Audi says I need a new cylinder head

[Homer_J]

Hello all!
I'm looking for some advice and maybe some expertise from the community. I posted this on another forum as well to try to expand my audience...

Quick timeline:
-bought a 2009 Audi A4 Quattro 2.0T about 6 months ago. It had 100k miles on it, now has about 110k. Love the car (prestige, black/black).

-Car consumed a lot of oil, I was over the mileage of the class action lawsuit but went to the dealer anyway to ask if there was anything they could do for me. Incredibly they did the oil consumption test stage one (failed) and then stage 2 with 4 new pistons at no cost to me (my lucky day right??) Told me that while they did the work, they discovered my engine was a junkyard engine (news to me, nothing in the carfax), so the mileage is unknown on it.

-Got the car back, now it doesn't run well at very low RPM. (Never had an issue before the piston job) Idle is Ok but if you try to crawl at slow speed, it will hesitate, lose power, the EPC light will flash momentarily, and then regain power again. Not unbearable, but it did completely shut off on me once cruising at 45mph flashing the EPC light. (I was wondering if it was toast, but it started right back up). Got a CEL/MIL once for the camshaft position sensor out of range.

-took the car back to the dealer, they opened the top of the head up and said it was not pretty. Said everything was worn badly, cams and head were scored, chain was stretched, and basically the engine was a ticking time bomb that wasn't going to last. Said I needed a new cylinder head assembly, quoted $7500.

-took the car back, consulted an independent audi shop, he seemed honest and he basically agreed that a new cylinder head was realistically the only way to go (based on my story, didn't open it). i suggested maybe a lightly used one? He said it's possible but he wouldn't recommend it, since you might get another one on its way out. He also said the price was ballpark reasonable.

-I stopped driving the car, so as to not do any more damage to it, or my shiny new pistons if it's shaving metal into the oil.

SO... Now I'm stuck with a car that requires 7k worth of work. My options as I see it:
-Pay for the repair
-I'm not a creep, i don't want to sell the car without disclosing the problem, so I could sell it for a huge loss.
-trade it in (might be the best option)
-do the repair myself

Does anyone have any experience completely swapping a cylinder head? A few questions:
I'm mechanically inclined, but no expert. I had the cams out of my b5 1.8 to change the chain tensioner but that's about as deep as I've gotten. Is this doable with a good Bentley-type manual, lots of time, and regular tools?

Does a remanufactured head from audi come assembled, or just a pile of parts?

Anyone know the approx cost for the parts?

Should it be audi remanufactured? (The independent shop seemed to say yes) I see a clean head on eBay right now for $1500, but I'm not experienced enough to know what to look for to tell if it's a quality part.

Any other ideas or insights? Sorry for the long post, just stuck between a rock and a hard place here. I'm afraid to spend too much fixing it because the rest of the car is still 7 years old and will start to develop more problems that need attention.

Thanks!

[new2s5]

Given your situation, I think I would give it a go myself. Save a ton on labor and educate your self along the way.

[GilliamOS]

You're looking around $700-900 for an complete Audi re-manufactured head, without camshafts, plus a $500 deposit. That does not include the timing chain, or misc other parts you might need along the way.

[o1turbo30v]

I would trade that thing in, if it has a junkyard engine who knows what else is in that car/how it was treated.

[98A4TQ]

I think at this point I would also trade in it. What about a shop possibly rebuilding the head? What area of CT?

http://www.mandjauto.net/cgi-bin/search.cgi

not sure if that link is going to work but here's a head with less than 30K for $450 with a 90 day warranty.

[oascom]

Sadly trade it in.... I wouldn't take a risk

[SDF1]

You could also try calling Audi of USA for assistance but again. I'd trade it in, a 2009 are known to have issues.

[Dub_prime]

I was just wondering how the hell the dealer didn't notice this when they did the tear down for stage 1 & 2... Seems they would have denied the repair on that basis.

[Homer_J]

You're looking around $700-900 for an complete Audi re-manufactured head, without camshafts, plus a $500 deposit. That does not include the timing chain, or misc other parts you might need along the way.

Thanks, this is helpful. I'm wondering what other parts are necessary but not included. I've been reading this basic Audi 2.0T training PDF and doubting my ability to assemble this thing properly... http://www.vaglinks.com/vaglinks_com...fsi_engine.pdf
Fancy cam adjusting solenoids etc. might be over my head. Not sure if parts like that would come with the head or not... --Does anyone know how much the cams cost from Audi?
-also are there any special tools required or any specialized skills for any of the required steps?

