WTF is this??!!! Is Audi killing the DSG for a slushbox???

[Optiondoc]

From what I'm reading so far the new S4 and I'm guessing continuing into the RS models, the dual clutch is gone??? Happy I have the last V8 and apparently DSG RS.


http://jalopnik.com/the-new-audi-s4-...sio-1730778195




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[DOCEVG]

Yep; thats what I've read elsewhere. S4, and others, lose supercharger in favor of turbos (having owned S/C'd and turbo'ed Audis, S/C is superior), and lose DSG in favor of 8-spd tip. Backwards if you ask me.
Makes my RS cars, and my B8 S4, that much more valuable, at least to me.

[sc08 lab]

Hmm hopefully by the time the new 5 arrives they will have a new dsg.... Not a chance I ever want a Tiptronic, seems backwards to me 👎

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[Chanman94]

This shouldn't be a surprise considering the RS7, S8 and others use the 8speed ZF transmission. It's just as good as the DSG, and it can handle more torque.

[b6Hate4]

The bigger issue is they are killing the 6 speeds.

Looks like this is my last new Audi.

[Optiondoc]

DSG is way better than any ZF. It has a better feel and still not technically an automatic. The minute I hear torque converter I then look for 3 pedals and surprise! Not an option


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[LINDW4LL]

The bigger issue is they are killing the 6 speeds.

Looks like this is my last new Audi.

Good luck finding a manual trans anywhere in a few years.

Porsche is out (they do have a 7 speed, but it's rare
Mercedes-AMG is out.
Audi is out.
Lambo is out.
Ferrari is out.

[LINDW4LL]

DSG is way better than any ZF. It has a better feel and still not technically an automatic. The minute I hear torque converter I then look for 3 pedals and surprise! Not an option

Get the "slushbox" stigma out of your head. I had the same reaction until I started to think rationally.

The ZF 8 Speed:

~Is MUCH smoother. No more clunky downshifts.
~Shifts about as fast- Difference is nearly imperceivable.
~Is more reliable

[Optiondoc]

dropping the slushbox notion is something I inevitably have to eat being that three pedals are dead and outside higher end cars, dual clutch is hard to find. I've taken the C7 Z06 out in its "slushbox" form and even though shifts are just as fast and I can hear and feel the blip, it's a tough pill to swallow


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[JoshDub]

Yup. I won't be buying any future models.

[Jimmy ny]

They are making the car different. Newer engine and transmission. Probably will get better gas mileage as well.


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[JoshDub]

They are making the car different. Newer engine and transmission. Probably will get better gas mileage as well.


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More snores per gallon as well

[Optiondoc]

Seriously, I'm not buying an RS or S model to be an economy box. Horrible decision.


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[Chanman94]

Seriously, I'm not buying an RS or S model to be an economy box. Horrible decision.


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I wouldn't call an economy box. Sure you don't get the connection you do with a manual. But the ZF transmission improves performance, it will shift faster and better than any human could on a manual. Plus it's probably cheaper to maintain, wonder how much replacing the clutch on the DSGs will cost once that time comes.

[Optiondoc]

I accepted the DSG as in a strange way I felt the herky jerky movements and shifting sounds made me feel more involved. If this is anything like the Z06, it's super smooth in auto mode and manual mode which will strip the drivetrain connection I feel to the car. Shame but I'll just have to accept it as I plan on keeping the 5 for another 2 years or so and going RS7 with the hope it'll get a DSG. There goes that idea.


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[LINDW4LL]

You might as well rip on the DSG as well then for not feeling as involved or raw as a single clutch, AKA E-Gear, R-Tronic, or SMG.

The fact is that the DSG jerk is annoying to the average consumer. Audi is offering the same performance while eliminating it and improving reliability.

Win - Win.

IMO.

[KmorgsRS5]

I love the DSG, maybe it will help keep value to the RS5 over time. If they are going to do an automatic transmission i believe they should still keep a 6speed manual as an option. Seems like only maker in the segment will be BMW offering 6 speed. The new ZF is a great transmission, but it isn't as involved as the DSG.

[Optiondoc]

The jerky DSG isn't that bad. Learn to control your right foot and it really mitigates it. I mostly drive my car in manual mode as auto is way too lazy and sport auto holds the gear way too long for regular driving.


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[JoshDub]

You might as well rip on the DSG as well then for not feeling as involved or raw as a single clutch, AKA E-Gear, R-Tronic, or SMG.

The fact is that the DSG jerk is annoying to the average consumer. Audi is offering the same performance while eliminating it and improving reliability.

Win - Win.

IMO.

