Talk me out of converting an S4 avant into an RS4 ...or not

[sandspeed]

I think I may be losing my mind. My current stable includes:
- 2008 VW R32 with coilovers, exhaust and intake
- 2002 A4 sedan 3.0, 6 speed with a bunch of mods (Recaros, exhaust, Stasis Touring brakes, alcantara headliner, B7 console, etc.)
- 2003 A4 Avant 3.0, 6 speed awaiting a built 2.8tt swap with SRM K24s. It will be an Abt Sportsline AS400 clone
- 2005 S4 Avant daily driver

I need to part out and sell the A4 sedan, and I may sell the R32 as well. I'm daily driving the S4 now because I enjoy the shit out of it and it isn't exactly in the greatest condition. The interior just needs a clean, but there are some suspension and exterior issues, plus I'm losing oil but seemingly not burning it. The control arms need to be replaced, along with engine and tranny mounts, and there are some exterior imperfections that annoy me. Basically it's been a daily driver for three owners including myself. I started thinking about modding the engine after I fix the other issues, but then I got stuck on this idea to build a B7 RS4 avant.

So here's the thought process so far: I could fix up the S4 and sell it for a small profit, since I got it for a steal, and then I could source a B7 S4 for the conversion. That seems do-able, but if I'm going to replace the front clip, rear doors, rear quarters and bumper, and side skirts, why not just use my B6? The only other body parts that would need to be replaced would be the front doors and hatch, and the price of those is far less than the price difference to sell this and pick up a B7 S4. I'm pretty sure I can pick up all of the parts fairly easily, and I have friends that live in Germany, Italy and the UK, so I have help as far as purchasing parts in those countries.

I know some of you will say it's a waste of cash, but I've always been into building cars that were never available in the US. I was building an E36 Alpina clone from my old BMW till I got transferred out of the country for work years ago, and I'm just about to start the Abt Sportsline build, which I have all the parts for now. Am I crazy?

Oh, and if I do it, the engine will be swapped for an RS4 motor too. ;)

[Axel-]

Spend more time doing research and you'll probably finally figure out for yourself it's not the best idea, including swapping in an RS4 motor...

[sandspeed]

Probably not the best idea based on what? Opinions? I'm not worried about resale value, I like avants and want a wide bodied one with OEM quality and more power. I also prefer positive displacement superchargers to centrifugal types, so the JHM one is not an option for me. I understand the drawback of the FSI and carbon buildup and I know there will have to be changes made to the fuel system to accommodate that engine.

[4point2]

one idea that you may want to entertain is to look into bringing in a rebuild car from europe with only the shell / interior ie no drivetrain and swapping in the s4 drive train. Not sure if that's even allowed but it's an idea nonetheless.

oh and as far as wanting a widebody avant

[lunamarA4]

one idea that you may want to entertain is to look into bringing in a rebuild car from europe with only the shell / interior ie no drivetrain and swapping in the s4 drive train. Not sure if that's even allowed but it's an idea nonetheless.

oh and as far as wanting a widebody avant

x2

[cotmfk]

I believe there is a custom S4 avant to RS4 avant conversion for sale currently. If not, it JUST sold. Just fyi.

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[Slow4]

I believe there is a custom S4 avant to RS4 avant conversion for sale currently. If not, it JUST sold. Just fyi.

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Florida right?

[Foot]

The M3 guys have created M3 Estates by using hot staples to create an non-existant M3/estate rear bumper. I think this would be the most economical way to make an RS4 avant rear bumper. I've been thinking about doing the same thing with a RS4 or even an M5 Estate with a V10 6 speed, that would be very unique too, none in the USA.








Hot Stapler How to Video: And this one is too expensieve at $500 because Eastwood has a kit that'll do the job for $159

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXeacki20Qc


The M3 guys created M3 Estate rear quarters buy cutting and weldiing in an M3 fender into the Estate rear quarter. Very clever, IMHO and could be done with an RS4 avant as well.

