastrophic and its an expense I can't bear now. If Audi won't do the right thing, I guess I'll have t scrap the car and see if I can take any kind of casualty loss on my taxes. And find a new way to get to work.

I did ask my insurance company about coverage. Since my insurance is collision, etc., required by the state, it doesn't cover mechanical. There are extended warranties available through the insurance company and otherwise but I don't have that. I didn't specifically ask about the 'totaled' question, but I suspect that the answer would be that if the loss is due to mechanical failure, it's not covered under the auto policy.

One other item- this should be no surprise, but Audi does look at these pages. Apparently Audi of America 'discussed' some issues with the dealer- Audi of Chantilly- that were under the thread 'Audi of Chantilly Officially Sucks.' I ranted a bit on that thread- not as base as some others- and the SA mentioned to me this evening that AoA mentioned it to the dealer. A bit odd, to be sure, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who I am, but still...odd. I clearly think the mechanical thing is AoA's fault/issue, and I appreciate Chantilly reaching out to AoA, but I think the communications still need improving.

Yeah it goes almost without saying that we live in a day and age where you can't hide on the internet. Sooner or later, a SA may jump on a forum and see that so-and-so went stage 1, and is trying to get warranty work done and is "worried" about getting flagged. Boom. Before he even plugs in the computer to the OBDII port, he has an admission that the car is modified.

Obviously, that's not your case, but if you're looking for AoA or a dealer to foot the bill, make sure you don't have any post skeletons in your closet. When the line of communication is open, clear, and concise, a forum can be a valuable tool to get the job done (or at least, get attention higher up). Keep us posted on how this turns out. I'm very curious to see what the dealer and AoA gives you.

[SWONER]

Seems to me the engine is toast. Your most economical option at this point is to find a 2011+ 2.0t from ebay (plentiful) and pay a private shop to install. I dont think it would cost half of what the dealer is quoting you.

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[meburke4]

Yeah it goes almost without saying that we live in a day and age where you can't hide on the internet. Sooner or later, a SA may jump on a forum and see that so-and-so went stage 1, and is trying to get warranty work done and is "worried" about getting flagged. Boom. Before he even plugs in the computer to the OBDII port, he has an admission that the car is modified.

Obviously, that's not your case, but if you're looking for AoA or a dealer to foot the bill, make sure you don't have any post skeletons in your closet. When the line of communication is open, clear, and concise, a forum can be a valuable tool to get the job done (or at least, get attention higher up). Keep us posted on how this turns out. I'm very curious to see what the dealer and AoA gives you.

Very true. I've had no mods, had all service done at the dealer, etc. No hard driving, unless you count the interstates around DC. So, so skeletons as to the car.

[kaz02a4]

Very true. I've had no mods, had all service done at the dealer, etc. No hard driving, unless you count the interstates around DC. So, so skeletons as to the car.

Good, keep it that way. As someone else mentioned, look for a replacement engine that you can make sure has the updated tensioner, new piston rings, carbon clean, etc. If I was in your position, I'd do that, then take the time to build up the engine with the right components. Obviously, you'll need a car/some form of transport in the meantime, so budget that into the final cost.

Looking forward to hearing how this all turns out. Sorry it's been a bummer to you.

[meburke4]

Latest: as stated above, the dealer diagnosed a cracked cylinder head and forwarded the data to Audi of America. Audi of America decided that the right course of action would be to replace the engine, and they (AoA) have offered to pay 75% of the cost of the repair. On the one hand, I appreciate the offer since the car is out of warranty. On the other hand, I'd always gotten my service done at the dealer--and I feel like I'm being penalized for doing what I was supposed to do with the car in terms of maintenance. Like I have some sort of responsibility for the 'lifetime' part failing--and that's a simple breach of contract claim. And elsewhere on this site and others, I've seen that Audi covered 100% of the cost in similar situations, so why is my 'offer' worse than the others? I'm thinking that this issue with the tensioner failure causing engine failure doesn't happen enough to justify (in Audi's mind) a recall, but happens enough that they know they need to step up. This has been going on a month, and I've just about had it with the whole thing. I suppose the month-long inconvenience is worth $0 in Audi's estimation. I'm also happy that I pre-purchased the 55/65/75 mile service package two years ago--and ironically, the engine part of that 75k service was done as the dealer was diagnosing the no-start issue. So, a pre-paid service done on an engine that is gone. Also worth $0 for Audi. I think what I'm going to do is pay for my portion of the repair, drive the car to CarMax and sell it. This whole experience has soured me on Audi--the cars, the service, the whole thing. Too bad for Audi, since, until this stuff started up a month ago, my wife and I were on schedule to buy a new Q5 or Q7 to replace our aging Volvo XC90. But not now.

[4ringnut]

Total bummer. Unfortunately when you own any German luxury brand without a warranty, you're basically rolling the dice.

[SWONER]

I wouldnt have expected them to pay 75%. Try your luck with a goodwill out of warranty engine replacement with BMW or Mercedes and see how well that works out. You will essentially have a new motor after the rebuild. Why start all over with another car? You obviously loved the A4 at one point. Give it a chance to recoup your investment.

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[meburke4]

I wouldnt have expected them to pay 75%. Try your luck with a goodwill out of warranty engine replacement with BMW or Mercedes and see how well that works out. You will essentially have a new motor after the rebuild. Why start all over with another car? You obviously loved the A4 at one point. Give it a chance to recoup your investment.

