what is wrong with my engine?

[2004B6S4]

I'm hoping some of the more knowledgeable people can help me diagnose an ugly noise my engine has been making. This is a 2004 S4 with 152k miles, build date 09/03. I bought it at around 113k miles with no knowledge of prior maintenance.
I first noticed an odd intermittent noise about a year ago and posted this thread about it: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ify-this-noise which led me to believe the noise was probably the intake manifold flapper. Well it turns out it wasn't the flapper, and the noise gradually started happening more and more often while getting louder and louder. Now, I hear a pretty loud clacking from the back of the engine every time I drive long enough to get it thoroughly warmed up. I believe the signs are pointing towards bad cam adjusters and I'm worried it could skip timing but I haven't had time to really tackle the problem so I've pretty much just had the car parked for the past 6 months or more, other than going for a short drive once every few weeks.

here's a recording I made of a cold start -


and here's what it sounds like when it's warm -


The odd thing is that there are no codes related to timing or cam adjusters or misfires at all. Looking at the misfire counters in vcds I may see an occasional misfire on a random cylinder, but it never logs any fault codes for misfires. Here is an autoscan that I saved right after recording those videos -

Monday,14,September,2015,07:31:05:18368
VCDS -- Windows Based VAG/VAS Emulator Running on Windows 10 x64
VCDS Version: 15.7.1.0 (x64)
Data version: 20150904
www.Ross-Tech.com


VIN: WAUPL58E34A106488   License Plate: 


Chassis Type: 8E (8E - Audi A4/S4/RS4 B6/B7 (2001 > 2008))

Scan: 01 02 03 08 09 0F 11 15 16 17 18 25 36 37 45 46 55 56 57 65

          67 69 75 76 77

 

VIN: WAUPL58E34A106488   Mileage: 244940km-152198miles

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 01: Engine        Labels: 079-910-560-BBK.lbl

   Part No SW: 8E0 910 560 A    HW: 8E0 907 560 

   Component: 4.2L V8/5V      G   0020  

   Coding: 0007711

   Shop #: WSC 22309 444 58966

   VCID: 23450E7EE192382660-5140



No fault code found.

Readiness: 0000 1000



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 03: ABS Brakes        Labels: 8E0-614-517.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 614 517 Q

   Component: ABS/ESP allrad      3033  

   Coding: 04595

   Shop #: WSC 06435  

   VCID: 3663C72A1200BD8EB7-5124



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 08: Auto HVAC        Labels: 8E0-820-043.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 820 043 AD

   Component:   A4 Klimaautomat   1319  

   Coding: 00000

   Shop #: WSC 63351  

   VCID: 63C54E7EF112782620-5124



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 09: Cent. Elect.        Labels: 8E0-907-279-8E2.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 907 279 F

   Component: int. Lastmodul  USA 0517  

   Coding: 01013

   Shop #: WSC 63351  

   VCID: 3561C0260F06B696BE-4B1A



1 Fault Found:

01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 15: Airbags        Labels: 8E0-959-655-84.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 959 655 C

   Component: Airbag 8.4EP        3001  

   Coding: 0010707

   Shop #: WSC 63351 000 00000

   VCID: 377DCA2E450A4486AC-5140



1 Fault Found:

01217 - Side Airbag Igniter; Driver Side (N199) 

            002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - MIL ON



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 16: Steering wheel        Labels: 8E0-953-549.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 953 549 N

   Component: Lenksáulenmodul     0611  

   Coding: 04041

   Shop #: WSC 63351  

   VCID: 3E73DF0A3A3075CE6F-4B00



3 Faults Found:

01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent

01303 - Telephone Transceiver (R36) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent

01301 - Control Module for Voice Recognition (J507) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 17: Instruments        Labels: 8E0-920-9xx-8E2.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 920 980 M

   Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRS. RB4 D37  

   Coding: 03200

   Shop #: WSC 22302  

   VCID: 3663C72A1200BD8EB7-5140

   WAUPL58E34A106488     AUZ6Z0C0268136



3 Faults Found:

00779 - Outside Air Temp Sensor (G17) 

            29-10 - Short to Ground - Intermittent

01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent

01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 36: Seat Mem. Drvr        Labels: 8E0-959-760.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 959 760 

   Component: Sitzmemory R2 F     0305  

   Coding: 00002

   Shop #: WSC 63351  

   VCID: 71E934363BEEDAB6A2-4B00



1 Fault Found:

01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 46: Central Conv.        Labels: 8E0-959-433-MAX.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 959 433 BB

