B8.5 E85 Issues

[diesel656]

Hi, everyone. This is my first post though I have browsed the forums for years. I am looking for some suggestions or ideas as I have recently run in to a little problem with my 2014 A4.

Long story short, I got an APR Stage 1 tune and started running E85 for a few weeks and I fell in love with the car. I was about to sell it beforehand because I was so unhappy with its performance but my girlfriend suggested I try the tune first. As usual, she was right and I loved everything about it. It was hands down the largest single improvement I have ever experienced in a car - let alone for the money.

A couple weeks later at a stop light the engine started running very rough as if I were driving over cobblestone and after moving it on to a side rode the engine actually shut down and wouldn't start. A few hours later I tried starting it again and it seemed to correct itself somewhat after disabling some cylinders. I took the car back to the shop where I got it tuned (034 Motorsports, great guys) and had the flash removed before taking it to the dealership. I handed the service adviser the codes and they kept my car overnight after which he called me saying it was a fuel quality problem. So, his solution to my problem was telling me, "just don't use E85".

This in my mind is completely unacceptable and I told him to have his manager call me on Monday. I had only been using E85 for three weeks and less than 500 miles. Their solution to my flexfuel engine misfiring is to not use flex fuel? At this point it is more out of principle that I am looking to get this corrected but I have to say after getting so used to the Stage 1 tune with E85 and having to go back to stock - the car sucks. It truly is that big of a difference.

Anyhow, I have been running 91 since with no tune and all of the error codes had been removed so it is running perfectly fine and slow. I am wondering if any of you have any ideas as to what the problem would be and how to either get the dealership to start working with me (the car only has 21k miles and is under warranty) or what I can have an independent shop I trust look into. I really need the tune back or I need to start looking into a different car.

I appreciate the help in advance!

[ranchos]

Did you ever run e85 before the tune? Have you run e85 after flashing back to stock? I wouldn't be so fast to start blaming Audi - you DID have a tune which technically absolves them. If they discover your tune they can TD1 you and your engine warranty is void.

Sounds like you need to upgrade to an S4.

[diesel656]

Did you ever run e85 before the tune? Have you run e85 after flashing back to stock? I wouldn't be so fast to start blaming Audi - you DID have a tune which technically absolves them. If they discover your tune they can TD1 you and your engine warranty is void.

Sounds like you need to upgrade to an S4.

You are right, ranchos. I was just heated by the issue in the first place and by the response of the service advisor. It didn't throw any flags and I am filling it with E85 as we speak to see if I can get it to misfire again.

In the meantime I'm going to get the refund for my APR tune and run it on E85 for a bit. What a bummer...

I'm still looking for other possible solutions or reasons for the issue in the first place.

[skis4hire]

I don't have any evidence or links to give but I have heard that E85 can be dicey on quality.

I would also suggest contacting APR to see if they can help you.
If running E85 without tune is OK and E85 with tune is not OK, they are doing something to affect perhaps the knock management or timing retard mechanism that isn't working with your fuel. It may be something they can correct.

Also if you have a log of the error codes and post them that can really help.

[Aldo]

Why not just keep your APR tune and run 93 octane?

[diesel656]

I don't have any evidence or links to give but I have heard that E85 can be dicey on quality.

I would also suggest contacting APR to see if they can help you.
If running E85 without tune is OK and E85 with tune is not OK, they are doing something to affect perhaps the knock management or timing retard mechanism that isn't working with your fuel. It may be something they can correct.

Also if you have a log of the error codes and post them that can really help.

I have heard the same about E85 quality. I am going to get a refund for the tune and run E85 for a couple of months and see if I can get the same thing to happen. I will get a copy of the error codes today and post them up. They are a foreign language to me but maybe some of you guys can make sense of them.

[diesel656]

Why not just keep your APR tune and run 93 octane?

Where I am in California we don't have 93, unfortunately. However, I may just decide to get it tuned again and try a 50/50 E85 and 91 blend.

[GT B8]

The only red flags I could think of is if you ran the e85 before the tune. Maybe your fuel pump or injectors. My experience with e85 the first thing they do before the tune is upgrade the injectors. Also I dont think the quality of e85 is the issue got a bunch of friends who have ran it on numerous cars and no problems. Im sure youve done your research but honestly when you do anything aftermarket no matter how right there is something that always goes wrong.

