Why no Supercharger Upgrade?

[cmsaint]

Part of the reason I bought my S4 was the eaton supercharger. I love the power delivery/linear torque curve for daily driving that the roots type blowers provide. I also figured it was just a matter of time the aftermarket offered a bigger unit for more power. The mustang scene has been doing this for years with the same eaton set up. All the upgraded roush cars are eaton tvs 2300 series blowers (I owned one before the S4). So what gives? The technology has been there and it should be fairly inexpensive even with the "Audi" tax. Am I missing something?

[LINDW4LL]

Expect $10,000+ for the APR Stage 3 kit if it ever gets released. It utilizes the TVS 1740. http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...highlight=1740


Maybe in two weeks...

[cmsaint]

10k is absurd. A Roush TVS2300 with fuel can be had for less than 6k and its an eaton based set up. I expect to pay a little more for an Audi piece but not 4k more for a smaller unit that is the same thing.

[ENV²]

Im guessing it just cannot be done for some reason. Its been too damn long with these delays etc.

[s4buckeye]

10k is absurd. A Roush TVS2300 with fuel can be had for less than 6k and its an eaton based set up. I expect to pay a little more for an Audi piece but not 4k more for a smaller unit that is the same thing.

can't pay anything for that which does not exist.

[amz]

APR did release some supercharger upgrades but a guy in, I think it was Australia, grenaded his engine because of the SC. SillyRabbit is experimenting with a twincharged setup which sounds insanely mean.

[skiptowncat]

MRC tuning over here had one in development but decided against it. Something about too much stress low down on the rods and not very much gain at the top.

[Rez90]

So what is available past Stage II (pulley, tune, intake, exhaust)?

Are there any other performance upgrades available for the B8 in terms of HP?

I see lots of people saying they're stage 2, stage 3, stage 3+....Which means..........?

[MattACK]

The market isn't big enough for anyone to build a supercharger upgrade.

Anyone know the upper/lower pulley ratio? I'm curious if the current pulley upgrade options are close to reaching the rpm limit of the blower.

[cspcrx]

So what is available past Stage II (pulley, tune, intake, exhaust)?

Are there any other performance upgrades available for the B8 in terms of HP?

I see lots of people saying they're stage 2, stage 3, stage 3+....Which means..........?

Meth or NOS!

[MattACK]

APR did release some supercharger upgrades but a guy in, I think it was Australia, grenaded his engine because of the SC.

Did this guy have forged internals or still running the stock bottom end?

[GTItoS4]

The market isn't big enough for anyone to build a supercharger upgrade.

Anyone know the upper/lower pulley ratio? I'm curious if the current pulley upgrade options are close to reaching the rpm limit of the blower.

Yep, I believe the pullies all bring the blower up to its max recommended operating speed.

[LINDW4LL]

So what is available past Stage II (pulley, tune, intake, exhaust)?

Are there any other performance upgrades available for the B8 in terms of HP?

I see lots of people saying they're stage 2, stage 3, stage 3+....Which means..........?

Meth is really all that will help. Or nitrous, until a stage 3 SC or twincharger kit is released.

Turbo/Twincharger kit has been developed by SRM. Will require a built engine, but it should have a ton of power potential for those wanting to push it.


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[Rez90]

interesting.

IMO the S4 with a pulley and tune is probably a near perfect street car. If big power is on the priority list i'd think a different platform (something proven) should be explored.

[B8 S4]

seems like there on some other possible engine mods to be had such as ported heads, cam, stoking and boring, ect.. that doesnt involve more boost. Id be interested in ported heads

[cmsaint]

The main reason you buy a FI car is to avoid costly mods (compared to hp realized) like porting the heads or stroking the motor. Just bolt on a bigger blower with the proper tune and you're off to the races. I'm surprised, shocked actually, that a viable/cost efficient blower upgrade is not available yet. The technology has been there for years. Maybe I'm asking to much, but I'd love to have a 125-130mph trap S4. That would be perfect IMO.

