Devils Own meth kit questions

[erykv1]

Hey guys,

Been contemplating the idea of a meth kit lately and have done some research on this topic. After looking through a few different companies (aquamist, snow performance, AEM etc) to see what they have to offer but I think I have settled on a devils own kit due to its price point.

This is the kit I'm looking at: http://www.alcohol-injection.com/en/...-stage-2a.html

I have a few questions I'd like to get clarified.

1) If I go with this kit, do I need to add an additional nozzle to this setup, or is everything I need included? (If I have to purchase additional lines / nozzles / fittings, I may go with the 034 AEM kit)
2) Is there a benefit to injecting at the bi-pipes, vs a single nozzle at the TBB? better atomization? I mean everything ends up in the plenum anyways right?
3) What is the recommended nozzle size for your average stage 3 car? I've been reading anywhere from 375-500ml/min

Thanks!

[MikeyB3]

Are you planning on getting specifically tuned for meth? If so, my personal opinion (take it how you will) is that this kit is slightly inadequate, in that you kinda get what you pay for in these instances.

Aside from that, injecting at the bipipes allows for the air to get charged with meth and cooled before it goes into the TB. If I were to do it differently, I'd do direct port injection.
These guys have some great meth info, and if you call them, he'll talk your ear off about it as he's crazy knowledgeable. Info about direct injection.

Nozzle size is about how much you want to inject, vs the airflow. You dont want to oversaturate and end up choking the system. There's definitely a sweet spot, and you have to dial it in. This is why the other kits have an edge on the Devils Own. If you're just going to inject 50/50 meth for overall benefits and power consistency, this kit is fine. If you're going to tune for it, probably want to upgrade. I might be the only one who feels this way, so just bear that in mind.

[erykv1]

Are you planning on getting specifically tuned for meth? If so, my personal opinion (take it how you will) is that this kit is slightly inadequate, in that you kinda get what you pay for in these instances.

Aside from that, injecting at the bipipes allows for the air to get charged with meth and cooled before it goes into the TB. If I were to do it differently, I'd do direct port injection.
These guys have some great meth info, and if you call them, he'll talk your ear off about it as he's crazy knowledgeable. Info about direct injection.

Nozzle size is about how much you want to inject, vs the airflow. You dont want to oversaturate and end up choking the system. There's definitely a sweet spot, and you have to dial it in. This is why the other kits have an edge on the Devils Own. If you're just going to inject 50/50 meth for overall benefits and power consistency, this kit is fine. If you're going to tune for it, probably want to upgrade. I might be the only one who feels this way, so just bear that in mind.

Thanks for the info! Yes I plan on getting tuned for meth, but the main reason for me to run it is to keep IATs down and prevent detonation. HP gains would be a bonus but not the main goal.

If this kit isn't sufficient? Would you consider AEMs kit the same? They are both a progressive system.

Also do I need to purchase an additional nozzle for this kit if I do decide to go with it?

[CELison]

I ran the Devils own kit for almost 2 years. Just make sure you have a wb

[erykv1]

I ran the Devils own kit for almost 2 years. Just make sure you have a wb

The stage 2 kit? Did you have to purchase an additional nozzle or is everything in that kit sufficient?
Thanks!

[CELison]

I had a vast/Devils own kit. Used #5 nozzles. Which I actually still have with check valve and nozzle holders of you need them

[DieselElectric]

Use 2 nozzles for our application. I was running dual d04's on a mild stage 3 setup. Now running dual d07's, and just happen to have the d04's for sale....

[CELison]

Use 2 nozzles for our application. I was running dual d04's on a mild stage 3 setup. Now running dual d07's, and just happen to have the d04's for sale....

Those nozzles I thought I sent you I just found in my garage yesterday. Whoops.

[julex]

You need two nozzles, in bi-pipes, two D05 should be just about what you might ever need in your set-up but that depends on what pump you get too. Some pump at 175, some at 225 psi delivering different amount of meth... Nozzles are rated at 100psi.

But... having replaced EVERYTHING but the controller in my Devil's Own system due to deterioration or outright inadequacy of components, I DON'T recommend Devil's Own. It is definitely "what you pay for" here.

