Audi A4 06 Cam Follower and Cam Lobe damaged....Need some advice..

[mfdk]

Hi Lads,

I just bought an Audi a4 06 B7 with 123k miles, exterior and interior are in pristine condition but it has some serious problems. First of all i got this car as a project car from the auction for $2,500 through my Cousin who's a dealer, i knew it had problems but using vagcom didn't show anything serious. Car drives ok on highway but it has sluggish acceleration and really rough idle (shakes, vibrates below 800rpm), check engine light on and if i remember correctly it had 3 codes (boost pressure something, Camshaft intake sensor and some exhaust leak (can't remember because i disconnected the battery and all the codes got cleared and have not come back).

At idle it also has that loud ticking sound, a bit like diesel coming from the back of the engine around the cam tensioner and HPFP, it just had a timing belt replaced according to the auction details and when i took it apart it does have a brand new belt and pulleys on it. After doing some research i came across the big failure rate for HPFP with B7's. So i took it apart and this what i found (see picture below), do i have to change the camshaft lobe it does look beaten up but still in one peice, also the car had some huge oil leak coming from the front of the engine, have not been able to determine where its leaking from.

here for the pics https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resi...hint=folder%2c
What you guys suggest...

Thanks a bunch

[JDillon15]

Snag a picture of the end of the HPFP.

Also, the ticking ususally is the cam chain tensioner on the back of the engine. Those wear out.

[onedumslack]

I can't tell if that's a hole in the cam follower but if it is then I'd get that thing to throw codes again and get a dealer to inspect it once it's got codes to have Audi replace it under the recall. Not sure how cars from auctions work with recalls but I'd at least find out if you can get them to replace everything.

[mfdk]

Snag a picture of the end of the HPFP.

Also, the ticking ususally is the cam chain tensioner on the back of the engine. Those wear out.

Unfortunately i have already put everything together so no picture of HPFP but it was in perfect condition, no signs of damage or scars at the tip of it. I did take a look at the tensioner it was compressing up and down as i was rotating the crack pulley. Is it normal to be able to push the tensioner down with the fingers...shouldn't it have some force...?

[mfdk]

I can't tell if that's a hole in the cam follower but if it is then I'd get that thing to throw codes again and get a dealer to inspect it once it's got codes to have Audi replace it under the recall. Not sure how cars from auctions work with recalls but I'd at least find out if you can get them to replace everything.

The cam follower still holding its last breath, there is no hole yet but i sure believe there will be one soon, camshaft got a beating too. I called Audi and they told me that they can't guarantee if they would give me any assistance since the extended warranty is up and its past 120k miles, but they told me that I've got to take the first step and take it to a Dealer and pay for the diagnostics and then give them a call with the diagnostic information. Like i said they couldn't give me a straight answer but I'm hoping they will assist me on this even though its past 120k fingers crossed.

Also forgot to mention that the car smokes quite a lot, especially when you let go of the gas pedal or your on the process of stopping..!

[JDillon15]

The cam follower still holding its last breath, there is no hole yet but i sure believe there will be one soon, camshaft got a beating too. I called Audi and they told me that they can't guarantee if they would give me any assistance since the extended warranty is up and its past 120k miles, but they told me that I've got to take the first step and take it to a Dealer and pay for the diagnostics and then give them a call with the diagnostic information. Like i said they couldn't give me a straight answer but I'm hoping they will assist me on this even though its past 120k fingers crossed.

Also forgot to mention that the car smokes quite a lot, especially when you let go of the gas pedal or your on the process of stopping..!

Yeah. It's a crapshoot if AOA will help since you're past miles. Its 10 years, 120k, so they car is almost to old as well. I'd be careful how much you let the dealer do. At some point, it might be cheaper to do an engine swap, if you have the means.

[mfdk]

Here is a little update,

I took the car for a drive and after 10 minutes of driving check engine light came on, got my vagcom tool scanned it and got " P0011 -Camshaft A (Intake): Retard Setpoint not Reached (Over-Advanced)". Car starts leaking oil pretty bad from the front of the engine, i have not managed to find the source because it only leaks when cars is on the move or has been on for a while. Based on what i have been reading P0011 in most cases has something to do with low oil pressure, and since I'm loosing a lot when I'm driving that might be the problem...!

Whats you guys think...

[MoparFreak69]

That camshaft is done. It needs replaced. If you don't and just throw a new cam follower in there it will chew through it very quickly. I wouldn't bet on Audi helping you out. Your oil leak is most likely a camshaft seal.
If you aren't a mechanic be prepared for a pretty hefty bill. I just did a timing belt, valve cover gasket, camshaft, cam follower and a carbon removal on an '06 and even with 'buddy' prices and no part markup at all it still ran $1200. It took a full day and a half to complete everything. Poor guy just bought it from a dealer a few months before. They told him all maintenance was up to date and without Audi knowledge he got taken.
While you are that far in it, might as well pull the head and have a good look at everything inside too.