[LINDW4LL]

OP, I've heard cases where E85 "tests out" to have much lower ethanol content than 85%. That could be your issue, or the dealer may just be blaming it on poor fuel when in actuality, that isn't the problem. Obviously his response is unacceptable, and laughable at that.

What fault codes were shown?

The only red flags I could think of is if you ran the e85 before the tune. Maybe your fuel pump or injectors.

The B8.5 is able to use E85 from the factory.

[GT B8]

OP, I've heard cases where E85 "tests out" to have much lower ethanol content than 85%. That could be your issue, or the dealer may just be blaming it on poor fuel when in actuality, that isn't the problem. Obviously his response is unacceptable, and laughable at that.

What fault codes were shown?


The B8.5 is able to use E85 from the factory.

Oh wow i did not know that. That is actually pretty amazing

[GT B8]

OP, I've heard cases where E85 "tests out" to have much lower ethanol content than 85%. That could be your issue, or the dealer may just be blaming it on poor fuel when in actuality, that isn't the problem. Obviously his response is unacceptable, and laughable at that.

What fault codes were shown?


The B8.5 is able to use E85 from the factory.

Does audi cover that under warranty because I am extremely interested in doing that now lol

[Darksol80]

Have you tried different gas stations? Maybe the station doesn't move e85 out of the tanks quickly. You never mentioned if you tried a different station. Get a sample of the fuel and get it analyzed. Get samples from other stations. I wouldn't fold so quickly.

[diesel656]

I actually just got off the phone with one of the higher ups named Mike at Pearson Fuels (the company that supplies the E85 to the stations around here) and he is overnighting a sample kit to that station and having it analyzed as soon as he gets it back. It will take a couple of weeks.

Interestingly, Mike used to work at dealerships with regard to warranty claims and eventually ran a dealership himself so he was able to provide some helpful insight into how to handle this. He also explained that his company regularly tests the E85 they ship and has never seen any varaince outside of 1% with regard to ethanol content. Even if there was a completely terrible mix between the ethanol and the other gasoline (say 50% ethanol) the engine would adjust accordingly and run absolutely fine. This is why people are able to run 50/50 mixes of E85 and 91 or any mix in between. He says that he has heard of drivers placing some diesel or other contaminants into the mix accidently (this happened 2 times in the last 10 years) and that would cause a problem but no complaints have been made since the last shipment to the station which he informed me was back on the 13th.

Error codes to follow once the dealership finally faxes them back to me.

[diesel656]

The fault codes given to me by the dealer are the following... P0300, P0302 and P0304. Anyone know what this means?

[inception]

Guys
piston rings are going bad on these cars.... Just FYI

[LINDW4LL]

The fault codes given to me by the dealer are the following... P0300, P0302 and P0304. Anyone know what this means?

Cylinder 2 misfire, Cylinder 4 misfire, and random misfires.

I know I mentioned the possibility of the ethanol content being incorrect. I now realize that that would be irrelevant in your situation since the B8.5s have the Flex Fuel sensor, which automatically adapts the tune to whatever ethanol content is present.

Probably just a coincidence that it happened after 500 miles of E85.

[adamazing]

Guys
piston rings are going bad on these cars.... Just FYI

Hold on here man, there's a difference between you're piston rings going bad and a general epidemic of them. Let's not jump to conclusions here.
Your situation sucks (I read about it in the APR thread) and it's unfortunate, but you're the first I've read about failed rings on the B8.5 - and certainly not enough other circumstances to warrant saying "rings are going bad on these cars" all over the place.

Let's hold off on spreading wildfires until we get a bigger survey sample of tuned reliability. Diesel's car is having misfire problems which very well could be a bad batch of fuel or ignition/spark problems - not compression issues.

[diesel656]

Hold on here man, there's a difference between you're piston rings going bad and a general epidemic of them. Let's not jump to conclusions here.
Your situation sucks (I read about it in the APR thread) and it's unfortunate, but you're the first I've read about failed rings on the B8.5 - and certainly not enough other circumstances to warrant saying "rings are going bad on these cars" all over the place.