   Component: Komfortgerát T7B    1411  

   Coding: 11852

   Shop #: WSC 63351  

   VCID: 72EB3B3A3EE8E1AE5B-4B00



   Subsystem 1 - Part No: 8E1959801

   Component: Tõrsteuer.FS BRM 0003  



   Subsystem 2 - Part No: 8E1959802E

   Component: Tõrsteuer.BF BRM 0003  



   Subsystem 3 - Part No: 8E0959801A

   Component: Tõrsteuer.HL BRM 0004  



   Subsystem 4 - Part No: 8E0959802A

   Component: Tõrsteuer.HR BRM 0004  



7 Faults Found:

01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386) 

            49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent

01336 - Company Data Bus for Comfort System 

            80-10 - Single-Wire Operation - Intermittent

01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386) 

            80-00 - Single-Wire Operation

01811 - Supply Voltage for Door Controller; Drivers Side (J386) 

            37-00 - Faulty

01559 - Drivers Door 

            37-10 - Faulty - Intermittent

01561 - Rear left door 

            59-00 - Can't Unlock

01562 - Rear right door 

            59-10 - Can't Unlock - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 55: Headlight Range        Labels: 4Z7-907-357.lbl

   Part No: 4Z7 907 357 

   Component: dynamische LWR       D09  

   Coding: 00060

   Shop #: WSC 63351  

   VCID: 04076DE2145CDF1E79-4B1A



1 Fault Found:

01535 - Control Circuit for Right Headlight Range Adjusting Motor (V49) 

            30-10 - Open or Short to Plus - Intermittent



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 56: Radio        Labels: 8E0-035-1xx-56.lbl

   Part No: 8E0 035 195 H

   Component: symphony II NP2    0400   

   Coding: 01225

   Shop #: WSC 87808  

   VCID: 2C57E542DC4CF75ED1-5092



No fault code found.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Address 75: Telematics        Labels: 8E0-035-616.lbl

   Part No SW: 8E0 035 616 A    HW: 8E0 035 616 A

   Component: Telematik USA1      

   Coding: 0005303

   Shop #: WSC 22302 444 54575

   VCID: 23450E7EE192382660-5140



1 Fault Found:

01531 - Emergency Battery 

            002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - MIL ON



End-------------------------(Elapsed Time: 05:22)--------------------------

When looking at blocks 91 and 92 in VCDS at idle while cold, the cam adjustment values generally stay pretty close to spec, like this -


but when it's warm and making that noise, I've seen the actual cam adjustment value go as low as 8 and as high as 15 degrees, while the spec is steady at 12. Both sides vary by about the same amount. Apparently this is still not enough variation to throw a code, but I'm thinking it must be the source of the noise. So is this a case of bad cam adjusters? Or could it be something else like the timing chain tensioner? Thanks in advance for any help!

[BCsniper]

152k miles on a 2004....and it sounds like that?

Yeah, I'd go ahead and plan for a timing rebuild now before anything catastrophic were to happen. It's likely you've got some broken guides that just haven't completely fallen apart yet.

[2004B6S4]

152k miles on a 2004....and it sounds like that?

Yeah, I'd go ahead and plan for a timing rebuild now before anything catastrophic were to happen. It's likely you've got some broken guides that just haven't completely fallen apart yet.

ya I'm thinking with my mileage chances are some guides are bad also. then again it's not unlikely that they were replaced at some point before I got the car. Even if they were, the 2nd set could be bad by now (or it could be that the problem is actually more rare than the hype has made it out to be, regardless of model year?). I'll probably end up installing the whole kit anyways, but I want to be 100% sure of what this before I tear it down. Would suck to sink all that money into the timing components and find out it was something else.

it doesn't consume a lot of oil, I add a quart roughly every 2500 miles or so. I'm thinking the bottom end is probably not too far gone just based on that so it's probably worth it to do the timing and see how many more miles I can get out of this engine.

[Lucca M]

sounds like dreaded chain, probably one of the guides failed or cam adjusters. id at least pull the valve covers and see if chains are loose. thats what happened to my old engine, one of the cam adjusters went bad and chain was loose. didn't throw any timing related codes but i parked it and pulled the motor. thankfully didnt damage engine and my buddy was able to do timing on it and that engine is already back on the road in another car :)

[2004B6S4]

TY lucca, we are thinking down the same path. I'm just hoping to determine the exact problem before I take anything apart...
does anyone know whether or not I'm correctly interpreting the data in measuring blocks 91 and 92? is it normal to see the amount of variation that I'm seeing or no? and if not, are bad cam adjusters the only possible explanation for that variation or could it be something else? how far out of spec does the cam adjustment have to be before it throws a code?