Is it really the same performance? What is the drivetrain loss difference between the two?

[KmorgsRS5]

I don't think the DSG or S-Tonic is jerky at all, especially compared to some of the competitors on the market. BMW's duel clutch almost have violent shifts (compared the transmission in my RS) when the transmission is set in most aggressive setting. Best one i've driven is the PDK, even then i don't think the DSG/S-Tonic is far behind.

[LINDW4LL]

Is it really the same performance? What is the drivetrain loss difference between the two?

That's a tough question to answer with data, but everyone says the ZF is very efficient. I guess we could use APR's data. Although not rock solid, it should give a decent indication of any major differences in drivetrain losses.

Looking at the SQ5 vs B8.5 S4 dynos from APR... The SQ makes more at the wheels than the S4 at both stage 1 and stage 2. They also have data for the C7 A6 3.0T, which uses the 8 speed ZF, and there's only a 3whp difference compared to the S4, both with Stage 1.

The above would indicate that any difference is negligible, but again it's a super small sample size.

[JoshDub]

That's a tough question to answer with data, but everyone says the ZF is very efficient. I guess we could use APR's data. Although not rock solid, it should give a decent indication of any major differences in drivetrain losses.

Looking at the SQ5 vs B8.5 S4 dynos from APR... The SQ makes more at the wheels than the S4 at both stage 1 and stage 2. They also have data for the C7 A6 3.0T, which uses the 8 speed ZF, and there's only a 3whp difference compared to the S4, both with Stage 1.

The above would indicate that any difference is negligible, but again it's a super small sample size.

I thought about doing that too, but given the unreliability or cross dyno comparisons it wouldn't be wise to go off of those numbers.

[UroTuning]

just takes all the driving out of driving a car. you should have to work for your destination and traffic shouldnt be relaxing lol

[mjr034]

I love my DSG, but comparatively, the mechanical losses are greater in these transmissions.

[Nastybutler]

I can understand being upset about the lack of a manual option, but all this hysteria over going to a "slushbox" and getting rid of the DSG is amusing. "Oh no! I'll have a smoother and more reliable transmission that can handle way more torque and gets better milage than my dual clutch transmission. Woe is me."

[Mops@Nemesis]

I love the ZF in my SQ. Shifts are fast and crisp. I felt like the DSG in the S cars was weird. Actually preferred the DSG in my mk6. Now the S-tronic in the RS... she bad

Go to :40 and crank it up!

https://youtu.be/iDKZQ2yT04c

[Optiondoc]

Because I don't want a smooth soft transmission when buying an RS or even S model for that matter. I want to feel the clicks and quirks of it. I want to be as involved as possible. When I heard I had to eat a DSG in order to purchase my car I was already annoyed but now I can't even get a manual as an option on the new S4 and I'm forced to buy a true automatic to make it even worse.


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[leetjon00]

Because I don't want a smooth soft transmission when buying an RS or even S model for that matter. I want to feel the clicks and quirks of it. I want to be as involved as possible. When I heard I had to eat a DSG in order to purchase my car I was already annoyed but now I can't even get a manual as an option on the new S4 and I'm forced to buy a true automatic to make it even worse.


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So don't buy one?

[essfour]

I love the ZF in my SQ. Shifts are fast and crisp. I felt like the DSG in the S cars was weird. Actually preferred the DSG in my mk6. Now the S-tronic in the RS... she bad

Agreed!

And I also agree that the ZF 8 Speed is also a great transmission - I am very impressed with it in my wife's tuned X3 35i.

Also - this is more or less the same transmission unit found in not only the RS7 but also true sports cars and GT's such as the F-Type Jag, Bentley GT and etc - people need to realize that this is a great improvement for the S model cars.

[Optiondoc]

I sure hope the transmission is nothing like the Ftype. That was hands down the biggest POS I've ever driven around (V8S)


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[Guitarmageddon]

By the time Im ready for an upgrade from the b7, CPO 2014/15's will be pretty affordable. Then that will take me to the 2020's....and god help us whats on the road then....

I think this will be us....FEAR THE FUTURE

That poor robot is so terrified at what has become of the DSG's and 6 speed manuals

[Dfw007]

Good luck finding a manual trans anywhere in a few years.

Porsche is out (they do have a 7 speed, but it's rare
Mercedes-AMG is out.
Audi is out.
Lambo is out.
Ferrari is out.

There is still one great independent manufacturer making traditional manuals and basic single clutch manual-auto transmissions. Aston Martin Vantage V8 still offers a manual set of pedals. Their V12S has an auto manual single clutch which is a nice mix of manual and auto, although not as efficient as a dual clutch. In fact Aston will be one of the last ones left producing large displacement engines with no forced induction. All current vantage models are N/A. This will change in 2017 with the new AMG engines, although th v12 will continue...