Let's hold off on spreading wildfires until we get a bigger survey sample of tuned reliability. Diesel's car is having misfire problems which very well could be a bad batch of fuel or ignition/spark problems - not compression issues.

I have no idea what's causing it at this point and am continually becoming more frustrated with the dealership not even wanting to look into it.

[adamazing]

I have no idea what's causing it at this point and am continually becoming more frustrated with the dealership not even wanting to look into it.

I think it's time to take ti to a reputable VW/Audi service shop then. Was you're tuner not able to diagnose it when they put it back to stock?

[LINDW4LL]

I have no idea what's causing it at this point and am continually becoming more frustrated with the dealership not even wanting to look into it.

I assume you're still getting the codes/misfires while stock when using E85? If so, it's the dealers responsibility to fix it. I'd sternly tell them it's unacceptable how they're handling it. There is an engine issue with your vehicle that needs to be fixed.

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[diesel656]

I am still running through the tank of E85 and 91 blend so I have not used 100% E85 stock as of yet. I will be interested in seeing if it happens again stock or it was just the tune.

The shop I used for the tune suggested that it was probably a plug/coil issue but we agreed taking it back to the dealership as it is under factory warranty was the best course of action. So, they didn't look into it very deeply as we both assumed the dealership would.

[boomtime]

It could in fact be the fuel quality.
Also water combines with e85 so I suspect some stations are litterally watering the e85 down to make more margin on the sale.
I have APR Stage2 e85 tune and a couple of tanks of e85 I have had some timing retard logged at 3% to 6% across 4 cylinders. After filling up again with a new batch of e85 the timing retard went away completely.

The other thing is:
If you use VAGCOM to locate the channel for alcohol content/ethanol % you can see that the sensor changes very slowly. It usually take up to an hour, with the engine running to fully climb up from 8% to e85 (40%-70%) and another hour to climb down to 8% when going back to premium.
So dont beat on the car right away when switching from premium to e85 or more especially when switching back to premium from e85.

[adamazing]

The other thing is:
If you use VAGCOM to locate the channel for alcohol content/ethanol % you can see that the sensor changes very slowly. It usually take up to an hour, with the engine running to fully climb up from 8% to e85 (40%-70%) and another hour to climb down to 8% when going back to premium.
So dont beat on the car right away when switching from premium to e85 or more especially when switching back to premium from e85.

That's interesting to know. Where is the sensor located? I would assume it's located in-line, which would make reading and blending maps on the fly more efficient - at least in theory. Is it actually located in the tank itself?

[boomtime]

I dont know where its located but its definitely a running calculation as fuel passes the sensor over time.

If you look online to buy an e85 testing kit, you will see that the majority are simply a clear tube with lines on it. You fill the first 2 inches of the tube with tap water. Then you fill the rest with fuel. The gasoline itself in the e85 literally floats to the top and the line between the water/ethanol and gasoline is the alcohol percentage... this works because water blends easily with ethanol.
Its stone age but this illustrates my point perfectly: If a gas station waters down the e85 you CANNOT visibly tell. If there was significant water in the premium gasoline you COULD visibly tell!

[diesel656]

It could in fact be the fuel quality.
Also water combines with e85 so I suspect some stations are litterally watering the e85 down to make more margin on the sale.
I have APR Stage2 e85 tune and a couple of tanks of e85 I have had some timing retard logged at 3% to 6% across 4 cylinders. After filling up again with a new batch of e85 the timing retard went away completely.

The other thing is:
If you use VAGCOM to locate the channel for alcohol content/ethanol % you can see that the sensor changes very slowly. It usually take up to an hour, with the engine running to fully climb up from 8% to e85 (40%-70%) and another hour to climb down to 8% when going back to premium.
So dont beat on the car right away when switching from premium to e85 or more especially when switching back to premium from e85.