[Sanjman]

since it's a project car you should start pulling it apart and inspect everything. Stop driving on it if you plan on spending less money........

[mfdk]

That camshaft is done. It needs replaced. If you don't and just throw a new cam follower in there it will chew through it very quickly. I wouldn't bet on Audi helping you out. Your oil leak is most likely a camshaft seal.
If you aren't a mechanic be prepared for a pretty hefty bill. I just did a timing belt, valve cover gasket, camshaft, cam follower and a carbon removal on an '06 and even with 'buddy' prices and no part markup at all it still ran $1200. It took a full day and a half to complete everything. Poor guy just bought it from a dealer a few months before. They told him all maintenance was up to date and without Audi knowledge he got taken.
While you are that far in it, might as well pull the head and have a good look at everything inside too.

After putting the new cam follower last night, i realized the noise has disappeared from the rear of engine, but motor still vibrates at lot at idle and has no power when hitting the gas pedal, eventually it will pick up the speed. After that i went ahead last night and ordered a head gasket kit and the intake camshaft, thing that I'm struggling the most is taking the camshaft sprocket off, on audi b5 v6 had the camshaft pullers, what is the best tool to pull that sprocket off..!

Also since I'm changing the intake camshaft I'm going to need the camshaft locking tool, they are not cheap do any store rent them out...!

Thanks

[mfdk]

since it's a project car you should start pulling it apart and inspect everything. Stop driving on it if you plan on spending less money........

I'm not driving it, so yeah as i mentioned above i ordered all the necessarily parts.

Thanks

[mfdk]

Do you guys think its a good idea to change the timing chain and its tensioner while I'm in this mess even though they look fine...!

cheers

[MoparFreak69]

As long as you are careful you can do the camshaft replacement without the cam locking tools. When I did the one I mentioned earlier I just loosened the timing belt tensioner so that when I removed the cam cage it didn't try to swing up and out of the head. Worked great. Since you are pulling the head completely it will be a bit easier to do on the bench.
As far as replacing the chain and tensioner, if they are fairly inexpensive might as well throw new ones in while it's apart. If they are spendy and yours look good, shouldn't be any harm in running them.
Before you remove the timing belt, crack the camshaft pulley bolt free with a wrench, or lighty loosen it with an impact, dont spin it off completely until the belt is loosened, it has a good amount of tension on it and could fling stuff at your faceholes.
It should come off of the cam fairly easily. If not some light taps with a rubber or plastic mallet should work. If all else fails you should be able to use a 3 jaw gear puller to pull it off.

[Charles.waite]

That cam is toast. That looks worse than mine in fact.

The good news is replacing the cam doesn't make you want to kill too many puppies and kittens.

You need a new cam and HPFP at a minimum. Inspect the cam chain area and make sure there isn't any damage to the variator or N205. Those parts are expensive to replace. The cam sucks but is totally doable without the cam lock tools. Just mark the chain at the proper position and mark the new cam, then line up the marks.

[mfdk]

That cam is toast. That looks worse than mine in fact.

The good news is replacing the cam doesn't make you want to kill too many puppies and kittens.

You need a new cam and HPFP at a minimum. Inspect the cam chain area and make sure there isn't any damage to the variator or N205. Those parts are expensive to replace. The cam sucks but is totally doable without the cam lock tools. Just mark the chain at the proper position and mark the new cam, then line up the marks.

The HPFP shows no sign of any damage at all, so you think i should still change it out..?

[mfdk]

As long as you are careful you can do the camshaft replacement without the cam locking tools. When I did the one I mentioned earlier I just loosened the timing belt tensioner so that when I removed the cam cage it didn't try to swing up and out of the head. Worked great. Since you are pulling the head completely it will be a bit easier to do on the bench.
As far as replacing the chain and tensioner, if they are fairly inexpensive might as well throw new ones in while it's apart. If they are spendy and yours look good, shouldn't be any harm in running them.
Before you remove the timing belt, crack the camshaft pulley bolt free with a wrench, or lighty loosen it with an impact, dont spin it off completely until the belt is loosened, it has a good amount of tension on it and could fling stuff at your faceholes.
It should come off of the cam fairly easily. If not some light taps with a rubber or plastic mallet should work. If all else fails you should be able to use a 3 jaw gear puller to pull it off.

Since im taking the cylinder head off then i can remove and installl everything on a bench, all i got to disconnect wires, intake manifold and exhaust manifold. Once the head is out i can then go ahead and change the camshaft and if necessraly the chain and its tensioner.

[Charles.waite]

The HPFP shows no sign of any damage at all, so you think i should still change it out..?

It's possible the HPFP was changed in the past then. If the end of the piston is in good shape then by all means leave it and don't replace it. I just assumed the pump was as trashed as the cam.