[MikeyB3]

Thanks for the info! Yes I plan on getting tuned for meth, but the main reason for me to run it is to keep IATs down and prevent detonation. HP gains would be a bonus but not the main goal.

If this kit isn't sufficient? Would you consider AEMs kit the same? They are both a progressive system.

Also do I need to purchase an additional nozzle for this kit if I do decide to go with it?

Many of the questions has already been answered in previous posts. I guess what I'm saying and it seems some others would agree, but I went through 2 pumps with that kit, and when I wanted to tune for meth, ended up spending some serious coin on a Labonte Stage 4 controller to have it wired in to the system. After it was all said and done, I could've just bought an Aquamist HFS-3 (which is currently what I have) and been done with it. Which incidentally, is much less expensive than when I purchased it. I'm interested to see what you end up doing, so please keep updating!

[erykv1]

Many of the questions has already been answered in previous posts. I guess what I'm saying and it seems some others would agree, but I went through 2 pumps with that kit, and when I wanted to tune for meth, ended up spending some serious coin on a Labonte Stage 4 controller to have it wired in to the system. After it was all said and done, I could've just bought an Aquamist HFS-3 (which is currently what I have) and been done with it. Which incidentally, is much less expensive than when I purchased it. I'm interested to see what you end up doing, so please keep updating!

Yeah, so I did some more searching and ended up on devils owns community forum. There were like 2 to 3 posts in a row about controller failures causing it to dump meth into various cars when it was off. Seems a little off-putting to me, I shall do some more researching.

I initially didn't want to deal with an aquamist setup but it seems like it comes with everything I need, down to the failsafes. Install seems to be a little more involved as it runs off of IDC vs your conventional progressive controller.

Thanks again for your input.

[julex]

You want to run off IDC since that allows the controller to meter meth according to how much air/fuel is being injected. It is far better than based on boost. It is still pretty rough though because to be truly accurate you would need constant pressure/bypass system with solenoid nozzles but that's getting expensive right here.

[MikeyB3]

The HFS-3 (or 4) is plenty. Sure there are much more sophisticated setups, but the fail safe is pretty crucial. Yes, setup is more time consuming, but you'll get exact results, and once you get it set up an dialed in, you dont have to mess with it again. Those guys from USRT are pretty awesome and the support from Aquamist is outstanding. (anecdote: I needed support from them on Saturday (had spoken with them earlier in the week), and got a phone call from Brighton UK Saturday morning)

[erykv1]

You want to run off IDC since that allows the controller to meter meth according to how much air/fuel is being injected. It is far better than based on boost. It is still pretty rough though because to be truly accurate you would need constant pressure/bypass system with solenoid nozzles but that's getting expensive right here.

The HFS-3 (or 4) is plenty. Sure there are much more sophisticated setups, but the fail safe is pretty crucial. Yes, setup is more time consuming, but you'll get exact results, and once you get it set up an dialed in, you dont have to mess with it again. Those guys from USRT are pretty awesome and the support from Aquamist is outstanding. (anecdote: I needed support from them on Saturday (had spoken with them earlier in the week), and got a phone call from Brighton UK Saturday morning)

Is there a need for 3 nozzles that comes with the hfs-3? Where would the 3rd one be placed?

[MikeyB3]

Is there a need for 3 nozzles that comes with the hfs-3? Where would the 3rd one be placed?

Depends on the setup and how aggressive you get with the meth tuning. I have 3. Two on one bipipe and one on the other. IIRC, they're 1.0, 0.6 on the one side and 0.8 on the other. I can verify for you on Wednesday. I have some parts arriving and I'll be pulling some stuff apart.

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Here was my thread on it:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...r-WMI-on-stg-3

I ended up running dual D02 nozzles because D03's were spraying too much causing misfires at higher RPMS. I then used my wideband to dial in my afr w/o meth perfectly to about 10.5:1. I then adjusted the pump pressure with the D02 nozzles till right before I was misfiring again. At this point my AFRs were around 11:1.

On my progressive controller I start spray at 7psi and full at 17 psi.

Just running these d02s on k04s at 20psi I am able to lower my delta IATs to only rise 10 - 15 degrees C. Also advanced my overall timing up top forward about 6 degrees.

I do not know how people with k04s get away with larger nozzles. it is not good to tune to rely on the meth instead of fuel.