[Blackstallion]

Florida right?

Yeah-- Fat Brembos was username iirc...

[Blackstallion]

I cant find the build page anymore--I thought it was in the Avant section...

Nevermind--http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ody-conversion


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Widebody-Avant

[sandspeed]

I cant find the build page anymore--I thought it was in the Avant section...

Nevermind--http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...ody-conversion


http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...Widebody-Avant

I've seen those, and he spent a ton of money buying new parts when used ones would have been fine. All in, I am pretty sure I can have a B7 RS4 avant clone, with the correct motor and including the purchase price of my S4 avant, for less than what he wants for his. Plus I don't really like buying someone else's finished project.

[CoreyRS]

This sounds awesome, I vote do it. Can you do body work yourself?

[sandspeed]

This sounds awesome, I vote do it. Can you do body work yourself?

Unfortunately, no. So I'll have to have someone else do the rear quarters, body prep, and paint.

[Quadfreak]

I'm just gonna reiterate this....

Spend more time doing research and you'll probably finally figure out for yourself it's not the best idea, including swapping in an RS4 motor...

Yeah, you can do the body conversion...not that difficult if you have the cash to back it, but swapping the motor is a different story. Don't you think if it was reasonably doable someone would have done it by now?...Considering how much people drool over RS4 avants (and the bankroll some people here roll with).

You would have to swap the motor, entire wiring harness, entire fueling system, drivetrain, etc.. Yeah, the motor bolts in, but they couldn't be more different. Biggest differences being: FSI, 2 ECUs, 32V, and I'm pretty sure the flywheel is a different bolt pattern. (I'm sure there are other differences as well)

If you can pull it off, then great. I'm sure you will be pretty popular around here. IMO, the cost FAR, FAR, FAR, outweighs the benefits.

All in, I am pretty sure I can have a B7 RS4 avant clone, with the correct motor and including the purchase price of my S4 avant, for less than what he wants for his.

I highly doubt that. You're gonna be into it 30k in parts before you even start work. Cause you're basically gonna have to buy a whole RS4 just to get the parts.

[Mr.Wrong]

Finally someone thinking of a complete conversion I feel like starting with a B7 canvas would save you some time and funds in the process as quite a few parts could be kept or slightly modified. However if you don't mind a bit more effort then go for it.

[JDillon15]

I'm just gonna reiterate this....



Yeah, you can do the body conversion...not that difficult if you have the cash to back it, but swapping the motor is a different story. Don't you think if it was reasonably doable someone would have done it by now?...Considering how much people drool over RS4 avants (and the bankroll some people here roll with).

You would have to swap the motor, entire wiring harness, entire fueling system, drivetrain, etc.. Yeah, the motor bolts in, but they couldn't be more different. Biggest differences being: FSI, 2 ECUs, 32V, and I'm pretty sure the flywheel is a different bolt pattern. (I'm sure there are other differences as well)

If you can pull it off, then great. I'm sure you will be pretty popular around here. IMO, the cost FAR, FAR, FAR, outweighs the benefits.



I highly doubt that. You're gonna be into it 30k in parts before you even start work. Cause you're basically gonna have to buy a whole RS4 just to get the parts.

I wouldn't say 30k. I bet he could find an RS4 that had been totaled for half of that.

[65vetteC6]

I've seen those, and he spent a ton of money buying new parts when used ones would have been fine. All in, I am pretty sure I can have a B7 RS4 avant clone, with the correct motor and including the purchase price of my S4 avant, for less than what he wants for his. Plus I don't really like buying someone else's finished project.

Go get a quote on body work and then come back. I was quoted anywhere between 10-25K (paint being a huge factor) but the labor alone for the swap is pretty huge. Not to mention you need to swap almost every single part out of the RS4 and into the donor. It would be cool but no easy task, even on a car that is already wide bodied.