[mfdk]

It's possible the HPFP was changed in the past then. If the end of the piston is in good shape then by all means leave it and don't replace it. I just assumed the pump was as trashed as the cam.

By "If the end of the piston is in good shape" you are referring to the HPFP tip/end of it right..! I will starting taking some pictures as i go a long with the removing and installing.

Thanks

[Charles.waite]

By "If the end of the piston is in good shape" you are referring to the HPFP tip/end of it right..! I will starting taking some pictures as i go a long with the removing and installing.

Thanks

Yea, the hpfp piston tip is what I meant.

[mfdk]

Yea, the hpfp piston tip is what I meant.

Appreciate it mate, i'll keep you guys updated whatever i find on my way to the bottom of the sea..!

[xbriansg36x]

I don't know if it's related but when my car was vibrating badly I replaced the pcv and n80 valve and now it runs amazingly smooth. Was like a diesel as you described before I replaced those components.

[mfdk]

I don't know if it's related but when my car was vibrating badly I replaced the pcv and n80 valve and now it runs amazingly smooth. Was like a diesel as you described before I replaced those components.

I appreciate your input, that may or may have not been my problem, I'm not sure if you saw my pics early on this thread, my camshaft has taken a sever beating along with my cam follower.

Thanks

[mfdk]

Here is an update, haven't had the chance to work on it so much but i did get thus far. My questions is, i cant make it out of the instruction if i have to remove the lower bolts from the exhaust manifold, i guess i have no option but to remove the turbo and disconnect it from the Cat...!

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

Look at the intake valves...great haaa....

[mfdk]

Alright guys here we go, i finally got the time last night to get dirty and finish this job of removing Cylinder Head. Both intake and exhaust valves are extremely carbonized but no sign of any damages, I'm assuming the best way to clean them is by taking them out and since i have to replace the intake camshaft that makes more sense..! I have couple questions;

Whats the best way to clean the Valves and Piston's head..what to use to clean them..?

When camshafts are in TDC there seem to be a slack on the timing chain (refer to the picture below please), is that normal...? Once i rotate the camshafts the slack is gone on the chains..!

Do i have to take the cylinder head to a machine shop..is this necessarily..?

High Pressure Fuel Pump looks intact to me (refer to the picture below)

cheers

[mfdk]

bump..anyone can asnwer my questions...!

Thanks

[Charles.waite]

Don't need to machine the head, but you can if you want.

Cleaning the Pistons and valves I'm not sure. I would look on YouTube and watch a few videos. I would try to find a method that isn't abrasive.

I think the slack in the chain is normal. The tensioner is oil pressure driven so ideally is should maintain the pressure even when the engine oil pressure is drained out. That could be indicative of a bad tensioner but I'm honestly not sure.

Otherwise is seems everything else appears to be in decent shape.

[mfdk]

Don't need to machine the head, but you can if you want.

Cleaning the Pistons and valves I'm not sure. I would look on YouTube and watch a few videos. I would try to find a method that isn't abrasive.

I think the slack in the chain is normal. The tensioner is oil pressure driven so ideally is should maintain the pressure even when the engine oil pressure is drained out. That could be indicative of a bad tensioner but I'm honestly not sure.

Otherwise is seems everything else appears to be in decent shape.

I appreciate your effort to respond to my request, i went ahead and actually ordered both timing chain tensioner and chains itself, of course im replacing the intake camshaft too, but i'm having a hard time removing the camshaft sprocket on the exhaust side, i tried different pullers and i just cant get it out no matter how hard i tried it. I have seen the blauparts.com has the timing belt/chain rental tool kit but only if you order a timing belt kit from them then they will rent the tools to you, and i dont have the need to buy the kit.

I tried using a rubber mallet but no luck, it just doesnt want to come out....! Im out of ideas and i will not be able to remove the cam cage/craddle unless i remove the sprocket, i wont be able to change the camshaft seal either...!

Any thoughts...

[Biged243]

It's a good idea to replace the chain and tensioner now since you have easy access to it now. It is a pita to do it while the head is in the car and this way you know for a fact what shape it is in. As for the sprocket, you could heat the inner part of the sprocket with a torch, best thing to do is try and get the removal tool. The jaw puller should have done it though.

[mfdk]

It's a good idea to replace the chain and tensioner now since you have easy access to it now. It is a pita to do it while the head is in the car and this way you know for a fact what shape it is in. As for the sprocket, you could heat the inner part of the sprocket with a torch, best thing to do is try and get the removal tool. The jaw puller should have done it though.