I'm hoping the guys at JHM will come across this and be able to offer some useful advice, I know they watch these forums and are very knowledgeable and experienced with these issues plus they're likely to get a sale of a timing kit out of this... @JHM, you out there?? would be awesome to get your input!!

[2004B6S4]

well I pulled the engine and this is what I found -





lower left guide was completely obliterated, top guide almost completely gone, and upper left tensioner cracked. With both the bottom left and the top guides being gone there was a lot of slack in that middle chain. I feel like I'm incredibly lucky that it never jumped time!




cam adjusters don't look too bad. The one on the right is barely worn at all, and since it took 150k miles for it to get that bad I'm thinking it'll be safe to re-use it for a while and I'll just inspect it again if/when I have to open the motor back up for the electric adjusters. The one on the left is worse though so it will be replaced, the JHM units are nice but I'm already stretching my funds with everything I'm replacing, so I'll probably just go with a used adjuster in good condition.

[E-SWIFT]

You guys got me scared. My 06 B7 has 124k on the clock w/a occasional cold start rattle (1 of 10 ), no warm start rattle, runs great, pulls, strong ,no codes. I was planning to pull the motor during the summer to do the chains, but I'm thinking to up my time table. I'm guessing the entire job w/o labor is about 3k ?......excluding long tube headers.
SIGH

[badger.]

You guys got me scared. My 06 B7 has 124k on the clock w/a occasional cold start rattle (1 of 10 ), no warm start rattle, runs great, pulls, strong ,no codes. I was planning to pull the motor during the summer to do the chains, but I'm thinking to up my time table. I'm guessing the entire job w/o labor is about 3k ?......excluding long tube headers.
SIGH

DIY cost is wholly dependent on what parts you want to replace while the engine is out. Barebones replace all guides is well under $1000 in parts (JHM minimum kit is 750 I think) However cost creeps up as you get adjusters, gaskets, mounts, tools etc..

[Slow4]

You guys got me scared. My 06 B7 has 124k on the clock w/a occasional cold start rattle (1 of 10 ), no warm start rattle, runs great, pulls, strong ,no codes. I was planning to pull the motor during the summer to do the chains, but I'm thinking to up my time table. I'm guessing the entire job w/o labor is about 3k ?......excluding long tube headers.
SIGH

You must be buying parts from ECS and shipping it from Antartica.

1750 gets you intermediate from JHM; guides, tensioners and adjusters...with labor, probably a little over 3K.

Don't think about it, just do it. I know a guy who might have a set of V1 longtube headers for sale

I feel like I'm incredibly lucky that it never jumped time!

VERY lucky! You better thank someone upstairs for the good fortune; two guides gone and zero timing issues


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FulhamFTW]

You guys got me scared. My 06 B7 has 124k on the clock w/a occasional cold start rattle (1 of 10 ), no warm start rattle, runs great, pulls, strong ,no codes. I was planning to pull the motor during the summer to do the chains, but I'm thinking to up my time table. I'm guessing the entire job w/o labor is about 3k ?......excluding long tube headers.
SIGH

I was quoted around $3500 for the JHM intermediate kit installed. That's parts and labor from a reputable JHM dealer. It's not as bad as people think it is if you go with a decent indy shop. I plan on getting it done eventually, but I'm in no hurry. I'm at 145k on original components with no rattle.

[2004B6S4]

You guys got me scared. My 06 B7 has 124k on the clock w/a occasional cold start rattle (1 of 10 ), no warm start rattle, runs great, pulls, strong ,no codes. I was planning to pull the motor during the summer to do the chains, but I'm thinking to up my time table. I'm guessing the entire job w/o labor is about 3k ?......excluding long tube headers.
SIGH

There was a thread with people talking about doing the timing at 100k preventatively. Some were recommending that and others were saying it's ridiculous and that you should wait until you see problems... I used to be in agreement with the latter, but after seeing my engine and how close I came to catastrophic failure, I've changed my mind. If I got another S4 I'd just do it at around 100k. If you're paying for labor it might make sense to wait, but if you've got the space and time to do the job then I say just do it. Although I don't think it would be a huge risk for you to wait until summer

so far I've spent just over 3k on parts and I'm replacing all guides and tensioners, clutch and flywheel, slave cylinder, a/c compressor and related parts, a motor mount, and lot of various oil seals, hoses, etc. Add the cost of a hoist ($150 from harbor freight), the timing tools ($150 from ECS), and a whole bunch of your time

You must be buying parts from ECS and shipping it from Antartica.

1750 gets you intermediate from JHM; guides, tensioners and adjusters...with labor, probably a little over 3K.