[DieselElectric]

Misfiring on d02 nozzles? I was running d04's with k03s and no issues. 50/50 mix.

I have no issues using the methanol as fuel. If the pump quits my AFR jumps to 12.5:1, and is accompanied by an obvious loss of power. If you don't lift when something obvious changes, then you deserve what happens.

Anyway, right now I'm starting from a base tune again. Not running much timing and only 19-20 psi until I get my fueling exact, I am noticing some slight misfiring in the top end on the d07's at the lower boost pressure. That said, at 24-25 psi it runs amazing. I also raised my start to 12 psi and full at 14psi. My fuel map is fattened up from 100% load and tapers down around 160% which is where the methanol kicks in. Works well to where i end up with a solid 11.5:1 afr during spool up pre-methanol, yet it doesn't got super rich while spraying.

Still on a 50/50 mix, if I were running 100% methanol I would have stuck with the d04's, but I like my IAT to drop instead of raise.

[erykv1]

Depends on the setup and how aggressive you get with the meth tuning. I have 3. Two on one bipipe and one on the other. IIRC, they're 1.0, 0.6 on the one side and 0.8 on the other. I can verify for you on Wednesday. I have some parts arriving and I'll be pulling some stuff apart.

THanks for the info, I'll await your response :)

Here was my thread on it:

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...r-WMI-on-stg-3

I ended up running dual D02 nozzles because D03's were spraying too much causing misfires at higher RPMS. I then used my wideband to dial in my afr w/o meth perfectly to about 10.5:1. I then adjusted the pump pressure with the D02 nozzles till right before I was misfiring again. At this point my AFRs were around 11:1.

On my progressive controller I start spray at 7psi and full at 17 psi.

Just running these d02s on k04s at 20psi I am able to lower my delta IATs to only rise 10 - 15 degrees C. Also advanced my overall timing up top forward about 6 degrees.

I do not know how people with k04s get away with larger nozzles. it is not good to tune to rely on the meth instead of fuel.

Misfiring on d02 nozzles? I was running d04's with k03s and no issues. 50/50 mix.

I have no issues using the methanol as fuel. If the pump quits my AFR jumps to 12.5:1, and is accompanied by an obvious loss of power. If you don't lift when something obvious changes, then you deserve what happens.

Anyway, right now I'm starting from a base tune again. Not running much timing and only 19-20 psi until I get my fueling exact, I am noticing some slight misfiring in the top end on the d07's at the lower boost pressure. That said, at 24-25 psi it runs amazing. I also raised my start to 12 psi and full at 14psi. My fuel map is fattened up from 100% load and tapers down around 160% which is where the methanol kicks in. Works well to where i end up with a solid 11.5:1 afr during spool up pre-methanol, yet it doesn't got super rich while spraying.

Still on a 50/50 mix, if I were running 100% methanol I would have stuck with the d04's, but I like my IAT to drop instead of raise.

Looks like I still got a ton to learn, but I think I have decided to hold of on meth and save my pennies until I can afford the aquamist hfs-3 setup. Seems to make the most sense at this point in time. The only thing that sucks about waiting is, I will have to pay again to get tuned for it.

[FlyboyS4]

Looks like I still got a ton to learn, but I think I have decided to hold of on meth and save my pennies until I can afford the aquamist hfs-3 setup. Seems to make the most sense at this point in time. The only thing that sucks about waiting is, I will have to pay again to get tuned for it.

In your position I'd look seriously at the 034 kit. The bells and whistles some setups have are nice, but unless you plan on playing with the system a lot having it turn on with positive boost is all you'll need. Two nozzles will suffice. Having the wiring mostly done for you like 034 has done is a nice plus. Aquamist is nice equipment, but I can see you buying a lot of capability you won't use with the HFS-3.

[erykv1]

In your position I'd look seriously at the 034 kit. The bells and whistles some setups have are nice, but unless you plan on playing with the system a lot having it turn on with positive boost is all you'll need. Two nozzles will suffice. Having the wiring mostly done for you like 034 has done is a nice plus. Aquamist is nice equipment, but I can see you buying a lot of capability you won't use with the HFS-3.