Boomtime, I didn't know there was such a delay in recalibrating! This is good to know. Also, With two cylinders shut down I didn't go back to E85 after the errors were cleared I just went back to 91 and haven't played much with the engine since. I am currently running it on nothing but E85 for a month or two to see if I can get the issue to occur again. I am really missing the tune! I'd love to think it was just a fluke or a bad batch of fuel but I really don't want to go through the breakdown, driving to the shop and reflashing to stock to then deal with my dealership.

[herbarn]

The fault codes given to me by the dealer are the following... P0300, P0302 and P0304. Anyone know what this means?

I had this situation few months ago when I floored pedal hard and the car suddenly loose power. At that time, I know my spark plug coils are failed. I called my wife brought 4 coils (old but works good) to me. I took off four coils from my engine and installed the good old coils to my car in 15 minutes. tell you what. car is revival like a new, even drove 80 mile per hour still in good condition until now. So I bought r8 coils and keep old coils in my car just in case.

[AllroadCorbin]

I have run E85 off and on for almost two years in my AR and I havent had an issue yet but E85 quality is horrible. I log my car and the ethanol percentage in my fuel everytime I fill with it.

I have run 3 back to back tanks of E85 to ensure all 93 is gone and then logged the Ethanol percentage. The highest I have ever been able to log is 54% ethanol. The fuel pumps always say this fuel must have minimum 70% ethanol. I'm calling the station later to let them know. Sometimes I've logged as low as 38% ethanol on a full tank which makes me wonder what the other 62% is....if that 62% is garbage regular gas, the effective octane of my tank might not even reach 93, causing my car to run like shit and pull timing

[Townending]

I have run E85 off and on for almost two years in my AR and I havent had an issue yet but E85 quality is horrible. I log my car and the ethanol percentage in my fuel everytime I fill with it.

I have run 3 back to back tanks of E85 to ensure all 93 is gone and then logged the Ethanol percentage. The highest I have ever been able to log is 54% ethanol. The fuel pumps always say this fuel must have minimum 70% ethanol. I'm calling the station later to let them know. Sometimes I've logged as low as 38% ethanol on a full tank which makes me wonder what the other 62% is....if that 62% is garbage regular gas, the effective octane of my tank might not even reach 93, causing my car to run like shit and pull timing

54% is lowwww. I've been running back to back E85 for the last 50+ tanks. My Ethanol content is at 81%. I read that in colder states, they drop E85 to E70 in the winter to help with cold starts, but I am not affected by that here in southern California.

To add a bit to the thread:
The only issue I ever had with E85, was an injector failing. Who knows if E85 caused it or not because it was after 20k miles of straight E85.

[boomtime]

I have run E85 off and on for almost two years in my AR and I havent had an issue yet but E85 quality is horrible. I log my car and the ethanol percentage in my fuel everytime I fill with it.

I have run 3 back to back tanks of E85 to ensure all 93 is gone and then logged the Ethanol percentage. The highest I have ever been able to log is 54% ethanol. The fuel pumps always say this fuel must have minimum 70% ethanol. I'm calling the station later to let them know. Sometimes I've logged as low as 38% ethanol on a full tank which makes me wonder what the other 62% is....if that 62% is garbage regular gas, the effective octane of my tank might not even reach 93, causing my car to run like shit and pull timing

X1000

The alcohol % is definitely lower up north and it might even be that gas station watering it down to make more profit.
Ive seen that happen before with them "accidentally" dropping 87 into the 93 ground tank.

Better to call the county or state rather than the station. Then they will go test the pumps and fine the station if they are playing games...


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[AllroadCorbin]

X1000

The alcohol % is definitely lower up north and it might even be that gas station watering it down to make more profit.
Ive seen that happen before with them "accidentally" dropping 87 into the 93 ground tank.

Better to call the county or state rather than the station. Then they will go test the pumps and fine the station if they are playing games...


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I'll try the county maybe. But Massachusetts really doesn't give a shit about anything. I doubt they'll care


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[zcspec]

Now that I've had my TR8 on for 2 weeks and the AR runs so damn strong on APR Stage 1-e85, I've considered running it 24/7. Here in the PNW, e85 isn't abundant, but where I get it from, the station says "85% ethanol." Threads like this have we reconsidering if I should run e85 24/7. I'll need to check the % in the next few tanks.

