Upgraded Brake Pads? Or Rotors too? For track days

[njcatchupaudi]

I took my S3 to the track day at the Poconos the other day. First off the car performed amazing. Everyone was shocked at how quick it was around the track (have ECU upgrade btw).

But either way, as great as it did perform, the one thing I noticed is even though I thought my brakes were amazing in the street. Once they really heated up, they were practically useless.

Keep in mind it was five 25 minute runs, so tires and brakes definitely got their fair share of beating. But literally other than the first run of the day after that my brakes were useless. Most of this braking insufficiency was 2 major braking periods from 140 to 100mph and from 140 to 60mph (performed awful here).

I dont have much experience with upgraded brake pads or rotors. My car is a lease so I dont want to go rotors and pads, and would prefer to go just pads but hoping to get some insight from others who have tracked there car and can recommend a good street and track brake pad.

Thanks,

T

[Thumper3]

I took my S3 to the track day at the Poconos the other day. First off the car performed amazing. Everyone was shocked at how quick it was around the track (have ECU upgrade btw).

Are you new to the track or a vet?

I haven't tracked my S3 yet (June 7th I will), but I recently tracked my 328d wagon, and I tracked the HECK out of my MK6 GTI. The GTI had brake fade on the factory setup the first few times I was at Sonoma. Bottomline, I was braking wrong. Got a fluid flush at the dealer after a few track days and got better at my brake zones and was much better overall. I did a mild upgrade (Adam's slotted rotors, Stoptech pads, Motul 600 fluid, and SS lines, and Tyrol bushings) after I MELTED the brakes at Laguna Seca. It should be noted....the brakes worked fine at Laguna.....they caught fire a little once LMAO but they worked fine. Diving into the corkscrew at 60ish was no issue all day. The mild upgrade gave great performance back at Sonoma and Thunderhill. After I moved Pike's Peak gave the little GTI no issues either.

The 328d has factory standard brakes (even though it's the M-sport, since it's a diesel you can not option the M-sport brakes...heathens). This car weighs 3800lbs.....and I had zero brake fade at Pike's Peak, including two extended 30 minute sessions. Granted, the half oval gives ample time to cool the brakes (and the M-sport bumper comes with excellent brake ducts at least) but the infield has some hard braking. But Poconos looks like it has some nice straights as well depending on configuration.

We'll see how the S3 does, but I have to believe in my soul that there is no way my BMW wagon has better factory brakes than an S3. It may have just been your braking method. I may not have hit 140 but going 94 to 30 in a 3800lb wagon is nothing to scoff at. LOL

If you do want an upgrade, switching to a more grabby pad would work, but at the very least you should look at swapping the fluid as well. Pads will grab better and resist fade but if you boil your fluid it doesn't matter. Going farther a good set of slotted rotors will help dump heat without sacrificing the brake area with drilled holes.

Don't worry about the lease, if you track regularly....whatever you put on it now will need to be replaced before lease end anyway, so then you just slap the OEMs back on and you're golden.

[phillyquattro]

Thumper3's advice is as solid as it gets.

What I don't get is you were willing to spend money to upgrade the ECU to go faster but why aren't you willing to spend money on your safety and stopping performance by at least getting pads, rotors, and a fluid upgrade? If you're going to track the car and you're being selective as to which upgrades to do...you should do braking and suspension before you do go-fast upgrades.

[13B]

I took my S3 to the track day at the Poconos the other day. First off the car performed amazing. Everyone was shocked at how quick it was around the track (have ECU upgrade btw).

But either way, as great as it did perform, the one thing I noticed is even though I thought my brakes were amazing in the street. Once they really heated up, they were practically useless.

Keep in mind it was five 25 minute runs, so tires and brakes definitely got their fair share of beating. But literally other than the first run of the day after that my brakes were useless. Most of this braking insufficiency was 2 major braking periods from 140 to 100mph and from 140 to 60mph (performed awful here).

