Can you run a 5x114.3 with a M12 stud conversion?

[CJ_]

Hey all,

I found a set of 5x114.3 wheels i like and was curious if you could run them on the 5x112 with a m12 stud conversion.
I know you could run 5x114.4 with wobble bolts, but would i need wobble bolts (or wobble nuts) If I have the stud conversion?

Thanks!

[landfill]

Or a 3rd option you can do a fill & redrill.

[audi-hammer]

project B5 sells a stud conversion to 5x114.3 for like $85 I think, or run wobble bolts, $80 plus $20 for hubcentric rings or what he said fill and redrill

[bobkatkat]

Hey all,

I found a set of 5x114.3 wheels i like and was curious if you could run them on the 5x112 with a m12 stud conversion.
I know you could run 5x114.4 with wobble bolts, but would i need wobble bolts (or wobble nuts) If I have the stud conversion?

Thanks!

Yes you can.

[CJ_]

with regular lugs?

[bobkatkat]

with regular lugs?

Tuner lugs. But depends on the wheels.

[naudlee]

yes you can, they work quite well.

[hotshot32890]

I've run the project b5 dot com stud kit for three different sets of 5x114.3 wheels for several years. Good product

[ltipcke]

Bringing this back from the dead. Those of you running the m5x112 to m5x114.3 stud conversion with your 5x114.3 wheels. How large are your wheel bolt holes? Im trying to get my wedsport wheels (super light weight japan wheels) to fit with one of these stud conversions and theres no fucking way. The wheel bolt holes on these wheels are 12mm and the wheel gets hung up on the threads immediately and wont go on at all.

I know people use wobble bolts. But that wouldnt work either since the wobble bolts are 14mm and the stock 14mm bolts dont fit through the 12mm wheel bolt holes. Im assuming my small bolt holes are the reason these wheels arent working with the 5x114 stud conversion...

[james 408]

just bore out the holes... there are wheel refinishing shops that will do it, some for like $5 a wheel, others like $200 a wheel. Fill and redrill is another option, and would be what I'd do. I'm sure they make the appropriate wobble bolts too.

[ltipcke]

just bore out the holes... there are wheel refinishing shops that will do it, some for like $5 a wheel, others like $200 a wheel. Fill and redrill is another option, and would be what I'd do. I'm sure they make the appropriate wobble bolts too.

Im sure ill have to bore them out. Just trying to make sure this is my problem first.

[joegem5]

Getting the 5x112>5x114.3 stud conversion doesn't actually change BCD it just allows you to wobble nuts?

[AudiTechS4]

any reason you cant just take a drill to the hole and go the next size up ?

[Devious27t]

Or a 3rd option you can do a fill & redrill.

you don't need to fill and redrill. you need to drill like 1mm on 2 holes for 114.3 to fit. I've done it many times with zero issues.

[james 408]

the reason you wouldn't take a drill to it because it wouldn't be centered. not a big deal, just not best practice for avoiding vibrations. I mean do the math on drilling out 2 holes to make it fit, and tell me how that could possibly be centered properly, it simply can't.

[AudiTechS4]

the reason you wouldn't take a drill to it because it wouldn't be centered. not a big deal, just not best practice for avoiding vibrations. I mean do the math on drilling out 2 holes to make it fit, and tell me how that could possibly be centered properly, it simply can't.

why wouldn't it be centered ? never knew the wheel was centered by the lugs . guess hub centering doesn't matter .
pretty sure a wheel rotated 1mm to the left or right has noting to do with it being centered on the hub .

[james 408]

It's just geometry. If 5 holes are centered, you'd have to shave each hole evenly. If you only move two of them, it's not possible to be centered. Boring out for the wider thread yes, but 5x114.3 and 5x112 are different by 2.3 mm of diameter. By definition, you cannot center this freehand without extreme luck, and by only targetting 2 holes, you guarantee failure in this endeavor.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiret....jsp?techid=92

[james 408]

if you really want to freehand it you can do some math on each hole and either maintain drillbit size first and just use the edge, and then recenter with a larger bit between the two new centerpoints of an elongated hole. But as I understand it they just put it on one of their many wheel centering drilling machines, i've seen the shop, it's just a variety of drill-presses and lathes, each machine designed to do this exact sort of task. Just pay the man and avoid the headache. I mean i can probably freehand a direct line away from center decently too, but you know what you're trying to do sidebiting a bit into a hole like that. And really the problem is precision.