I would trade that thing in, if it has a junkyard engine who knows what else is in that car/how it was treated.

True, however with new pistons and a new head, it seems the only other big ticket item is the automatic transmission (which seem fairly reliable? Correct me if I'm wrong...) The turbo has about 30-40k on it. It was not boosting properly when I test drove the car before purchase and it was replaced with a lightly used one. Everything else on the car seems to work well. I searched for several months to find a Prestige in this color combo for a decent price, which is why I'm reluctant to give the car up for some other car I won't like as much. One dealer offered me 9k for trade in value, which was dissapointing. So I'm losing money if I get rid of the car as well.

I was just wondering how the hell the dealer didn't notice this when they did the tear down for stage 1 & 2... Seems they would have denied the repair on that basis.

I wondered the same thing and asked... His response was that they didn't even open the top of the head to replace the pistons. He said they unbolt the head from the block and just slide it off the pistons and replace them. Then slide it back on.

[primea6]

How much are you looking to sell it for?

[Homer_J]

How much are you looking to sell it for?

Well I'm trying to see if I can keep it obviously. If the repair didn't seem practical, i would probably take 12k for it. I put it on Craigslist to see if anyone had any interest for 13k while I'm investigating the possibilities. I paid 16.5k for it about 6 months ago.

[Homer_J]

I think at this point I would also trade in it. What about a shop possibly rebuilding the head? What area of CT?

http://www.mandjauto.net/cgi-bin/search.cgi

not sure if that link is going to work but here's a head with less than 30K for $450 with a 90 day warranty.

Central CT, thanks I will look into it. (Strangely the part only shows up if you search for a 2010 a4, not an 09) The Audi service guy (not the mechanic) said that the cam wears directly into a groove in the head with no bearing or anything in between, which seems weird to me. But I've never seen it myself. So if this is true, I don't know if the current head is rebuildable or not.

[B44]

Time to invest in a better performance build head from aftermarket if you plan to keep the car.

[Project Quattro]

I doubt the Audi dealer is wrong, but have you had it scanned with VAGCOM to see what errors its throwing? These seem like big problems to materialize out of nowhere in the last 6 months.


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[nerv81]

Have you tried talking to the dealer that sold you the car? Was it an Audi dealer?

[Homer_J]

Have you tried talking to the dealer that sold you the car? Was it an Audi dealer?

It wasn't an Audi dealer. I don't think I will get anywhere with that. It's been over 6 months and plus they didn't necessarily have a reason to know the car's history or issues. It is frustrating that the car drove fine until the pistons were replaced, but I don't think I have a case to blame the audi dealer, especially if it's supposedly showing a lot of wear that would happen over time.

[Homer_J]

I doubt the Audi dealer is wrong, but have you had it scanned with VAGCOM to see what errors its throwing? These seem like big problems to materialize out of nowhere in the last 6 months.

I have not, my old cable that worked with my B5 and vcds lite doesn't make a connection to this car, I guess I need a hex-can cable for this. (Which I'd buy if I decided to tackle this job) I got a check engine light once, the code was P0341 for camshaft position sensor out of range. Let me try to attach a picture of what the dealer wrote.

EDIT: hmm doesn't seem that you can attach pictures on this forum. Ok it said:

SCORING ON CAMSHAFTS. SCANNED SYSTEM FOR FAULT CODES. FOUND FAULT CODE FOR SPORADIC CAMSHAFT TIMING. REVIEWED MVB AND FOUND CAMSHAFTS NOT RETURNING PROPERLY. PERFORMED INSPECTION, FOUND SCORING ON CAMSHAFTS, CAMSHAFT BRIDGE, AND CYLINDER HEAD. ALSO NOTICED CAMSHAFT CHAIN STRETCHED. RECOMMEND REPLACEMENT OF NEW HEAD ASSEMBLY. NOTE: DO NOT RECOMMEND DRIVING VEHICLE, MAY END UP CAUSING FURTHER DAMAGE TO ENGINE. QUOTED $7500.00 FOR REPAIR

[s4baby]

It wasn't an Audi dealer. I don't think I will get anywhere with that. It's been over 6 months and plus they didn't necessarily have a reason to know the car's history or issues. It is frustrating that the car drove fine until the pistons were replaced, but I don't think I have a case to blame the audi dealer, especially if it's supposedly showing a lot of wear that would happen over time.