[BernanksBeard]

Take the super charger off and bolt in 2 (or 1) turbos that flow more air than the supercharger.....

[OhSoCal]

My guess is there's something in the engine that's not capable of handling it....and replacing this/these part(s) is too expensive to make it worthwhile. ....just my guess.

....Because you're right, you'd think this would easily be developed already (provided the engine can handle it).

[B8 S4]

The main reason you buy a FI car is to avoid costly mods (compared to hp realized) like porting the heads or stroking the motor. Just bolt on a bigger blower with the proper tune and you're off to the races. I'm surprised, shocked actually, that a viable/cost efficient blower upgrade is not available yet. The technology has been there for years. Maybe I'm asking to much, but I'd love to have a 125-130mph trap S4. That would be perfect IMO.

Head porting should be in the $2000 range, about the same as a stafe 2 tune. Im guessing it would yeild more than 30 hp on a FI car

[cmsaint]

Take the super charger off and bolt in 2 (or 1) turbos that flow more air than the supercharger.....

Can you provide a link of said kit? If not, then this is not a cost effective solution. Again, this is a factory FI car that should have a supercharger upgrade. A stage 2 upgrade with pulley, tune + dsg tune is roughly 3k. There is no reason that a larger blower should not be available for double that.

[BoostEasy]

Yes, the mustangs and larger V8s don't run that much boost (about 1/2) compared to what we run on a tiny 3.0L and the TVS Eatons have a hard limit of about 21-22psi by design (can't go higher), pre-intercooler.

In short, we have to make a lot more boost than the V8 guys to get anywhere near the same level of power, and that creates tremendous amounts of heat (upwards of 300'F) which the tiny intercooler system one can fit in the space left between the edges of the V in the 3.0T simply can't handle well in temps over about 80'F outside.

I did a comparo a while back and even a 1.9L eaton is only marginally better efficiency at say 18-19psi. You wouldn't pick up much from efficiency and could bake a pot roast with the discharge temps pre-IC.

[chaos2984]

The market isn't big enough for anyone to build a supercharger upgrade.

Anyone know the upper/lower pulley ratio? I'm curious if the current pulley upgrade options are close to reaching the rpm limit of the blower.

Bingo. Thats why the cost is so unreal. If you look at cost and with how many people are going to buy that product, you can spread investment cost over more sales. The problem is for audi's the market isn't as big as other things out there. Hell aftermarket performance parts were cheaper than factory parts for my honda, even though its a beater lol. Its got urethane bushings and adjustable upper control arm's and aluminum lower control arms lol.

Its just pure and simple if you can have a product that you can sell to 100 people vs just 10 you can spread out that cost to those 100 parts vs just the 10. The mustang scene is so cheap because everyone has a piece of the pie not just like 5 people for the audi scene.

[chuthis]

^my thoughts exactly.


Audi needs to sell more 3.0T's and more people need to mod them!

[cmsaint]

Yes, the mustangs and larger V8s don't run that much boost (about 1/2) compared to what we run on a tiny 3.0L and the TVS Eatons have a hard limit of about 21-22psi by design (can't go higher), pre-intercooler.

In short, we have to make a lot more boost than the V8 guys to get anywhere near the same level of power, and that creates tremendous amounts of heat (upwards of 300'F) which the tiny intercooler system one can fit in the space left between the edges of the V in the 3.0T simply can't handle well in temps over about 80'F outside.

I did a comparo a while back and even a 1.9L eaton is only marginally better efficiency at say 18-19psi. You wouldn't pick up much from efficiency and could bake a pot roast with the discharge temps pre-IC.

Good post. I understand we are running 6 cylinders vs 8 and cooling may be an issue. However, the technology is there to make it happen in a respectable manner.