I dont have much experience with upgraded brake pads or rotors. My car is a lease so I dont want to go rotors and pads, and would prefer to go just pads but hoping to get some insight from others who have tracked there car and can recommend a good street and track brake pad.

Thanks,

T

Personally, I've used Carbotech the most, but everyone has their favorite company. (This is with turbocharged RX-7s and supercharged RX-8). You really need to pay attention to the operating temperature range of the pads you are looking to buy and discuss with the manufacturer the necessary bedding procedures. Operating temp of the pads is important, because higher operating temps is not always better. If you are simply not there skill wise, or for that matter not willing to push the car hard enough, you will never get the pads to proper temperature and that is a big problem. In your situation, clearly you were too aggressive for the factory pad and its temp range.

For me, I would run Carbotech Bobcats on the street, and then change front pads into the XP range on the track. These pads were all the same base materials and therefore no need to re-bed when switching from street pads to track pads. As others have stated, stopping repeatedly and efficiently at the track should be the #1 priority.

ATE super blue is a good and cheap fluid. With a bleed kit, you can switch between their blue or orange fluid and ensure when bleeding that you have done a proper job.

[njcatchupaudi]

@ phillyquattro, never said I am not willing to pay for pads or fluids, just dont want to upgrade rotors for several thousand...

@thumper thanks for in depth response. This was my first full track day, had a couple laps at Nurburing, Monticello and one other, but all were 2 or 3 laps with AOA instead of using my car and going the whole day. Also the first time was actually learning about braking etc. Definitely keep me posted how your S3 does and if you have similar results. Also any specific pads or fluids you recommend changing to?

@13B thanks!

[Thumper3]

Operating temp of the pads is important, because higher operating temps is not always better. If you are simply not there skill wise, or for that matter not willing to push the car hard enough, you will never get the pads to proper temperature and that is a big problem. In your situation, clearly you were too aggressive for the factory pad and its temp range.


ATE super blue is a good and cheap fluid. With a bleed kit, you can switch between their blue or orange fluid and ensure when bleeding that you have done a proper job.

Good points on the temp ranges.

As for fluid, double check the state DOT regs, some places it is illegal to run blue fluid on the street. If you're gonna bleed and flush at the track, ok....but seriously, at that point....get a track car and a trailer LOL. The fun about track days is driving your car there, running it hard, and then driving it home (relatively) unchanged.

Also the first time was actually learning about braking etc. Definitely keep me posted how your S3 does and if you have similar results. Also any specific pads or fluids you recommend changing to?

Drop your experiences in this thread;

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...come-as-always

I will be doing the same after I get back.

I generally like an aggressive pad that I can still daily and same goes for fluid. I loved the Motul 600 in the GTI and would probably go back with that. They recommend you flush that every year (although if you track a lot I would do it every 6 months) which for me feels just about right for being a reasonable interval for more track performance.

As I said above, I like driving to the track, keeping the shiny side up, and then driving home without needing a pit crew and a service trailer. These are track days, no one is tracking lap times and there are no trophies. If I am having a blast it doesn't matter if I hit 110 or 100 on that straight. It's funny, I showed my Mom some of my GoPro footage from Sonoma once. She asked how fast I was going around turn 4 (downward off camber banked turn). I said probably around 50-60 at exit, I don't really look at the speedo, feel and the tach are more important. She looked at me and said "But you can go 60mph on the street, what's the point?" LOL It's not about the speed so much as the feeling. BTW, she never took up my offer for her to ride shotgun on the track.

you should do braking and suspension before you do go-fast upgrades.

Very true. The old adagae "You have to go slow to go fast" is golden. Brakes and suspension can often yield faster lap times than power. On the street (unless you're Vin Diesel) you can add all the power you want and never really care about brakes. Braking from 60MPH is braking from 60MPH, doesn't matter if you got to 60 in 3 seconds or 13 seconds. On the track where there are no speed limits that power means you will reach higher speeds between corners, and that's why brakes become a better upgrade.