I would push hard for the dealer that did the pistons to replace the entire engine. Blame the engine condition on the lack of oil. Call Audi of America if they deny your request.

I would argue why they did the pistons in the first place if they are saying it has a "junkyard" engine (whatever that means).

[B44]

call this number audi of america 1800-822-2843 name of the person is elena shes is the head of the team or something her extension is 43334. good luck give it a shot you never know.

[Homer_J]

I would push hard for the dealer that did the pistons to replace the entire engine. Blame the engine condition on the lack of oil. Call Audi of America if they deny your request.

I would argue why they did the pistons in the first place if they are saying it has a "junkyard" engine (whatever that means).

He did like to remind me that "well, with a junkyard engine, you don't know what you've got going wrong in there...etc" I asked him how he knew, said that the flywheel had paint markings on it like it would as a junkyard part. I haven't seen them personally. I do know that my turbo is a used part with paint markings on it. I'm assuming they wouldn't make the mistake of seeing paint on the turbo and claiming the whole engine is not original, but who knows. Maybe it is from a junkyard, I don't have any reason to believe that they're wrong.

At the time I was just thankful they weren't calling to say "it's s junkyard engine, we can no longer do the job" Maybe they just discovered it too late after most of the work was done.

[s4baby]

He did like to remind me that "well, with a junkyard engine, you don't know what you've got going wrong in there...etc" I asked him how he knew, said that the flywheel had paint markings on it like it would as a junkyard part. I haven't seen them personally. I do know that my turbo is a used part with paint markings on it. I'm assuming they wouldn't make the mistake of seeing paint on the turbo and claiming the whole engine is not original, but who knows. Maybe it is from a junkyard, I don't have any reason to believe that they're wrong.

At the time I was just thankful they weren't calling to say "it's s junkyard engine, we can no longer do the job" Maybe they just discovered it too late after most of the work was done.

I would talk to the service manager, and if needed their manager or boss. I would push hard...we're talking about 7 grand here. I have heard from a service technician that if the stage 2 fix doesn't work, they have replaced engines entirely. I wouldn't believe a word the dealer says.

[SDF1]

I agree.
Call Audi of America and tell them you had the car for 6 months and only now after they did oil consumption stage 2, everything went to hell.
They could not have opened the engine to replace the piston rings and not see the issues they are seeing now.
If they do Stage 2 and there is scoring or anything they replace the block or even the entire engine.

[Sales@DriveAuto]

I would be curious when the codes were thrown - you have to remove the timing chain to remove the head (when they replaced the pistons) - if the timing codes were dated after that period, I would think that implicates a failure upon reassembly (speculating). The claims of it being a junkyard motor are largely unsubstantiated and, honestly, misguided - we replace engines with good, low mileage, warrantied examples from Audi dismantlers/recyclers all the time - there's nothing to say your replacement motor (if it is actually a replacement motor) isn't the same sort of situation (namely, a lower mileage example than what came out).

If you choose to have the head replaced (or the camshafts replaced, as that seems to be the issue here), definitely go to an indy. We're not terribly far away; there are a few other good shops in CT as well. Dealers tend to throw parts at a problem rather than diagnose it - a $7500 head replacement may be their quickest solution, when the problem might be able to be solved for a lesser amount of money. A proper diagnosis from a competent indy would be the first place to start.

[ENV²]

Have the Audi dealer cover it. You had none of these problems until they touched it. They are trying to get out of fixing the car. Call AoA and open a ticket as well.

[Homer_J]

I would be curious when the codes were thrown - you have to remove the timing chain to remove the head (when they replaced the pistons) - if the timing codes were dated after that period, I would think that implicates a failure upon reassembly (speculating). The claims of it being a junkyard motor are largely unsubstantiated and, honestly, misguided - we replace engines with good, low mileage, warrantied examples from Audi dismantlers/recyclers all the time - there's nothing to say your replacement motor (if it is actually a replacement motor) isn't the same sort of situation (namely, a lower mileage example than what came out).

If you choose to have the head replaced (or the camshafts replaced, as that seems to be the issue here), definitely go to an indy. We're not terribly far away; there are a few other good shops in CT as well. Dealers tend to throw parts at a problem rather than diagnose it - a $7500 head replacement may be their quickest solution, when the problem might be able to be solved for a lesser amount of money. A proper diagnosis from a competent indy would be the first place to start.