The cooler beneath the blower can definetly be upgraded compared to stock ALONG with an upgraded external cooler in front of the radiator. It can be done, heat soak is enemy number 1 but the technology has been there for years to tackle it. (See terminator/gt500 cars)

I feel like a larger, say 1800-1900, series Eaton tvs can be developed with upgraded coolers to make close to 500whp with the correct tune at say 18-20 psi. This is not totally unrealistic nor unreliable. This would be a killer set up on a dsg car with awd and sport diff.

[teylix]

Good post. I understand we are running 6 cylinders vs 8 and cooling may be an issue. However, the technology is there to make it happen in a respectable manner.

The cooler beneath the blower can definetly be upgraded compared to stock ALONG with an upgraded external cooler in front of the radiator. It can be done, heat soak is enemy number 1 but the technology has been there for years to tackle it. (See terminator/gt500 cars)

I feel like a larger, say 1800-1900, series Eaton tvs can be developed with upgraded coolers to make close to 500whp with the correct tune at say 18-20 psi. This is not totally unrealistic nor unreliable. This would be a killer set up on a dsg car with awd and sport diff.

make it happen for 4-5k and im in ;)

[s14roller]

Not to mention if the trans can even hold all the additional power.

[whiteq]

APR did release some supercharger upgrades but a guy in, I think it was Australia, grenaded his engine because of the SC. SillyRabbit is experimenting with a twincharged setup which sounds insanely mean.

What's this about someone in Australia blowing a motor? There aren't that many down in comparison so I would have thought I'd have heard about it. Please do let me more..

[cmsaint]

For those of you saying cost is an issue...are you telling me that the guys that have already shelled out $3k+ for a stage 2 plus mods wouldnt double that for 100whp more? Im here to tell you they would. This is essentially a world wild platform, there is plenty of market share unless I'm missing something. As far as the trans/engine, how many have popped with a stage 2 set up? Less than 1% I would imagine, which means the potential is already there. 500whp should be the norm for these cars modified reliably.

[srt2evo]

For those of you saying cost is an issue...are you telling me that the guys that have already shelled out $3k+ for a stage 2 plus mods wouldnt double that for 100whp more? Im here to tell you they would. This is essentially a world wild platform, there is plenty of market share unless I'm missing something. As far as the trans/engine, how many have popped with a stage 2 set up? Less than 1% I would imagine, which means the potential is already there. 500whp should be the norm for these cars modified reliably.

I agree.

[BernanksBeard]

Can you provide a link of said kit? If not, then this is not a cost effective solution. Again, this is a factory FI car that should have a supercharger upgrade. A stage 2 upgrade with pulley, tune + dsg tune is roughly 3k. There is no reason that a larger blower should not be available for double that.

Don't know of any one who has done it, but as of now there are no other options. I've seen the twin charged car floating around here somewhere, it's gotta be easier to figure out than that complex monster. Turbos can be put on anything, any where, and that's why they are so appealing (to me at least). I'm sure you can utilize/alter parts of the existing heat exchanger system, though the heat load would be higher. I remember when it was becoming popular in 2003-04 Cobra Mustangs to remove the SC and run twin turbos. Those engines were close to bullet proof. I'm really surprised no one has done it, because there are plenty of people on this forum willing to drop $10,000+ on stage 3 (max power)

[BernanksBeard]

I understand you just wanna bolt on a bigger supercharger, but said kit does not exist. It's harder for some one to engineer and build a supercharger that fits this engine, for such a limited customer base. But an enthusiast is much more likely to build a system using turbos that are widely available.

[audistealth]

How much physical space is really left under the hood above the stock sc?

[S4 00 2.7]

MRC tuning over here had one in development but decided against it. Something about too much stress low down on the rods and not very much gain at the top.

I can see that.

Anyone who wants to see significant gains will need a built bottom end (replacing supercharger/ going twin-charged)

[Vogz]

Yes, the mustangs and larger V8s don't run that much boost (about 1/2) compared to what we run on a tiny 3.0L and the TVS Eatons have a hard limit of about 21-22psi by design (can't go higher), pre-intercooler.