To the specifics of the thread, I love the DSG in my RS5. I had it on track Monday and there is nothing like the feel of the car under high rpm and heavy throttle in a turn and I decide to change gears. The car has no hesitation and it is barely perceptible. Few cars can do this, PDK and the BMW DSG are all I know of... It always freaks out my instructor when I do this, most cars would spin out or lose control if you changed gears in a turn under high throttle.

[superswiss]

Most of the negative opinions about the DSG come from those who haven't actually driven one, have an early B8 with mechatronic issues or in general have only experienced it in an S. Few seem to realize how much different the DSG is in the RS5. I have a feeling that the ZF8 might indeed be an improvement for the S4 and S5. I was never a particular fan of the DSG implementation on the S cars. It is possible that the next RS4/5 will get an all new S-tronic.

The reality is that most who buy an S with DSG drive it around in D/S all day long and then complain that their automatic transmission is jerky. Nothing wrong with that, but for those people the ZF8 is a much better fit. The DSG is a shift-by-wire manual transmission with fully automatic mode for convenience. It's better when driven in manual mode most of the time, whereas the ZF8 is better if driven in automatic modes most of time.

Coincidentally, I attended a BMW event last month and I was driving several different models all with the ZF8 transmission obviously. One of them was a 335i with M Performance Package. I don't know why people think the BMW ZF8 is great, but coming from the RS5 I was like no thank you. I liked it best in the 650i convertible I drove. I also had various Audi loaners with the ZF8. Petrol and Diesel A6s and most recently a 2016 Q5 3.0T. All great cars for comfortable shuttling around all day in D/S. I avoid manual mode like the pest in those cars, though. Even though the torque converter locks up above 30mph or something like that, the rubbery mushy feel when shifting is why I stuck with manual transmissions for the past 15 years until the RS5 came along.

[Optiondoc]

Yep same here. The DSG on the RS5 is almost, not quite but almost as good as the PDK. The automatic or "performance" automatics I've driven aren't anywhere near as good as the DSG. I hope the B9 RS gets a dual clutch.


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[The Outrage]

It will be interesting to see if the RS 4 and RS 5 models also use the ZF 8HP. I wonder if the reactions on this forum will be the same...

[flatsick]

This shouldn't be a surprise considering the RS7, S8 and others use the 8speed ZF transmission. It's just as good as the DSG, and it can handle more torque.

this exactly, there is nothing wrong with torque converters...

[Stifens]

Nothing wrong with the ZF 8 speed Tip :) my dad has it in his A7 bi-turbo TDI. He has a Revo stg1 tune as well, which makes the car produce as much torque as a stock RS6/7. I must say I really like that transmission. Never been a fan of automatic, but that one really opened up my eyes. there is hope after all, imo.

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[B8 S FOR]

Thank the EPA....WTF!

[fasttoys]

Love the DSG in my RS5, I preferred the DCT in my previous E90 ZCP M3. (it was more raw jerky compared to RS5) ZF 8 speed O no what the F no manuals NOW no dual clutch Trans lol Ferrari here I come who needs retirement.
I have a 7 speed manual in my 15/Z06, it was the only new two seat sports car I could find with a manual. I will have a Alfa TCT 6-speed automatic transmission with a twin clutch and paddle shifters in my Alfa REMEO 4C when she arrives in December. If I keep eating like I do I wont be able to fit in that little car..


We will be lucky to get a 4 speed automatic after the EPA tree huggers take down VW for cheating.
Today:
Volkswagen stock drops 20% on US diesel recall probe that could cost the company 18 billion dollars in penalties

[leetjon00]

Love the DSG in my RS5, I preferred the DCT in my previous E90 ZCP M3. (it was more raw jerky compared to RS5) ZF 8 speed O no what the F no manuals NOW no dual clutch Trans lol Ferrari here I come who needs retirement.
I have a 7 speed manual in my 15/Z06, it was the only new two seat sports car I could find with a manual. I will have a Alfa TCT 6-speed automatic transmission with a twin clutch and paddle shifters in my Alfa REMEO 4C when she arrives in December. If I keep eating like I do I wont be able to fit in that little car..


We will be lucky to get a 4 speed automatic after the EPA tree huggers take down VW for cheating.
Today:
Volkswagen stock drops 20% on US diesel recall probe that could cost the company 18 billion dollars in penalties

Looks like the emissions scandal affected some A3s sold in the U.S. Hope this doesn't bleed over into the 5s. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-affected.html