[sandspeed]

I found most of the body and other big parts for under $5k. Just need the rear quarters from Germany, or I'm sure sedan ones could be chopped and the needed areas used. As for the harness and ECUs, I know about those issues. The bigger question is what needs to be replaced to get the chassis and ECU to talk to each other. The fuel system isn't that difficult really, just gut the existing system and replace it with the RS4-spec stuff. Suspension would probably be some KWs or air, so I wouldn't be messing with the DRC system.

Oh, and people probably don't swap the engine because they don't exactly pop up for sale all the time.

[65vetteC6]

You have to swap the whole chassis harness....


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[sandspeed]

You have to swap the whole chassis harness....


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Ok, that's doable.

[[email protected]]

Ok, that's doable.

just so you know... rear quarter panels are $4000.

[sandspeed]

just so you know... rear quarter panels are $4000.

Sure, if you buy them brand new.

[pwest15]

It's definitely possible. It'll cost you a pretty penny I'm sure but you could do it. And now I want to see it done so I'm gonna say go for it!

[[email protected]]

Sure, if you buy them brand new.

well i have been collecting parts for 3 yrs for my conversion and never found 1 set for sale. Even if you do it's 1000 times easier to use brand new panels especially since you'll end up spending the difference in body work to get everything straight.

[Solboricua18]

Boy I would love to talk you out of this build. The way I see it one member here did a B7 S4 wide body with a color change and he was asking for 33K, thats with a stock S4 engine. Add to that the potential engine swap and you are easily in the 40K mark....also think about this if a B5 RS4 has sold here in the States for 45K.....what could you get if you sold your entire project....thats the best way to look at it. If I was you I would entertain the possibility of a wide body but know that months and at least 10-13K will be spent on top of the car value. I have a B5 widebody s4 and I love it. But I would have never had spent the money for the wide body, instead I bought it of someone that did do it already. Hope that helps in any way. Either way you have a great car, enjoy it and be happy to have a rare car (S4 Avant 6MT)

PS I also just picked up a B6 S4 Avant...and I LOVE it.

[[email protected]]

Yea to be honest if you have the $ to do a full build it makes 1000x more sense just to buy a REAL RS4 Avant and have it imported. By the time you do full interior, motor and just body panels (new or used w/ shipping) those costs will have exceeded what you can get a COMPLETE one for with decent miles.. And if you are spending that kind of money in the 1st place there is WAY cooler shit to buy. If I had to start over w/ mine again.... I wouldn't. And I'm pretty close to being done w/ mine.

my advice.... if you have this kind of budget to work w/ you should be able to swap a 2.5T into your B6. Done!

[sandspeed]

Yeah, but cars are about personal taste and choices. I like wagons, wide bodies, and low end torque that comes with larger displacement or positive-displacement superchargers. As for your "buy an RS4 avant comment, you can't import them and drive them legally, they aren't really that cheap once you figure in the currency conversions, and shipping across the ocean plus paying customs fees adds a substantial cost.

[pwest15]

Plus, who doesn't love a project car! It might take years and a ton of money but in the end, I'm sure OP would love the car a lot more

[65vetteC6]

Yeah, but cars are about personal taste and choices. I like wagons, wide bodies, and low end torque that comes with larger displacement or positive-displacement superchargers. As for your "buy an RS4 avant comment, you can't import them and drive them legally, they aren't really that cheap once you figure in the currency conversions, and shipping across the ocean plus paying customs fees adds a substantial cost.

Seems like you are trying to convince yourself its a good idea even after others have voiced their opinion. You are still finishing a 2.7 swap, why not finish that first, two projects never work well IMO. Then go do more research, you said that importing one is to much (id agree), but I don't think you have done the math on building one either. What is your game plan, buy and A4? S4? There are benefits to the A4 because of the price point, BUT there would also be benefits to pick up a chassis in a color you might want (Sprint Blue as an example). This could cut down on cost significantly because it would reduce the paint work some.You really need to talk to a GOOD body shop and get an idea on pricing. RS4 firewall is different BTW, needs to accommodate the 2 ECU harness. The rear tire/battery compartment is different, the sheet metal over the gas tank is slightly different to accomidate the fuel module controller as well (not really required to modify). Once you are past all that, on to the wiring harness. You will have to remove it and rewire the rear brake lights some, possibly rear parking sensors if you want to retain them, possibly amp becuase it is a slightly different position. It is a TON of work, and putting it back together without any rattles etc, would be quite a task. None the less it would be cool, just seems like it one of those projects someone would start from scratch with and be exhausted of it when they got halfway there (aka the completed widebodies that are out there).