In short, we have to make a lot more boost than the V8 guys to get anywhere near the same level of power, and that creates tremendous amounts of heat (upwards of 300'F) which the tiny intercooler system one can fit in the space left between the edges of the V in the 3.0T simply can't handle well in temps over about 80'F outside.

I did a comparo a while back and even a 1.9L eaton is only marginally better efficiency at say 18-19psi. You wouldn't pick up much from efficiency and could bake a pot roast with the discharge temps pre-IC.

The main thing you are forgetting is flow. A larger blower will flow far more air at the same boost level vs. our stock blower. Therefore more power can be made with less psi and less heat.

[saxon]

It's most likely because the factory motor can't handle the extra output

[skiptowncat]

A larger sc also has more parasitic losses, twin charged is defo the way to go..once you've replaced the rods, pistons, clutch packs, engine mounts...etc

[will13k7]

my theory is all of these attempts; apr stage-3, twin-charged, etc... can't get the car not to throw codes, or reliably handle the power, or both, so these will never be off-the-shelf productized, maybe some custom one offs though, but with some quirks.

[Compulsive]

So what is available past Stage II (pulley, tune, intake, exhaust)?

Are there any other performance upgrades available for the B8 in terms of HP?

I wish there were more ways of getting power. My B8 is begging to have 400whp but after the intake, pulley, 93 oct tune and exhaust it is pretty much tapped out.

[Vogz]

A larger sc also has more parasitic losses, twin charged is defo the way to go..once you've replaced the rods, pistons, clutch packs, engine mounts...etc

The extra parasitic loss pales in comparison to the extra power potential. Twin charging is not "definitely the way to go". Twin charging adds lots of complexity and could have unforeseen issues.

[Boris]

For those of you saying cost is an issue...are you telling me that the guys that have already shelled out $3k+ for a stage 2 plus mods wouldnt double that for 100whp more? Im here to tell you they would. This is essentially a world wild platform, there is plenty of market share unless I'm missing something. As far as the trans/engine, how many have popped with a stage 2 set up? Less than 1% I would imagine, which means the potential is already there. 500whp should be the norm for these cars modified reliably.

i know how you feel. I have looked at the existing superchargers available though and none I can see would fit our intake pattern...I suppose customizing something to mate together wouldnt be too hard... but many of the chargers I saw were not very low profile either...our stock unit is very compact considering it has internal charge cooling also.

Also I couldnt find many 6 cyclinder eaton or roots type chargers, I only found one or two and they didnt seem that much larger than what we run, as they were built for smaller 6 cyl. truck engines I think...

however, I hopefully am overlooking other units, I just looked at summit racing.

Is there a properly sized supercharger setup for 6 cylinders that is larger than, or outputs a fair amount more than our current charger? If there is, it would be interesting to see if we could strap one on with something to mate together...

Dealing with all the ridiculous pressure hoses currently on the supercharger and terminating some and keeping others would be beyond my capabilities, but possible.

Creating the new maps for the car would be well within different tuners skill set I think. No one has ever really addressed fueling though, I have no idea how much the existing injectors could flow given that they need to retain a very high pressure also...


I honestly think most 'tuners' in the us, havent really looked into fitting a domestic charger into the car before...

APR has a fantastic idea, that seems to exist, and is running, but they are clearly still testing it or ironing out issues... their ability to create a completely new charger cannot be considered without also noting their RS4 supercharger, which has many similarities it seems to the proposed stage 3 for the 3.0T...

that said, it may have been easier to create one new than use an existing unit, as it must be very compact..


the stock internals could definitely handle the power,people have pushed stock internals to 120 mph traps via no2 and just high octane maps repeatedly without any clear failure point, I have never heard of the australian problem,
it's not a matter of an exact number necessarily, but you would probably need to bleed off a fair amount of power from the very bottom to avoid a large surge low down in the rpm band, and rather taper it upwards in the rev range as best as you could so it didnt put so much stress on the rotating assembly right off the bat..