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Fair points. Very fair points.

[doowopaudi]

Just an FYI on a possible class action lawsuit regarding the timing tensioner. I'm not sure the validity of this link, but hopefully it's true and can help many, if not all of us.


https://defectiveconsumerproducts.wordpress.com/

[roxta]

A bit late to this tread, but the timing chain and tensioner are very much related and an arguement could be made as to the root cause of the cracked head. The timing chain will stretch over time, the tensioner if functioning correctly will adjust to compensate. There will be a point when the chain becomes 'over' stretched and will need to be replaced. But as per Audi maintenance the timing chain is good for the life of the car, so a premature over stretched chain could be caused by a malfunctioning tensioner.

Now this next part might not apply to Audi engines, but in my experience with automatic tensioners on chains there will be a sensor to indicate when the chain becomes over stretched. It would then alarm to inform you it needs replacing.

[bluetori]

Yeah if your going to get an entirely new engine no sense in getting rid of it after that. I also had a similar experience with Audi, my dealer got a new SA a young guy that appears he wanted to make a name for himself. The guy before him said nothing voids warranty work as long as he is there. Anyway my wife had an 07 Q7 with the 4.2 in it, we had the extended warranty we bought the car used and after about 10k on it it started having timing issues I told the dealer the chain and tensioner we're going. They kept bandaiding the car until the same timing code came again.

They called and said we'll need about 8 hrs to check the engine then said we'll need another 10 hrs. Finally said shockingly chain and tensioner needed replacement. Two days after getting the car back had similar issues took it back and they said it needed a carbon cleaning. The old SA would have done this since the entire engine was out of the car and disassembled nope not the new guy. So I found a TDI Touareg and traded that bitch in at a different dealer. Oh the timing chain bill on a 4.2 was nearly 15k :/

BTW do you have a silver car with dark coloured wheels?

[ak11214]

The latest update- cracked cylinder head, probably (possibly) due to failure of the timing chain tensioner. Don't yet know why tensioner failed--failure might not be best word--the timing chain is stretched (as one would expect at 75k miles) hence the issue. So, they'd need to replace the cylinder head, related parts, timing chain, etc. Dealer quoted me $9k for the repair, and they are going to work with Audi of America to see what Audi can do. Just a bit shocked that I shelled out for an Audi and this is where I am at 75k miles.

Im new to the forum and I recently got a 2011 audi a4 as well. Can someone or OP tell me what do you mean by $140/hour to diagnoses your car issue? Does this mean if the dealer claim they spent 13 hours, you on the hook for $1820 (=$140x13) repair bill just for diagnostic?

[bluetori]

Yes exactly that is labour per hour. Sometimes dealers will waive fees if you get the work done there or if you are u see a warranty you have to commit to it knowing full well the insurance will cover it.

[Allowencer]

A bit late to this tread, but the timing chain and tensioner are very much related and an arguement could be made as to the root cause of the cracked head. The timing chain will stretch over time, the tensioner if functioning correctly will adjust to compensate. There will be a point when the chain becomes 'over' stretched and will need to be replaced. But as per Audi maintenance the timing chain is good for the life of the car, so a premature over stretched chain could be caused by a malfunctioning tensioner.

Now this next part might not apply to Audi engines, but in my experience with automatic tensioners on chains there will be a sensor to indicate when the chain becomes over stretched. It would then alarm to inform you it needs replacing.

Explained very well. There isn't a sensor on this motor (CAEB) for that tensioner.

Yeah if your going to get an entirely new engine no sense in getting rid of it after that. I also had a similar experience with Audi, my dealer got a new SA a young guy that appears he wanted to make a name for himself. The guy before him said nothing voids warranty work as long as he is there. Anyway my wife had an 07 Q7 with the 4.2 in it, we had the extended warranty we bought the car used and after about 10k on it it started having timing issues I told the dealer the chain and tensioner we're going. They kept bandaiding the car until the same timing code came again.

They called and said we'll need about 8 hrs to check the engine then said we'll need another 10 hrs. Finally said shockingly chain and tensioner needed replacement. Two days after getting the car back had similar issues took it back and they said it needed a carbon cleaning. The old SA would have done this since the entire engine was out of the car and disassembled nope not the new guy. So I found a TDI Touareg and traded that bitch in at a different dealer. Oh the timing chain bill on a 4.2 was nearly 15k :/

BTW do you have a silver car with dark coloured wheels?

Wow... it took me less than 3 hours to diagnose my car when it occurred on mine. Good lord they obviously don't know what they are doing.

FYI, here's my thread with a ton of info in it: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...-Now-with-Pics

[name.goes.here]

I wouldnt have expected them to pay 75%. Try your luck with a goodwill out of warranty engine replacement with BMW or Mercedes and see how well that works out. You will essentially have a new motor after the rebuild. Why start all over with another car? You obviously loved the A4 at one point. Give it a chance to recoup your investment.

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+1.

[Slick_B8]

Wow... it took me less than 3 hours to diagnose my car when it occurred on mine. Good lord they obviously don't know what they are doing.


They know what they are doing, theyre lining up their pockets with his hard earned money :(

[Allowencer]

They know what they are doing, theyre lining up their pockets with his hard earned money :(

You're prolly right

[bluetori]

You're prolly right

Yeah basically if the book calls for sure many hours there going to say it takes that much to diagnose.