Basically: 2.3mm divided by 2, divide that by 5 = each holes desired distance to move towards the outside.

Edit: don't divide by 5 :)

[Nollywood]

if you really want to freehand it you can do some math on each hole and either maintain drillbit size first and just use the edge, and then recenter with a larger bit between the two new centerpoints of an elongated hole. But as I understand it they just put it on one of their many wheel centering drilling machines, i've seen the shop, it's just a variety of drill-presses and lathes, each machine designed to do this exact sort of task. Just pay the man and avoid the headache. I mean i can probably freehand a direct line away from center decently too, but you know what you're trying to do sidebiting a bit into a hole like that. And really the problem is precision.

Basically: 2.3mm divided by 2, divide that by 5 = each holes desired distance to move towards the outside.

Spot on, James.

Devious, the hub does centre the wheel - to a certain degree.

The lug nuts / bolts do as well. This is why it’s important to use the correct nut / bolt seat to match the wheels. Drilling just 2 holes will mean as the nuts / bolts are tightened, there will be a natural tendency for the wheel to move towards the drilled holes. The centre bore will be tight on one side of the hub, and have a fraction more clearance on the other side.

A fraction won’t be visible by merely looking at the wheel - indeed, there may not be any negative effects in driving at lower (city) speeds. At higher speeds though, that slight offset will cause vibration.

We’re talking Japanese wheels here, so hub-centric rings will be used. Their tolerances will not be as snug as the OEM Audi 57.1mm centre bores either. I would pay a shop to get things done properly. Too much to go wrong free-handing, worse on just 2 lug holes.

[Devious27t]

the reason you wouldn't take a drill to it because it wouldn't be centered. not a big deal, just not best practice for avoiding vibrations. I mean do the math on drilling out 2 holes to make it fit, and tell me how that could possibly be centered properly, it simply can't.

I've had quite a few sets drilled and never had any issues with vibration or centering issues. While that might make sense in theory, with someone who knows what they're doing, it's 100% a non-issue.

[Devious27t]

if you really want to freehand it you can do some math on each hole and either maintain drillbit size first and just use the edge, and then recenter with a larger bit between the two new centerpoints of an elongated hole. But as I understand it they just put it on one of their many wheel centering drilling machines, i've seen the shop, it's just a variety of drill-presses and lathes, each machine designed to do this exact sort of task. Just pay the man and avoid the headache. I mean i can probably freehand a direct line away from center decently too, but you know what you're trying to do sidebiting a bit into a hole like that. And really the problem is precision.

Basically: 2.3mm divided by 2, divide that by 5 = each holes desired distance to move towards the outside.

Edit: don't divide by 5 :)

I've never free-handed, I've always used Supreme Power to get mine done. Like you said, just pay to have it done right.

That said, they only drill 2 holes for 114.3=>112, not 5.

[james 408]

best practice imho is just redrill em. same thing they'd do a few miles down, in a machine shop. There are limitations here but I think that's exactly the redrill I did.

each tapered evenly, centered, circular. Redrilled jap wheels. think i've been backwards in the direction... btw on the redrill. we're 5x112, sorry too many cars. Same advice.

[JVD]

I ran my TC105N with 12mm studs and Kics lug nuts. Never had any issues. That was just with enlarging the stud bore. Keep in mind the seat is still slightly off center.

If you want it to be PERFECT they should have the PCD changed. I think this involves some sort seat washer being welded in.

[e30mclow]

I've ran wobble bolts on increased lug bore 5x114.3 for the last 2 years. Zero issues ever.

[doo0T!doo0T!]

you don't need to fill and redrill. you need to drill like 1mm on 2 holes for 114.3 to fit. I've done it many times with zero issues.