[Townending]

Now that I've had my TR8 on for 2 weeks and the AR runs so damn strong on APR Stage 1-e85, I've considered running it 24/7. Here in the PNW, e85 isn't abundant, but where I get it from, the station says "85% ethanol." Threads like this have we reconsidering if I should run e85 24/7. I'll need to check the % in the next few thanks.

All stations I have been to have a little sticker lower on the pump that says, "May Contain 70% Ethanol" I've never had a batch below 75% personally. I've been running E85 24/7 for the past 13 months. Temps ranging from 110F to -10F. It's a little hard to start in -10F, but that's pretty normal.

[vokain]

Hi, everyone. This is my first post though I have browsed the forums for years. I am looking for some suggestions or ideas as I have recently run in to a little problem with my 2014 A4.

Long story short, I got an APR Stage 1 tune and started running E85 for a few weeks and I fell in love with the car. I was about to sell it beforehand because I was so unhappy with its performance but my girlfriend suggested I try the tune first. As usual, she was right and I loved everything about it. It was hands down the largest single improvement I have ever experienced in a car - let alone for the money.

A couple weeks later at a stop light the engine started running very rough as if I were driving over cobblestone and after moving it on to a side rode the engine actually shut down and wouldn't start. A few hours later I tried starting it again and it seemed to correct itself somewhat after disabling some cylinders. I took the car back to the shop where I got it tuned (034 Motorsports, great guys) and had the flash removed before taking it to the dealership. I handed the service adviser the codes and they kept my car overnight after which he called me saying it was a fuel quality problem. So, his solution to my problem was telling me, "just don't use E85".

This in my mind is completely unacceptable and I told him to have his manager call me on Monday. I had only been using E85 for three weeks and less than 500 miles. Their solution to my flexfuel engine misfiring is to not use flex fuel? At this point it is more out of principle that I am looking to get this corrected but I have to say after getting so used to the Stage 1 tune with E85 and having to go back to stock - the car sucks. It truly is that big of a difference.

Anyhow, I have been running 91 since with no tune and all of the error codes had been removed so it is running perfectly fine and slow. I am wondering if any of you have any ideas as to what the problem would be and how to either get the dealership to start working with me (the car only has 21k miles and is under warranty) or what I can have an independent shop I trust look into. I really need the tune back or I need to start looking into a different car.

I appreciate the help in advance!

You needed to replace your coil packs and fuel injectors as one of the first fix attempts.

[Theiceman]

You needed to replace your coil packs and fuel injectors as one of the first fix attempts.

my question would be , is it an e85 tune ?
I don't know much about APR but i thought the tunes in general were geared towards a specific fuel
for example i have a stage 1+ which is tunes for 93 octane. the guy warned me to ONLY put 93+ fuel in it, and in an emergency where i have to use less octane drive it gingerly and no full throttle. Not saying that's what it is but something to look into .

[adamazing]

You needed to replace your coil packs and fuel injectors as one of the first fix attempts.

Bro, did you really reply to a 5 year old thread?

[Theiceman]

Bro, did you really reply to a 5 year old thread?

damn , that means i got sucked in too .... i hate that

[adamazing]

damn , that means i got sucked in too .... i hate that

It happens to all of us. On a side note....

Hold on here man, there's a difference between you're piston rings going bad and a general epidemic of them. Let's not jump to conclusions here.
Your situation sucks (I read about it in the APR thread) and it's unfortunate, but you're the first I've read about failed rings on the B8.5 - and certainly not enough other circumstances to warrant saying "rings are going bad on these cars" all over the place.

Let's hold off on spreading wildfires until we get a bigger survey sample of tuned reliability. Diesel's car is having misfire problems which very well could be a bad batch of fuel or ignition/spark problems - not compression issues.

... hindsight is 20/20. My old post hasn't aged well.

[Theiceman]

It happens to all of us. On a side note....




... hindsight is 20/20. My old post hasn't aged well.

its never to late to edit :)

[TLR_0125]

It happens to all of us. On a side note....




... hindsight is 20/20. My old post hasn't aged well.

I was just about to reply back and mention my failed rings on my '13, then I saw the date lol

[vokain]

Maybe someone will benefit :)