Thanks for the advice, I was a bit surprised when the one Indy that I went to seemed to agree that replacing the whole head was often necessary, and he never offered up a possibility of an easier fix.

Have the Audi dealer cover it. You had none of these problems until they touched it. They are trying to get out of fixing the car. Call AoA and open a ticket as well.

I'll try calling AoA tomorrow and see what they say...


Anyways, if this effort ends up being in vain, anyone else have anything to add about the difficulty level of doing this job myself?

[Homer_J]

Well, not much luck with AoA. They talked to the dealer, and they said they would give me 10% off (don't know if total or just labor). She of course mentioned that the dealer said my engine is not the original engine, "so you know of course, anytime a vehicle has been modified, warranty work is not covered." I tried to explain to her that I'm not talking about warranty work, I could bring in a completely modified car, and if the dealer damages something, it should be repaired. But she said that that would have to be documented somehow.

So back to square one.

[o1turbo30v]

Well, not much luck with AoA. They talked to the dealer, and they said they would give me 10% off (don't know if total or just labor). She of course mentioned that the dealer said my engine is not the original engine, "so you know of course, anytime a vehicle has been modified, warranty work is not covered." I tried to explain to her that I'm not talking about warranty work, I could bring in a completely modified car, and if the dealer damages something, it should be repaired. But she said that that would have to be documented somehow.

So back to square one.

Dude, seriously, dump this thing, or get a used motor for it and drop it in yourself.

[SDF1]

Have them show you proof this is not the original engine!!!

[Homer_J]

Dude, seriously, dump this thing, or get a used motor for it and drop it in yourself.

I think I'm going to attempt the repair myself. At least I know it's got new pistons. I'd hate to get a used one that has the oil consumption issue. I'm going to go to an independent shop, have them take a look at it to make sure they concur that a new head is necessary. Then time for a service manual and some parts.

[Dub_prime]

I would have someone go over it with a fine tooth comb to make sure nothing else was wrong before I would dump any more into it.

[Homer_J]

Well here's my update: Took the car to an independent shop, I was hoping that they would open it up and verify any damage, but they only drove it and tried to see the hesitation I was talking about. Of course it didn't do it while they had it, but they basically said that they don't think that just some scoring on the camshafts would cause this to happen. They also said it was strange that the car totally shut down once while driving, because even if the timing was slightly off etc, or the camshaft position sensor dropped off for a moment, the car would still try to keep itself running. Having them then open the cover and look would have cost me several more hours of labor.

So not feeling like I accomplished anything there I took the car home and decided to look myself. I was planning to change the timing chain and tensioner (since they definitely make more noise than they should) hoping that that would fix it, but since the car was dismantled to this point, I figured I should just do the extra work and take the cam cover off to see if it was a nightmare inside and decide if my money should be put towards a new head instead.

So here's what I found:

The bearing bridge screen was disintigrated and the ball was still stuck behind it. The surface of the bridge seemed to be smooth.

The cams all seem to be smooth along with the seating surfaces that they sit in. Does anyone with more experience have some advice on how to verify that these are okay? Should I go get a micrometer to check the diameters, or just eyeball them to see if they're smooth to the touch? It doesn't seem to be the horror show that I was expecting after the dealer calling it a "ticking time bomb".

Also the cam cover had years of grime caked around it, so the dealer definitely didn't remove it. I don't know if they would use a boroscope type of camera or something nowadays or just peek in through the oil separator. Or didn't look at all, I dunno.

Here's a few pictures, I can take more specific ones of certain areas if anyone recommends it. Full resolution and additional pics can be found here: https://flic.kr/s/aHskhfVrRX

The crisscross lines on the first lobe on the left look weird but don't feel like anything at all, perfectly smooth. The shaft on the right is slightly worn down where it's been sitting in the "bearing" it seems. Not sure how much of a concern that is.




Broken screen with check valve ball inside:

[4ringnut]

Audi says you need a new cylinder head, I say you need a new Audi.

[van462]

I think the marks on the exhaust cam are just some light marks as that cam switches from the different lobe profiles. This thread shows some damage done at the cam bridge. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ehicle-update)

[dracolnyte]

nice garage

[van462]

I dug into my car today and came up short on getting anything done. On the cam bridge, I removed all the hardware and attempted to slide off the cam bridge but it wouldn't move. On the intake cam were the n205 actuates the inner plunger, does the piece with the 2 holes get removed in order to remove the cam bridge. Any tips.