Don't think about it, just do it. I know a guy who might have a set of V1 longtube headers for sale



VERY lucky! You better thank someone upstairs for the good fortune; two guides gone and zero timing issues


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

definitely, I am very grateful to still have a motor!



I started receiving some of the parts I ordered today, and I see what looks like a manufacturing defect on one of the guides. It has a weird blob where the plastic is more shiny than the rest, and it has a couple tiny cracks right at the mounting hole. I'm not sure "cracks" is the right term to use, as I'm sure it came from the molding process and not from physical stress. I don't know anything about maufacturing or molding plastic but I don't really feel comfortable installing this part. It looks to me like this could be a weak point where it would be likely to break prematurely, what do you guys think? -






this is a genuine audi part that I got from ECS. you might have to zoom in on the pictures to see what I mean.

[JimmyBones]

I would ask to have them ship you a different new guide and you mail that one back.

Also there is a guy (well one of the best guys to put it lightly!) on Audi-Revolution.net that had a similar problem as you but his upper guide had been broken for so long that the chain dug into the metal retaining pins for the top horizontal guide. It is actually a great thread if you want to read through it.

http://bit.ly/1TnTCyt

[2004B6S4]

Thanks a bunch Jimmy, it's nice to hear your input and that thread is great. The whole thread has a lot of great info, I especially like the part where he shows how to replace the electrical connectors as that's info that I needed! I wonder if his car sounded the same as mine, his youtube link is not working. I normally don't look at any other Audi forums besides this one, since the last time I did it seemed like all the others were pretty dead, but I'll have to start checking over there as well when I need to research something

[VinnysS4]

You must be buying parts from ECS and shipping it from Antartica.

1750 gets you intermediate from JHM; guides, tensioners and adjusters...with labor, probably a little over 3K.

Don't think about it, just do it. I know a guy who might have a set of V1 longtube headers for sale



VERY lucky! You better thank someone upstairs for the good fortune; two guides gone and zero timing issues


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tip or manual?

[evildsmr]

Congrats man! Really dodged a bullet there. Good thing you trust your gut and tore it apart. I'm in the middle of my timing now. Almost done actually just waiting to pull the trigger on an expensive ass clutch. But I'm at about 3k in parts and tools so far. Clutch is the last component. Good luck man!!

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Slow4]

Tip or manual?

6spd; contact jimmybones4. Tell him Slow sent you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[VinnysS4]

6spd; contact jimmybones4. Tell him Slow sent you


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh ok. I had already in the last asked him lol. Finding a used set of tip headers seems pretty tough. I might have to save a little extra to get them from jhm. I wish they weren't so darn expensive. But I guess if you factor in the cost/value of the down pipes, they are only like 1500. Good looking out though. One question I had asked JimmyBones that he didn't answer, is what's so different between the two? Is it the clearance that needs to be made for the transmission cross member?

[2004B6S4]

FYI the Denso compressor on rockauto is not the exact same part as oem but without the Audi box, which was what I thought I was going to get. This is actually the Denso "first time fit" line, which is a whole different line of parts according to their website - "DENSO First Time Fit® provides aftermarket products built and tested to OE-standard, for a precise fit."

So it's not the same part that was manufactured for audi, being sold independently. It is a part that was manufactured specifically for the aftermarket. oh well I will install it and hope it is just as good. I also bought the B7 version of the Luk clutch and flywheel from rockauto, and I think those actually are the exact oem parts but who knows

[2004B6S4]

sigh.... so I decided I would return that guide to ECS and get a different one in the order I was placing with GAP... I got that one and it has the same issue:



I contacted the guy at GAP and he said that all of these parts are like that. The original one on my engine is still intact and doesn't look like that, though. I wouldn't feel safe re-using the 13 year old guide but I don't feel safe with either of the new ones I got, either. The all-plastic guides I received with different part #'s aren't like this:



since I got two of them with the issue, it seems like they probably manufactured a whole batch like that. What next, you guys think I should raise a stink with AoA about it? It's such a small defect, most people would probably look at it and not even consider it to be a defect, but I'm sure all you guys who know the fear of timing chain failure understand my concern. or am I nitpicking over nothing?

[924Carrera]

Honestly, it looks fine. It looks like a cosmetic defect caused by something in the molding or mold release process or possibly just the surface of the mold itself. I do not think it has any kind of structural impact at all. And by "I do not think," I mean I would use it in my lemon of a B6 without hesitation. I totally understand your caution and it's good that you are inspecting the parts for flaws, but I would absolutely NOT use the old guide instead of this one.