The 034 kit is $595, it seems like for low $700's I can get the hfs-3 which is IDC controlled and from what I've been reading is a much better alternative than the progressive controllers found in DO / AEM's kits. With that being said, is the AEM kit more reliable than the DO kit? Seems like there have been a fair share of controller failures on the DO ends of things.

[julex]

get aquamist, period.

[jsethwerner225]

If anyone wants to sell your dual nozzle set up let me know. I have the single nozzle set up installed but haven't used it yet on my stage 3. The fitting that goes to your washer tank was broken when I received the kit and devils own won't replace it for free so I've Bn to mad about that to order a new tank fitting and the dual nozzle kit!

[FlyboyS4]

I can get the hfs-3 which is IDC controlled and from what I've been reading is a much better alternative than the progressive controllers found in DO / AEM's kits.

What qualities make an IDC controller much better than the progressive controllers, and how do you plan to realize an advantage with an IDC controller?

[julex]

What qualities make an IDC controller much better than the progressive controllers, and how do you plan to realize an advantage with an IDC controller?

With IDC controller you can dial in amount of meth precisely to the amount of fuel/air going in, it makes it independent of ambient temp as well since IDC reflects O2 mass and current requested AFR on the ECU.

Progressive controller is very crude in comparison as it only works off boost pressure. 15psi at 3k and 15psi at 7k looks the same to that controller but the amount of air and thus fuel going into the engine is vastly different.... factor in ambient temp changes through the year and suddenly you might have a difference of 200%+ of amount of meth injected at the same boost pressure but different RPMs leading to engien flooding or simply inadequate amount of meth injected WHEN you need it most.

With progressive controller you'd normally tune the car to not get flooded at low rpms (injection start PSI) and inject max at your max boost pressure. The result is that you reach optimal mixture at your first boost peak and then you sustain the amount of meth injection to red line... problem is that as RPMs go up, so does the amount of meth needed to curb the knocking but that's not happening with progressive controller since it is tuned to not flood engine in mid RPMs at boost peak....ooops.

With IDC you're free to somewhat linearly (or at least in much more controlled fashion) inject based on some arbitrary "min" IDC and "max" IDC (it works similarly top boost triggers in progressive controller). Since IDC is simply a unit the amount of fuel injected per cylinder cycle and it is not RPM dependent in this context, it allows the system to ramp up and sustain chosen % of meth to fuel until engine rpm cutoff.

I am of course not touching the subject of pump delay, time delay to build the pressure up and non-linearity of pressure/injection amount vs Pump duty cycle, this is why I said before that to truly realize precise control of meth you'd need bypass system with solenoid nozzles...

Edit: I just realized that something need clarification. Both controllers are actually "progressive". The difference is that DO one can only read analog 0-5v input voltage so you can only tap either MAP sensor of MAF sensor (this is what I did with mine) and live with shortcomings of system. Aquamist can tap IDC as well which is really a sort of PWM signal. So if you could make a circuit to convert PWM to linear 0-5v voltage, you can use DO or any other controller as IDC/PWM controller.

If I knew what I know now, Aquamist would be the syste to get due to its IDC signal pickup ability.

[Mr.Z]

Im running coolingmist with their CMGS progressive controler I can post pics if u want

[FlyboyS4]

With IDC controller you can...

In typical use I don't see the 'advantages' of the IDC controlled system being realized. The setup seems over engineered for what it ends up needing to do, unless you are trying to take a tune to the edge, with w/m needing to be tightly controlled. I used an Aquamist system for several years that had the MAP trigger and IDC flow control, nothing wrong with it, but I feel it's more than is necessary for a basic w/m setup.

[julex]

In typical use I don't see the 'advantages' of the IDC controlled system being realized. The setup seems over engineered for what it ends up needing to do, unless you are trying to take a tune to the edge, with w/m needing to be tightly controlled. I used an Aquamist system for several years that had the MAP trigger and IDC flow control, nothing wrong with it, but I feel it's more than is necessary for a basic w/m setup.

So you were using PROPERLY engineered wm system that worked "fine" and based on that, you somehow extrapolate that cheap MAP driven wm kit should be fine too?

[FlyboyS4]

So you were using PROPERLY engineered wm system that worked "fine" and based on that, you somehow extrapolate that cheap MAP driven wm kit should be fine too?