[sandspeed]

I guess I was trying to see if anyone would post up some absolutely insurmountable barriers to making this happen. For the starting car, I will probably use an A4, just to keep costs down, and it will probably be white as I'm a bit partial to it. I'm guessing the firewall can be modified to accommodate the harnesses? And the RS4 sedan has the battery in the same location, correct? This project is going to take a lot of time, if only to locate the parts and find the right shop to do the body work, but I'm patient. Hell, thanks to many detours (military orders, family issues, Lee Johnson being a shitbag) my Abt project has taken four years. That's kinda sad. But at this point I just need to grab a few more parts for it and start assembling things. Once that setup is done I'll move on to this project.

Plus, who doesn't love a project car! It might take years and a ton of money but in the end, I'm sure OP would love the car a lot more

I do enjoy the process more than the result to an extent, and there is more to be gained from owning a project car than a profit when you sell it. Experience and joy are priceless.

[enigma1406]

[Axel-]

I guess I was trying to see if anyone would post up some absolutely insurmountable barriers to making this happen. For the starting car, I will probably use an A4, just to keep costs down, and it will probably be white as I'm a bit partial to it. I'm guessing the firewall can be modified to accommodate the harnesses? And the RS4 sedan has the battery in the same location, correct? This project is going to take a lot of time, if only to locate the parts and find the right shop to do the body work, but I'm patient. Hell, thanks to many detours (military orders, family issues, Lee Johnson being a shitbag) my Abt project has taken four years. That's kinda sad. But at this point I just need to grab a few more parts for it and start assembling things. Once that setup is done I'll move on to this project.



I do enjoy the process more than the result to an extent, and there is more to be gained from owning a project car than a profit when you sell it. Experience and joy are priceless.

I do believe the RS4 battery is in the trunk because there's a second ECU where the battery is for the S4. I'm assuming the A4 is the same as the S4.

Good luck with the project. I'm looking forward to a successful completion but I won't hold my breath. It's been done so there are no real hard technical barriers. Just need time and money.

[[email protected]]

As for your "buy an RS4 avant comment, you can't import them and drive them legally, they aren't really that cheap once you figure in the currency conversions, and shipping across the ocean plus paying customs fees adds a substantial cost.

I know. But I mentioned IF you have the budget to build a FULL conversion then you could afford to import one. Shipping, duty fees and registration (even temporary) will still be way cheaper than building a full conversion. Also used parts are not that easy to find for your build. I know that.. Very rarely will an RS4 be parted out. Most that are wrecked/totalled will be rebuilt and sold/shipped to other parts of the world where they were not available as people pay big money for them. Even in the US an insurance company will rarely total one since they are so expensive.

[sandspeed]

You can't legally register a foreign car here and drive it on the streets more than a very, very low number of miles per year. And in those rare cases where you can drive it on the street, the car has to be some uber rare demonstration vehicle that is of major significance. The other option is to have one converted to US spec, but a conversion company needs to prove the RS4 avant is substantially similar to a model sold by Audi in the US. That typically means you need a letter from Audi certifying that the car is basically an S4, and they may not want to play that game. I have lived overseas in Asia and Europe and have done a lot of research on importing cars. Believe me, if you want to drive an imported, non-US spec car on the streets LEGALLY you will be spending a ton of money. It would honestly be cheaper to build one in this case. There are a few exceptions or loopholes, but most of those put you in the precarious situation of being on the wrong side of the DOT/EPA/Customs and could lead to your car being impounded for an indeterminate period of time. No thanks. As far as parts go, I seem to have tracked 80% of them down already.