As for your comments about the AC compressor...since the OEM Denso ones seem to frequently fail around 100k or less, I don't think you could do much worse. I ended up with a Nissens one due to the Densos all being sold out everywhere I tried to buy, and I'm confident it will be fine, at least for as long as the OEM one was. The crappiest part of my AC job was flushing the lines out because the flush machine I used completely sucked and when I do it on my other car I'm going to use a different system. However, make sure you do flush those lines out thoroughly or even the most robust compressor on planet earth will prematurely fail if it gets metal shavings through it. And replace your inline filter/orifice tube! The shop that worked on my car before I bought it actually replaced the compressor too...and it promptly failed (which they took no responsibility for...go figure) because 1) they screwed up the O-ring install so badly that the O-ring was protruding outside the line fitting, causing all the compressor oil to leak out, and 2) they didn't replace the orifice tube or the receiver/dryer and it was completely clogged with metal shavings.

[4ty-phive]

May I ask a (dumb) question? Why are these guide made out of plastic? Why not make a metal guide with a plastic top? Just wondering.

[pandapod]

May I ask a (dumb) question? Why are these guide made out of plastic? Why not make a metal guide with a plastic top? Just wondering.

I think it has something to do with metal on metal movement...dont want metal chain rubbing on a metal guide, or else you'll get metal flakes (totally wild guess but sounds good!). What they need to do is make it with a stronger plastic, or whoever molds these for Audi needs to do it better lol.

[924Carrera]

I think it has something to do with metal on metal movement...dont want metal chain rubbing on a metal guide, or else you'll get metal flakes (totally wild guess but sounds good!). What they need to do is make it with a stronger plastic, or whoever molds these for Audi needs to do it better lol.

Well that's why he said "with a plastic top," meaning the structure of the guide would be metal and the actual chain surface would be a layer of plastic or phenolic laminated onto it. To be honest, it's a good question and I don't really know the answer. "Cost" is one that springs to mind, but it's not like we're talking about an economy car.

I don't think the plastic is lacking in strength, but it is inside the engine and faces a combination of constant extreme heat cycling (more than the cooling system plastics) and physical tension from the chain, plus the abrasion of the chain moving over it. That being said, other manufacturers have managed to make guides that last much longer. For example, my friend's MazdaSpeed3 needed the timing service done because the CHAIN had stretched. He bought guides to replace them while he was in there, and found that his original guides literally looked brand new.

[bmwpower603]

Well that's why he said "with a plastic top," meaning the structure of the guide would be metal and the actual chain surface would be a layer of plastic or phenolic laminated onto it. To be honest, it's a good question and I don't really know the answer. "Cost" is one that springs to mind, but it's not like we're talking about an economy car.

I don't think the plastic is lacking in strength, but it is inside the engine and faces a combination of constant extreme heat cycling (more than the cooling system plastics) and physical tension from the chain, plus the abrasion of the chain moving over it. That being said, other manufacturers have managed to make guides that last much longer. For example, my friend's MazdaSpeed3 needed the timing service done because the CHAIN had stretched. He bought guides to replace them while he was in there, and found that his original guides literally looked brand new.

Speaking of guides. Look what came in the mail today for my 2004 s4!! Upgraded main timing chain guide and tensioner!! Thank you ECS tuning.




Sent from my SM-G900T using Audizine mobile app

[Slow4]

I don't think the plastic is lacking in strength, but it is inside the engine and faces a combination of constant extreme heat cycling (more than the cooling system plastics) and physical tension from the chain, plus the abrasion of the chain moving over it.

Ding. Ding.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[2004B6S4]

So I thought I'd update this old thread in case anyone finds it in a search, to let you all know the outcome. After replacing all the guides and tensioners, the engine purrs. As I mentioned in the earlier posts, it wasn't making that noise until after driving for a little while and getting everything completely warmed up. Well here are a couple videos that show how it sounds now, after hours of spirited driving - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHfwt3MB4zU , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4F5fnP0RONg

The almost complete list of parts replaced incluides: Clutch & Flywheel (went oem but upgraded to the B7 version of both) + slave cylinder, throwout bearing and pilot bearing, all new guides and tensioners, one JHM adjuster sprocket on the drivers side, piggy pipes and O2 spacers, A/C compressor + orifice tube & dryer, drivers side motor mount (passenger side also replaced recently, both oem), all o-rings for the a/c system, all coolant pipe o-rings, oil cooler and dipstick and oil filter housing o-rings, front and rear main seals, lower oil pan resealed, trans input shaft seals, front cv shafts rebuilt, replaced all brake/clutch slave fluid, replaced trans and diff fluid. Was able to get a good look at my center driveshaft bearing and verified it is still good, which is a relief but I still have a vibration somewhere in the drivetrain that I've gotta figure out. Replacing my 2 bald tires and getting an alignment is my next step...