A car that can do 100 on a straight but has to start braking 100ft before the turn is going to get beat by the car that can only do 85 in that straight but can HOLD that 85 until 30ft before the corner.

[13B]

As for fluid, double check the state DOT regs, some places it is illegal to run blue fluid on the street. If you're gonna bleed and flush at the track, ok....but seriously, at that point....get a track car and a trailer LOL. The fun about track days is driving your car there, running it hard, and then driving it home (relatively) unchanged.

I just checked this out...last time I participated in a track day was fall of 2012. Had zero clue that ATE Blue had been deemed illegal for street usage and apparently discontinued in this small window of time. I still have two unopened cans in my garage.

Definitely agreed on the other points. I would change my XP pads at the track, but that was all of about 20 mins during prep and inspection in the morning. A brake bleed is pretty excessive for a car being driven in.

[phillyquattro]

@ phillyquattro, never said I am not willing to pay for pads or fluids, just dont want to upgrade rotors for several thousand...

A full brake kit will cost you several thousand. Rotors won't cost you near that amount. For example: you can get a set of Adam's rotors front and rear for $500 which are a solid upgrade over the OEM rotors. Parts wise you should be able to get front & rear rotors, pads, fluid, and lines for under a grand. That would likely make a huge difference at your next track day. :)

[camoto]

A full brake kit will cost you several thousand. Rotors won't cost you near that amount. For example: you can get a set of Adam's rotors front and rear for $500 which are a solid upgrade over the OEM rotors. Parts wise you should be able to get front & rear rotors, pads, fluid, and lines for under a grand. That would likely make a huge difference at your next track day. :)

Wait-- Adam's rotors are an upgrade over OEM? For trackdays? Do you mean his rotors offer better stopping power? Please explain this.

[Thumper3]

Wait-- Adam's rotors are an upgrade over OEM? For trackdays? Do you mean his rotors offer better stopping power? Please explain this.

They are a MILD upgrade yes, depending on how you spec them out. If you go silly with over drilled, dimpled and basically remove half the face of the rotor no. LOL

Going from a solid face one piece factory rotor to a slotted one piece is certainly an upgrade, for anything track or street. Increased cooling/heat dissipation and better resistance to pad glaceing is going to help stopping yes. Is it a HUGE upgrade? No. Would I recommend it on a true track car? Not really, you want to step up to the 2-piece lightweight setups for sure.

But even $600 for a set of high carbon iron double slotted rotors is an easy choice for a street car taken to the track for fun occasionally. A mild upgrade is better than no upgrade if you limit your choice to factory brakes or a $2000 BBK you can't afford.

I used Adam's as an example because I have experience with his rotors, ran them on my GTI. There are other similar styled options all in that same price range.

[deadbolt]

Can only confirm if any of the available mk7 braking components will fit in our cars?

[gp813]

Can only confirm if any of the available mk7 braking components will fit in our cars?

Pretty much all of the current braking components that fit on a MK7 R will fit ours. If you notice companies like stoptech have exact same part numbers for the R as they do for the S3.

Thumper, good to see an old fellow MK6 track rat here. I miss that old girl for how much I beat her up around Willow Springs, Auto club and Buttonwillow.

[XLR8 Craig]

Can only confirm if any of the available mk7 braking components will fit in our cars?

MK7 R and S3 are the same, cannot speak for GTi.

[deadbolt]

What about the A3. I was looking at the part numbers of the gti vs the A3 and they have the same rear rotor part number but a different front rotor part number

[Thumper3]

Thumper, good to see an old fellow MK6 track rat here. I miss that old girl for how much I beat her up around Willow Springs, Auto club and Buttonwillow.

Yeah, I still get misty eyed looking at the huge print I have of my GTI crossing under the bridge at Laguna Seca. Really miss the Mk6 sometimes.