I also pulled my crank pulley off. The lower cover is on very secure. I didn't want my car down for a few days by not having a spare timing chain cover around. It appears it will self destruct when removed.

Any tips on removing the condenser core. I found the tabs to release it but the port where the G395 sensor in doesn't seem to have enough clearance to lift out of the mounts? I was documenting everything to do a DIY but once I got to where I couldn't get the condenser off the right way I stopped.

Last question - Radiator quick disconnects were nice treat. Can the radiator core be rotated with the transmission oil cooler lines still connected. I just removed the entire core and fan assembly.

[name.goes.here]

I would trade that thing in, if it has a junkyard engine who knows what else is in that car/how it was treated.

Agreed. I would not put anymore money into it.

[Homer_J]

I dug into my car today and came up short on getting anything done. On the cam bridge, I removed all the hardware and attempted to slide off the cam bridge but it wouldn't move. On the intake cam were the n205 actuates the inner plunger, does the piece with the 2 holes get removed in order to remove the cam bridge. Any tips.

Yes, you need to remove the piece with the 2 holes. It requires a special tool: T10352. There are 2 versions T10352/1 and T10352/2 depending on how the holes are positioned. The tool I got works for both, you just flip it around. However, apparently someone before me didn't use the tool, and chiseled it loose with a screwdriver in one of the holes, because mine was a bit deformed. I had to carve the holes back round before my tool would fit

I also pulled my crank pulley off. The lower cover is on very secure. I didn't want my car down for a few days by not having a spare timing chain cover around. It appears it will self destruct when removed.

I ordered a new lower cover. I didn't want to deal with it not fitting correctly afterwards and leaking. I was able to get mine off with very little damage though, very carefully and slowly with a screwdriver prying the entire way around multiple times. But it may be wise to have a new one on hand before starting. The metal seems to bend pretty easily.

Any tips on removing the condenser core. I found the tabs to release it but the port where the G395 sensor in doesn't seem to have enough clearance to lift out of the mounts? I was documenting everything to do a DIY but once I got to where I couldn't get the condenser off the right way I stopped.

Last question - Radiator quick disconnects were nice treat. Can the radiator core be rotated with the transmission oil cooler lines still connected. I just removed the entire core and fan assembly.

I didn't remove all of this, are you replacing the core? I just did the service position sliding the lock carrier forward.

[van462]

Thanks for the info. I made my mistake by thinking service position just the radiator core not the entire front. I can see where the trans cooler hoses and A/C lines could do that. I'll look into that for my next attempt.

[DoItAllGarage]

You can drop a 2013 used engine into your 2009! The dealer using the term "junkyard engine" is a fool! An engine pulled from a used low mile Audi is an OEM engine! If you search, you can find a low mile engine for around $2k (w/o turbo, altn,starter, a/c, pwr steering etc.) You will need to swap all your components over. You will spend additional $200-300 new O-rings, gaskets, torque to yield bolts, coolant, oil, etc. Look on ebay and purchase the CD EsaWin for $60 shipped from the UK.
Here are some pictures that might help you out.
http://lovetodiyandmore.com/page8.php?category=19

[Homer_J]

Well thanks for all the advice everyone. Just to sum everything up for the thread:
After seeing that the cams and head didn't look too bad and since I already had the car apart, I replaced:

Bearing Bridge with updated part

Timing chain
-Tensioner
-Chain Guides

Balance shaft chain
-Tensioner
-Chain Guides
(got the "ultimate chain kit" from ECS. Came with everything)

Lower timing cover w/ new bolts

Assorted parts that you aren't supposed to reuse
(Vac pump gasket, fuel pump o-ring, upper timing chain cover gasket and ring, vibration damper bolt, Cam cover seal cap, exhaust cam end bolt)

The car started! ...which was a miracle in itself, doesn't seem to have any leaks. The hesitation I was having seems to be gone so far, (i'm wondering if it was from chain slack.) The engine is still a bit louder than I'd like when you stand next to it with the hood open, but I don't have another A4 to compare it to. Maybe it's normal.

I didn't keep track of how long it all took me, I went pretty slow with lots of manual consulting, especially torquing everything while reassembling. Probably around 25-35 hours. If I had to do it again, I feel like I could probably cut the time in half.

Anyways, hopefully she'll last another 100k miles and I'll be glad that I put the work in.