To clarify: A company can do all the paperwork and modify the car as needed to meet US DOT/EPA rules (glass, lights, emissions, bumpers, etc.). You have to place a deposit with them that is typically a lot of money (I've heard $20k isn't out of the ordinary) which you will get back after the car is approved and returned to you, minus some fees possibly. Plus you will pay the approved company (there is a list on the DOT website) a hefty fee to do all the work and filing papers.

The other option is to have a car federalized. That means a number of cars (3?) have to be wrecked for NHTSA crash testing, plus all the glass, emissions, etc. compliance. It's a huge pain in the ass, but supposedly someone (Bill Gates?) went that route with the Porsche 959 in the 80's when Porsche said they wouldn't build any US-spec versions. In any case, plenty of cars have been impounded for paperwork snafus, incorrect interpretation of laws, EPA/DOT randomly reinterpreting laws, etc. (See MOTOREX debacle)

[sandspeed]

To put my thread in the right direction now that I've stubbornly made my mind up...

Aside from the ECU/battery locations, fuel system differences, firewall mods, and wiring harness, can anyone think of issues with doing a full conversion starting with a 2008 A4 avant 6-speed?

[pwest15]

To put my thread in the right direction now that I've stubbornly made my mind up...

Aside from the ECU/battery locations, fuel system differences, firewall mods, and wiring harness, can anyone think of issues with doing a full conversion starting with a 2008 A4 avant 6-speed?

Well certainly make sure you update to RS4 suspension so it can handle the weight. Also, I think the A/C systems are routed differently as well. If you're going through with it, awesome!

[Axel-]

The other option is to have a car federalized. That means a number of cars (3?) have to be wrecked for NHTSA crash testing, plus all the glass, emissions, etc. compliance. It's a huge pain in the ass, but supposedly someone (Bill Gates?) went that route with the Porsche 959 in the 80's when Porsche said they wouldn't build any US-spec versions. In any case, plenty of cars have been impounded for paperwork snafus, incorrect interpretation of laws, EPA/DOT randomly reinterpreting laws, etc. (See MOTOREX debacle)

Not to get off topic but I do believe his 959 was confiscated for a very long time because he never did get it federalized.

And I agree with your description of the car import process. At least you did a lot of research on that topic

[ArtfctsInMotion]

Here's my opinion: cars are money pits, but we love them because they afford us the opportunity to express our interests, creativity, and passion in a mechanical and technical tool we use in our daily lives. If you feel that the conversion will bring you an amount of joy, pride, and satisfaction that will come with the price, then I say commit to it and go all out! Life is too short to play by convention and be deterred by those who simply lack the ambition to do something seriously cool.

[Quadfreak]

Not to get off topic but I do believe his 959 was confiscated for a very long time because he never did get it federalized.

And I agree with your description of the car import process. At least you did a lot of research on that topic

It was a custom built one of a kind 959, which was why he couldn't get it federalized because there wasn't another one like it in existence. After 25 years you can import just about anything trouble free, assuming you can pay all the fees.

[Axel-]

It was a custom built one of a kind 959, which was why he couldn't get it federalized because there wasn't another one like it in existence. After 25 years you can import just about anything trouble free, assuming you can pay all the fees.

This was WAY before the 25 years came. It was a standard 959 and it simply got impounded at customs.

"While most Porsches can import quite easily from Europe to the USA, the 959 had complications abound, making it impossible for US citizens to get their hands on one of these supercars. One of the citizens was Gates, who ordered a 959 from Porsche, only to have it impounded at customs. The reasoning provided to justify the impounding was that the 959 had not yet cleared crash-testing requirements and did not meet EPA standards. Gates’ German supercar sat idly by for over a decade."

http://blog.dupontregistry.com/the-l...t-porsche-959/