[soulflyer]

I am putting some new life into this thread...

I am not happy with the stock S3 brakes. But I have been warned...

Yesterday I went to my 5th track event this year in Calabogie and finally I was able to use my Pagid RS29 pads I waited so long for. In the other 4 events I went through 2 sets of OEM pads. And after the second day they started to glaze over despite a cool down lap…

Now I know why…

I was finishing a 25 min run of fast laps. The pedal started to show fading, it went all the way down to the floor in the last couple of turns, still good braking action but you had to push all the way down. And then the course got black flagged due to a car with a blown head gasket just when I wanted to go on a cool down lap, I had to come in right away so no chance for a cool down lap. But now I was able to measure rotor temperatures using my IR temp gun.

I started with the front left. 495Deg… CELSIUS!!!! That is 923F…. Front right, 460Deg and both rears were at 195Deg.. all Celsius. My buddy behind me in his M3 had the front left at 300Deg C.

That is WAY too much heat in the rotors. Now I know why I had brake fading despite brand new RBF 600 fluid…

The Pagid pads are great, good initial bite and much better control of modulation compared to the OEMs, and not glazed at all, no noticeable wear but the yellow color started to flake off (!!). However today the pedal has still a lot more travel than before the track event. I will have bleed brakes tomorrow. I hope that will help.

So lesson learned: Either I install some sort of DIY cooling ducts for the front rotors or I have to get a BBK. Not sure if slotted rotors would make a big difference.

But I don’t want to shell out 4k CAD BBK (that is what you pay in CAD and with taxes..) because I want to keep my 17inch winter set up (plenty of winter up here) and I planned to go with a dedicated wheel and tire set for the track days in 17x9 with 245-45/17 tires, they are significantly cheaper in this size.

Nice first world problem.. But I have still at least 3 more track events this year…

Anyone with an idea (other than BBK…)?

[ryan_sn]

I am putting some new life into this thread...

I am not happy with the stock S3 brakes. But I have been warned...

Yesterday I went to my 5th track event this year in Calabogie and finally I was able to use my Pagid RS29 pads I waited so long for. In the other 4 events I went through 2 sets of OEM pads. And after the second day they started to glaze over despite a cool down lap…

Now I know why…

I was finishing a 25 min run of fast laps. The pedal started to show fading, it went all the way down to the floor in the last couple of turns, still good braking action but you had to push all the way down. And then the course got black flagged due to a car with a blown head gasket just when I wanted to go on a cool down lap, I had to come in right away so no chance for a cool down lap. But now I was able to measure rotor temperatures using my IR temp gun.

I started with the front left. 495Deg… CELSIUS!!!! That is 923F…. Front right, 460Deg and both rears were at 195Deg.. all Celsius. My buddy behind me in his M3 had the front left at 300Deg C.

That is WAY too much heat in the rotors. Now I know why I had brake fading despite brand new RBF 600 fluid…

The Pagid pads are great, good initial bite and much better control of modulation compared to the OEMs, and not glazed at all, no noticeable wear but the yellow color started to flake off (!!). However today the pedal has still a lot more travel than before the track event. I will have bleed brakes tomorrow. I hope that will help.

So lesson learned: Either I install some sort of DIY cooling ducts for the front rotors or I have to get a BBK. Not sure if slotted rotors would make a big difference.

But I don’t want to shell out 4k CAD BBK (that is what you pay in CAD and with taxes..) because I want to keep my 17inch winter set up (plenty of winter up here) and I planned to go with a dedicated wheel and tire set for the track days in 17x9 with 245-45/17 tires, they are significantly cheaper in this size.

Nice first world problem.. But I have still at least 3 more track events this year…

Anyone with an idea (other than BBK…)?

Do you suspect the stock S3 brakes will be sufficient for AutoX? I intend on going to an event this year at CTC, or next if I can't this time around.