No, since then I've gone to a setup that injects based upon MAP and RPM without problems. Additionally I take a look around at the various systems on the market that use the progressive type controller, consider how long they've been out, and deduce that if they all were exhibiting the problems you suggest they would not have much of a market. I'm also considering that the suggested injection rate for w/m to fuel is around 10-15%, even if variance in IDC with conditions was around 10%, which would be high, the resulting change in w/m injection rate would need to go from 15% to 13%, which I don't believe would be a significant change to a typical setup.

Aquamist is in the business of selling a product and hyping USP's is one aspect of that, even if the USP doesn't offer much to the consumer over competing brands that may be slightly different. Aquamist is good stuff and the way their system controls w/m injection is nice, but for an average setup that is targeted at controlling IAT and possibly operating with a leaner AFR I think the alternatives that use a progressive controller can adequately accomplish the task.

[MikeyB3]

OP, I have jet sizes for you.

3 jets : 1.0, 0.8, and 0.6. I dont think it matters, but for reference the 2 larger ones are on passengers side and the smaller one is on the drivers side.



EDIT: I want to also add that I'm running a 770 kit, tuned for methanol on 3 different fuel types, none of which are E85. I aimed for a specific power level, and am running 100% methanol, no mix. I feel it's important to add this so we're not comparing apples to oranges. My setup was specific in it's purpose, and what I wanted out of it in the end, leading to my choice upon recommendation from my tuner for the HFS3 setup. Budget constraints and your end game goal are important things to consider. Most kits will get you where you want in the end, but if you're like me, I like something that allows me to grow in my setup and not have to buy same/similar things twice.

[julex]

No, since then I've gone to a setup that injects based upon MAP and RPM without problems. Additionally I take a look around at the various systems on the market that use the progressive type controller, consider how long they've been out, and deduce that if they all were exhibiting the problems you suggest they would not have much of a market. I'm also considering that the suggested injection rate for w/m to fuel is around 10-15%, even if variance in IDC with conditions was around 10%, which would be high, the resulting change in w/m injection rate would need to go from 15% to 13%, which I don't believe would be a significant change to a typical setup.

Aquamist is in the business of selling a product and hyping USP's is one aspect of that, even if the USP doesn't offer much to the consumer over competing brands that may be slightly different. Aquamist is good stuff and the way their system controls w/m injection is nice, but for an average setup that is targeted at controlling IAT and possibly operating with a leaner AFR I think the alternatives that use a progressive controller can adequately accomplish the task.

All controllers are progressive, DO and Aquamist alike, they all can drive pump with PWM signal based with (at least one) analog voltage input. DO is such basic controller. You can only use one input (0v-5v) that gets translated into PWM (0-100%) duty cycle to WM pump, agree?

When you went with "since then I've gone to a setup that injects based upon MAP and RPM", you completely leap frogged the DO style set up since you're apparently driving the controller with two inputs, a floor trigger with MAP which tells the controlled to inject only above certain boost level AND then you control the amount of meth you inject based on RPMs. If you set it up so the meth only activates when you reach your near max boost figure then you can consider the RPM input to be analogue of max IDC input your engine will ever see at given RPMs since it is pushing max air/fuel it can. As you remarked, it still leaves you vulnerable to ambient temps variations which could be more than 10% between say 0F and 90F which is what I could see seasonally here.

Both of your set ups are far beyond DO's single input (boost pressure usually) capabilities, DO is sadly crude in comparison to either MAP/IDC or MAP/RPMs set ups you had... as such, you have no right to argue that DO "is fine" and "aquamist is overkill", because it is not.

Anyway, some reading about proper set up with serious pressures, proper atomization and fine control over injected amount :

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html

[hibiscusS4]

id grab the aem kit. i had the devils own and after not even a month of driving the controler failed on me and i opened up the box to see some out sourced board made by people who shouldnt even make boards because the setup on this is just bad.

[FlyboyS4]

Both of your set ups are far beyond DO's single input (boost pressure usually) capabilities, DO is sadly crude in comparison to either MAP/IDC or MAP/RPMs set ups you had... as such, you have no right to argue that DO "is fine" and "aquamist is overkill", because it is not.