The repair manual refers to the Puller T40001, which in reality its not really meant to be used for FSI engines, i used that for v6 2.8l engines and i did try it for b7 but no luck it just won't locking in properly. I did borrow a 3 jaw puller from Autozone but no luck there either. i cant seem to find what the right puller for 2.0l fsi egines is, the only place that seem to have is blauparts.com and they only rent them out if you buy the timing belt kit from them. Based on the pictures from blauparts.com timing rental tool kit it looks like its a 2 jaw puller, dont know where to get it...!

[Charles.waite]

You don't need to pull the sprocket off to get the cradle off. At least I didn't.

I also tried to get the sprocket off, and actually gouged a sprocket arm somewhat badly in the process. I never ended up getting it off and sorted everything else just fine.

[mfdk]

You don't need to pull the sprocket off to get the cradle off. At least I didn't.

I also tried to get the sprocket off, and actually gouged a sprocket arm somewhat badly in the process. I never ended up getting it off and sorted everything else just fine.

On my case, i had a bad oil leak and i narrow it done to the exhaust camshaft seal, therefore i need to take it out. I'm not 100% sure its coming from there because it will never leak unless the car is put back together and is driven for an hour or so, once it gets cold the leak eventually stop, its from the front end, because the oil i everywhere on the timing belt and timing belt covers.

Thanks

[mfdk]

I did manage to get the camshaft out and its sprocket, here is what i found after i started cleaning the Timing chain Housing...at some point in time something must of been broken inside to cause such a damage to inner cover.

[IMG][/IMG]

[Charles.waite]

Looks similar to mine. The tip of the hpfp broke off and gouged out a huge part of the housing when it got caught in the chain. If the housing isn't punctured it's probably ok. Might want to clean out any debris from that oil port just in case though.

Edit: found some pics of mine:
The timing housing with the pump tip still embedded in the wall.


The pump tip and the bottom of my cam follower, I found both floating freely in the timing housing. That can follower was only run for 40 miles and was already showing major wear.


The damaged cam lobe:


The pump piston and broken tip:

[mfdk]

Looks similar to mine. The tip of the hpfp broke off and gouged out a huge part of the housing when it got caught in the chain. If the housing isn't punctured it's probably ok. Might want to clean out any debris from that oil port just in case though.

Edit: found some pics of mine:
The timing housing with the pump tip still embedded in the wall.


The pump tip and the bottom of my cam follower, I found both floating freely in the timing housing. That can follower was only run for 40 miles and was already showing major wear.


The damaged cam lobe:


The pump piston and broken tip:

Well, on mine the HPFP looks intacted, i believe they changed the HPFP and the cam follower and never changed the camshaft, if you look back on my pictures the hpfp is in perfect condition so it must of have been changed.

[Denio24]

I find that soaking the pistons in diesel, then using a brass brush to clean the metal parts works phenomenally.

[mfdk]

I find that soaking the pistons in diesel, then using a brass brush to clean the metal parts works phenomenally.

I just used seafoam and carburetor cleaner and they are good to go, anyhow mine were ok and didn't have that much carbon built up, but the intake valves are the worst.

[dontcare1]

I did manage to get the camshaft out and its sprocket, here is what i found after i started cleaning the Timing chain Housing...at some point in time something must of been broken inside to cause such a damage to inner cover.

What did you end up doing to get the sprocket off?

I would bet that at least the cam follower failed before leaving the metal in the housing to be picked up by the chain...

[mfdk]

What did you end up doing to get the sprocket off?

I would bet that at least the cam follower failed before leaving the metal in the housing to be picked up by the chain...

Well after taking the Cam Cradle/cage out, i used a rubber mallet to give a few taps in the back of the sprocket and it just popped out, I don't know how i did not think of that before but i had wasted hours trying to pull it out whereas all i had to do is tap it from the back not the front.

[mfdk]

Alright I'm about to put everything back together, but i have couple questions;

Since i had to replace the intake camshaft, i also had to remove Cam cradle/cage and in that process i took everything else out including the exhaust cam, timing chain tensioner and the tensioner itself. I'm trying to figure out if i should put the cams in first without the tensioner and the chains, since the sealant used between cam cage/cradle and top cylinder head will harden on contact according to the instructions!

Can i place the camshafts in anyway and place the cam cage on top and tighten all the bolts, once the sealant has harden then i can rotate the camshafts individually so i can get the timing chain and its tensioner back on and then line them correctly using the camshaft lock tool..?

Thanks

[Charles.waite]

I'm pretty sure you have to install the chain and tensioner before you lock in the cams. I'm pretty sure you can't physically get the chain on the cams nor can you get the tensioner onto the head when the cams are locked down.

When I did mine, I placed the girdle on, and the cams ovviously weren't centered in the journals. But I just used a lot of moly lube and very carefully walked them into place with the girdle.

And you're using the factory sealant? Yeesh that stuff is pricey. I was recommended to use Reinzosil sealant by Tyler@IE. it's more similar to an rtv than it is a hard epoxy-like sealant like the OEM stuff.