[jpy1980]

I was thinking of Stoptech Slotted rotors with some HAWK pads (if there are any for this application).
Not sure what fluid to run? Also would love to upgrade the SS brake lines too.

Castro SRF

[soulflyer]

Castro SRF

Difficult to source in Canada.
And is it worth 3 times the price than RBF600?

[jpy1980]

Difficult to source in Canada.
And is it worth 3 times the price than RBF600?

Hands down, yes better than rbf600. Look at the wet boiling points. Less need to chAnge.

Less difference than the rbf660, but I'd still rather use Castrol.

If you don't track much, then just stick with the cheaper fluid then.

[ChrisF1]

For any serious tracking, the car needs a BBK. Short of that, you're just going to be managing thermal load and the stock brakes aren't very good at that. It's a heavy car and it's under braked for anything more than spirited driving on the street.

[soulflyer]

Anyone ever seen this one? Looks interesting for those who want to keep their 17" set up for the winter

http://www.neuspeed.com/329/0/0/3293...brake-kit.html

[TCHUN003]

Anyone ever seen this one? Looks interesting for those who want to keep their 17" set up for the winter

http://www.neuspeed.com/329/0/0/3293...brake-kit.html

Always nice to have options. It's hard for me to justify the price when you can get a complete stoptech 355mm kit with calipers, rotors, lines, and pads for less than the Neuspeed calipers alone.

[will13k7]

while that neuspeed one looks really nice, it retains the oem rotors, so how is it improving brake fade with little to no added heat absorption or cooling? the oem brakes seem plenty capable of stopping the car in a hurry, it just can't do it over and over and over again without getting too much heat in the system and fading.

[soulflyer]

I could not find any other solution after marked solution that retains the 17" capability. I was planning to go with slotted rotors anyway either ECS or Stop Tech... ED is too expensive..

[jpy1980]

Btw guys, do you know how many quarts or liters it takes for a full brake fluid flush?

[saxon]

the ttrs seems like a reasonable upgrade that can be done for around $1000 including upgraded pads

[soulflyer]

1L more than enough

yep, just flushed mine last Thursday, one liter...

[hamz01]

I track my car often and aggressively. I run NASA HPDE 4 which is open passing. Going with bigger rotors definitely helps, but pad compound is the most important factor in reducing brake fade.

I have intake, downpipe, intercooler, JB1, springs, tires, and StopTech 380mm brake kit (http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...all-last-night). They are massive brakes that require 19" wheels. The huge brakes have eliminated brake fade for me and make the car an absolute blast on track. There is nothing like being able to brake late and brake confidently, especially at 130 behind something like a GT-R on slicks. I mentioned that I run non-stock tires (Michelin Pilot Super Sports) because it may not immediately come to mind that upgrading tires puts more strain on your brakes. My next set of rubber (Bridgestone RE-11) will be even stickier allowing me to brake even later, working my brakes even harder.

I mentioned pad compound because even with my 15" rotors and 6 piston calipers, here is what my rotors look like after 1 track weekend (seven 20 minute sessions over two days):





As you can see, I still have a bad case of pad transfer. I ran Hawk HP+ pads which are fairly aggressive street pads. Not enough, so I am going over to Hawk DTC 30 which is a low level race pad. I will try to run them on the street (at least during summer) and see if they are suitable. Even the HP+ squeal on the street but some have said the DTC 30 squeal less, somehow.

Anyway, my $.02. Oh, and fluid. But that's a no brainer as there are no drawbacks to running super high temp fluid.

[hamz01]

By the way, I got my bbk from Excelerate Performance. They were excellent and I highly recommend them.

[ChrisF1]

If you're going to more track oriented pads, would highly recommend either the PFC01/08 compounds or Ferodo D1.11's. The later are my current track pads and have amazing stopping power. A bit loud on the street but awesome.

[hamz01]

If you're going to more track oriented pads, would highly recommend either the PFC01/08 compounds or Ferodo D1.11's. The later are my current track pads and have amazing stopping power. A bit loud on the street but awesome.