But the guy who does not have an Aquamist system has the right to argue for it?

This would be an interesting discussion over the theoretical application of flow control systems if both types weren't in widespread use. The fact that they both have been around for a while is evidence enough for me that the simpler setup can work fine.

The problem I have with the rbracing "proper set up with serious pressures"... is that those people had as a goal "If you are running for six wide open miles at Bonneville you must know exactly how much water is going into your engine." I did not get the impression the OP is out to set a land speed record in his S4. As I've said numerous times, for a typical setup I think the MAP based controller is fine, if you want to push the edge of the envelope, not what I heard the OP say was a goal, then better control over the fluid injection may be warranted.

[julex]

But the guy who does not have an Aquamist system has the right to argue for it?

This would be an interesting discussion over the theoretical application of flow control systems if both types weren't in widespread use. The fact that they both have been around for a while is evidence enough for me that the simpler setup can work fine.

The problem I have with the rbracing "proper set up with serious pressures"... is that those people had as a goal "If you are running for six wide open miles at Bonneville you must know exactly how much water is going into your engine." I did not get the impression the OP is out to set a land speed record in his S4. As I've said numerous times, for a typical setup I think the MAP based controller is fine, if you want to push the edge of the envelope, not what I heard the OP say was a goal, then better control over the fluid injection may be warranted.

Unfortunately your argument actually applies to about 99% of people who buy meth system as they are just plain clueless. Even simple calculation of what they might need for nozzles is beyond their abilities (I've seen people slapping big nozzles in because they figured nominal flow is what it flows... they don't even realize that spraying at 225psi vs 100psi is almost double the amount) so I don't expect them to realize that their DO MAP set up is actually a big POS... They only realize they spray too much meth when cars bogs down, so they dial it back, and voila... recipe for under performing WM system when high RPMs don't get what they need and lows get flooded and don't realize their full potential. Heck, 90% of WM users don't even get tune to exploit WM system so what are we even arguing here about.

Cheers.

[erykv1]

id grab the aem kit. i had the devils own and after not even a month of driving the controler failed on me and i opened up the box to see some out sourced board made by people who shouldnt even make boards because the setup on this is just bad.

If I go the AEM route, I think I will buy a kit and a separate nozzle. As nice as the 034 kit is, I dont mind spending some time wiring it up to make it work.

But the guy who does not have an Aquamist system has the right to argue for it?

This would be an interesting discussion over the theoretical application of flow control systems if both types weren't in widespread use. The fact that they both have been around for a while is evidence enough for me that the simpler setup can work fine.

The problem I have with the rbracing "proper set up with serious pressures"... is that those people had as a goal "If you are running for six wide open miles at Bonneville you must know exactly how much water is going into your engine." I did not get the impression the OP is out to set a land speed record in his S4. As I've said numerous times, for a typical setup I think the MAP based controller is fine, if you want to push the edge of the envelope, not what I heard the OP say was a goal, then better control over the fluid injection may be warranted.

Unfortunately your argument actually applies to about 99% of people who buy meth system as they are just plain clueless. Even simple calculation of what they might need for nozzles is beyond their abilities (I've seen people slapping big nozzles in because they figured nominal flow is what it flows... they don't even realize that spraying at 225psi vs 100psi is almost double the amount) so I don't expect them to realize that their DO MAP set up is actually a big POS... They only realize they spray too much meth when cars bogs down, so they dial it back, and voila... recipe for under performing WM system when high RPMs don't get what they need and lows get flooded and don't realize their full potential. Heck, 90% of WM users don't even get tune to exploit WM system so what are we even arguing here about.

Cheers.

You both bring up good points. although my setup is nothing fancy (stock block on srm k24 rs6's)... I rather spend the money once, than spend less now and have to worry about upgrading in the future. Plus Aquamist's price point right around $700 includes the failsafe & gauge. If you wanted to add a failsafe option its another $230 for the AEM which brings it right where the Aquamist setup is, and it still doesn't have all the features.

From what I've gathered thus far... if planning to run a meth kit with no tune, a boost reference type meth kit is more than sufficient. However an IDC type meth kit is much more effective when used in conjunction with a tune as IDC is directly related to engine load, where as boost reference is not.