There is so much wrong with this. I'm sure you did get away with it but to my engineer type brain it sounds like fingernails on a chalk board!

the reason you wouldn't take a drill to it because it wouldn't be centered. not a big deal, just not best practice for avoiding vibrations. I mean do the math on drilling out 2 holes to make it fit, and tell me how that could possibly be centered properly, it simply can't.

2nd'd, this is putting a whole lot of faith in your often plastic centric hub ring's abilities to hold up. Those wheel fixtures will be having a party in all directions.



I chose to run M14 to M12 stud converters and then wobble NUTS over a hub centric ring and it works perfectly, everything is centered correctly and torques up evenly.

IMO it's the only way to do it if you don't want to re-machine your wheel bores. If you are ok with boring your wheels out then that can be perfectly ok too.

Many Japanese 5x114.3 wheels were not designed to be fitted over M14 studs so often the bolthole bores will slightly interfere with the studs or wheel bolt shanks when offcentre. You can get around this by chasing out your wheel stud bores to 14/15mm but if you ever wanted to put them back over M12 studs again you've now compromised the seating area under the bolts/nuts. That's ok if the wheels are only going to stay on M14 vehicles.

Everyone who is suggesting you can just ram a 5x114.3 PCD over a 5x112 PCD and send it home without concentric correction on the fixtures (i.e wobble nuts) you should not be listening to them.
Doing this is side loading the fixtures severely and all 5 fixtures will be fighting each other as they seat on their tapers.

Yes with a reduction to an M12 stud you will be able to make it through the holes without any interference on the wheel but your ball or conical tapers under the nuts will not be concentrically aligned and if you torque regular wheel nuts down like that you will deflect the studs to one side before the tapers self align.

With a wobble nut or bolt the conical tapers self align themselves as they are tightened and there is no side load produced. The whole assembly is relaxed and resting on the centric hub ring as it is tightened up and once tightened the only force remaining is pure clamping force between the rim and the hub/disc.

Studs/bolts are not intended to take shear load in braking/acceleration. They should only take tension load.
It's the friction provided by the clamping force that stops the wheel spinning. (like a clutch) The shanks of the fixtures should never touch the side of the wheel stud bores in proper application.

If you run studs you need wobble nuts.
If you run bolts you need wobble bolts.

There will be plenty of people that argue with me on this and say they have never had a problem and that's fine but I would implore them to think about it logically before they do.

[Devious27t]

There is so much wrong with this. I'm sure you did get away with it but to my engineer type brain it sounds like fingernails on a chalk board!


2nd'd, this is putting a whole lot of faith in your often plastic centric hub ring's abilities to hold up. Those wheel fixtures will be having a party in all directions.



I chose to run M14 to M12 stud converters and then wobble NUTS over a hub centric ring and it works perfectly, everything is centered correctly and torques up evenly.

IMO it's the only way to do it if you don't want to re-machine your wheel bores. If you are ok with boring your wheels out then that can be perfectly ok too.

Many Japanese 5x114.3 wheels were not designed to be fitted over M14 studs so often the bolthole bores will slightly interfere with the studs or wheel bolt shanks when offcentre. You can get around this by chasing out your wheel stud bores to 14/15mm but if you ever wanted to put them back over M12 studs again you've now compromised the seating area under the bolts/nuts. That's ok if the wheels are only going to stay on M14 vehicles.

Everyone who is suggesting you can just ram a 5x114.3 PCD over a 5x112 PCD and send it home without concentric correction on the fixtures (i.e wobble nuts) you should not be listening to them.
Doing this is side loading the fixtures severely and all 5 fixtures will be fighting each other as they seat on their tapers.

Yes with a reduction to an M12 stud you will be able to make it through the holes without any interference on the wheel but your ball or conical tapers under the nuts will not be concentrically aligned and if you torque regular wheel nuts down like that you will deflect the studs to one side before the tapers self align.

With a wobble nut or bolt the conical tapers self align themselves as they are tightened and there is no side load produced. The whole assembly is relaxed and resting on the centric hub ring as it is tightened up and once tightened the only force remaining is pure clamping force between the rim and the hub/disc.