Good to know, thanks. What site do you use to buy pads?

I am very interested in a track pad that's passable on the street. I don't drive very often so I can deal with some squeal, as long as they're safe.

[ChrisF1]

Clark at Apex Performance is awesome.

[will13k7]

Going with bigger rotors definitely helps, but pad compound is the most important factor in reducing brake fade.

... says the guy with 380mm rotors. haha, j/k. good to know and nice setup you have there.

[hamz01]

... says the guy with 380mm rotors. haha, j/k. good to know and nice setup you have there.

Lol I mostly learned that because of the very fact that I have a massive setup. When I bought the kit, I thought to myself that I could run any moderate pad and have no issues, but that is not the case. I have really uncomfortable vibration as a result of the pad transfer to the rotor so I'm really hoping the more aggressive pad will "clean" the rotors so I don't have to get new steel rings.

[jpy1980]

I had the hawk Dtc 60 pads on my WRX and they were awesome. Very confidence inspiring. Only problem was that they were not street friendly. For that I just swapped out to the hawk HPs street pads

Not sure if I want to keep doing that with my s3. Swapping out pads once a month was a hassle.

[Arrested_Decay]

Another vote for Castrol SRF. The wet boiling points are what you want to pay attention to.

Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk

[SR7D1]

Great to see a fresh thread on track day pads! Everything I searched is old? But, two of you mention pads that are either not available for the stock calipers, or hard to source? I have been working with 2 vendors:
Excelerate and Zeckhousen. Both great vendors! David mentioned the Ferodo DS2500 as a dual purpose pad but I have read some poor reviews on that pad here on AZ? The other pad mentioned is the Porterfield R4 (not R4-S). The Porterfield is a race pad, not hybrid.

Both of those fit the stock calipers, front and rear.

I can't find the Hawk DTC series for the stock calipers? I have been a Hawk fanboy for years, but realize that the track/race pad options for the stock calipers are not as plentiful and the guys who have upgraded to a BBK.

[soulflyer]

Interesting. I have been searching for Race Pads for the stock calipers for almost 10 months now.
All I found are Pagid RS29, which I use on a daily base without problem other than the occasional squeal (my 7 year old asked me if I drive a school bus..)

I got this answer from Hawk Dec 17 2015 after I inquired about pads for our stock calipers:

Hi
Currently, we do not have any plans to produce pads for your 2015 Audi S3.

Best regards,


Edwin Mangune – Sales and Tech
[O] 626.966.3648 [M] 626.321.7211 [F] 626.236.4353
4805 N. Vecino Dr. Covina, CA 91722
Hawk Performance Products Group

But I am interested in the Porterfield Pads since the Pagids are 450CAD... but all I found is that the Porterfield homepage is not accessible at the time I am writing this and on some vendor sites I found pads only for the rear brakes...

Would there be a link?

[SR7D1]

Interesting. I have been searching for Race Pads for the stock calipers for almost 10 months now.
All I found are Pagid RS29, which I use on a daily base without problem other than the occasional squeal (my 7 year old asked me if I drive a school bus..)

I got this answer from Hawk Dec 17 2015 after I inquired about pads for our stock calipers:

Hi
Currently, we do not have any plans to produce pads for your 2015 Audi S3.

Best regards,


Edwin Mangune – Sales and Tech
[O] 626.966.3648 [M] 626.321.7211 [F] 626.236.4353
4805 N. Vecino Dr. Covina, CA 91722
Hawk Performance Products Group

But I am interested in the Porterfield Pads since the Pagids are 450CAD... but all I found is that the Porterfield homepage is not accessible at the time I am writing this and on some vendor sites I found pads only for the rear brakes...

Would there be a link?

My bad, just noticed this reply. Here you go!

https://www.zeckhausen.com/catalog/p...ducts_id=17351