Studs/bolts are not intended to take shear load in braking/acceleration. They should only take tension load.
It's the friction provided by the clamping force that stops the wheel spinning. (like a clutch) The shanks of the fixtures should never touch the side of the wheel stud bores in proper application.

If you run studs you need wobble nuts.
If you run bolts you need wobble bolts.

There will be plenty of people that argue with me on this and say they have never had a problem and that's fine but I would implore them to think about it logically before they do.

Your engineer type brain is over complicating this. I've been running multiple sets of wheels like this for more than 15 years on Audis. Nothing wrong about it. I've done over 180 mph on wheels like this with ZERO wobble or vibration.

[james 408]

sure, but you're more likely to have snapped lugbolts as well. It's not really up for debate to be honest -- it's just asymetrical. The tire guys balanced your wheel/tire combo, and this just doesn't always work especially under hard driving conditions. Further, it's balanced off your centerbore, not how the wheel is finally mounted.

IIRC one of my buddies with an E30 drift car did this, he kept snapping lugs, not to mention there was a bit of extra care needed when mounting. Not sure what other contributing factors there were including really old crap and the fact nothing was balanced cause it's a drift car and that would be worthless in about 5 minutes. Think he sold the wheels after snapping a few studs as well. I'm pretty sure this was a homedrill but he read this same crap on a forum which is why he tried it in the first place.

Edit: personally I wouldn't wobble bolt it either, plenty of longterm complaints on that stuff -- snapped bolts primarily, presumably fatigued metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33KljLVvTM0
asymmetry is a bitch.

[mikeb17]

This whole thread is giving me cancer... buy the stud conversion from PB5. Buy some tuner lugs and the right hub spacer. Fit your wheels. Done.

[JVD]

Your engineer type brain is over complicating this. I've been running multiple sets of wheels like this for more than 15 years on Audis. Nothing wrong about it. I've done over 180 mph on wheels like this with ZERO wobble or vibration.

It doesn't take an engineer type brain to figure this out.

It takes a human with eyeballs.

I ran straight 12mm studs with "tuner lugs." Yes, it worked. No, it isn't the proper solution.

It doesn't take a genius to realize there's a difference between the two bolt patterns. As you tighten your lug nuts you'll be pulling all outwards away from the hub. This was not a problem for me as I had hub centric rings. The wheels would always center properly.

Someone is trying to share CORRECT information and you guys are acting like he's the idiot.

[ltipcke]

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...9JcHctcGZEMmtn

i did have them bored out and im definitely not a fan of the side load it puts on the studs....we will see what happens i guess.

[JVD]

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...9JcHctcGZEMmtn

i did have them bored out and im definitely not a fan of the side load it puts on the studs....we will see what happens i guess.

Same setup and issue I was describing.

Anyone else in the peanut gallery want to tell this guy he's wrong too?

[Devious27t]

Same setup and issue I was describing.

Anyone else in the peanut gallery want to tell this guy he's wrong too?

My drilled wheels fit 100% like OEM and do not load the studs. Yes, I will tell you that M12 studs and tuner lugs are garbage.

[CJ_]

Wow, blast from the past.. funny thing is I never ended up with 5x114.3 wheels. Found a set of BBSs that we’re 5x112 that I liked better.

But man I miss that stud conversion, I should’ve pulled those hubs before that car went to the wrecker.

[JVD]

My drilled wheels fit 100% like OEM and do not load the studs. Yes, I will tell you that M12 studs and tuner lugs are garbage.

I'm still curious how this is possible. The lug holes and taper are centered on the 114.3 pattern. Regardless of stud size the stud will be slightly off center in each hole.

[Meow]

Yes, run 5x114.3 no issue on 112 car with a hub centric ring and stud conversion. M14 studs make it harder to fit some wheels because of the bore size on the holes, but a quick drill pass to make the wheel stud hole bore larger and they slip right on.

Do the stack up if youre bored, the bending moment caused by the difference in size is not huge and the machining/casting tolerances of all the mating components ends up being pretty large differences anyway, so the difference in diameter of the pattern isn't really that big of a deal.