Truth on the RS4 clutch

[hoyte96]

So the time has come for me to choose a clutch for my stage 3 setup. I have literally spent hours reading about clutches and what is suitable for my setup. I have the complete AWE RSKO4 package with ECU tunes and the last piece of the puzzle is the clutch (already have a brand new OEM Dual Mass Flywheel) My first thought was to go with the RS4 PP and Disk, I'm not going to be launching as this is my daily driver. I plan on getting a bit more spirited at times and perhaps some highway pulls etc. but I do not foresee myself ragging the crap out of my car. It will probably never see the track and I'll be running primarily 91 octane as that's the highest you can get at the pump in this neck of the woods.

I've read mixed reviews about clutches for stage 3 setups, anyone ran the AWE package with an RS4 clutch setup? I can see the benefit of getting a more aggressive clutch combination but it is primarily a daily driven car so would an RS4 suffice and be easier to work with on a daily basis? Any first hand experience would be greatly appreciated, this is the last thing I'm waiting on ordering, once I have my clutch I will have the engine back in within a week or so.

[zillarob]

From what you describe, the rs4 setup would prob be ideal.
It can be beaten into submission if you try, but will prob be the longest lasting and smoothest driving setup if you drive like a sane person.

You might want to look into the b7rs4 setups (no need to get fancy on the disk). These parts are available stateside and quite a bit cheaper than the imported stuff.
The jhm/034 conversion setup is reasonably priced, or if you are the diy type, you can have the oem fw modded while at the machine shop.

[Peter1.8t]

http://www.fastaudi.com/?product=amd-stage-1

I have the AMD set up in my car. Drive great, holds power. Would buy again.

[zillarob]

http://www.fastaudi.com/?product=amd-stage-1

I have the AMD set up in my car. Drive great, holds power. Would buy again.

Does that come with a fw, or are they modding the pp to work with the stocker somehow?

[034Motorsport]

We've actually had pretty good luck with the off-the-shelf B5 Audi RS4 Clutch Kit, even on 100 octane PJK04 tunes. If you're not launching the car or shifting really hard, then it's not a bad choice.

I think our shop wagon had one in it for quite a while, which started slipping on the dyno when we were doing some E85 tuning on it. We just tossed a more aggressive SPEC disc in with the RS4 PP and called it a day.

That being said, if you're considering getting a lightweight flywheel as well, the B7 Audi RS4 Conversion Flywheel we make for JHM is a no-brainer. The B7 Audi RS4 clutches have more holding capacity, and are cheaper to replace.

[PinoyS4]

^^^^^^this. Just got done installing this Jhm stage 3 and feels great. I'm still amazed at the pedal travel and feel:)

[Wagonholic]

I'm currently running the OEM B5 RS4 Clutch and AWE Lightweight flywheel on what was an OTS AWE Stage 3 car (currently upgrading the fueling/tune). Its been on then car for over 16k miles and I drive the car in the canyons quite spiritedly. I don't launch the car and I heel-and-toe/rev-match every downshift I do though. I'm hoping the clutch will last many more miles on my new, more powerful setup once it is complete.

Pedal feel is somewhat heavy, but the feel is nice. I daily drive my car in LA traffic with no complaints.

[zillarob]

The "break-over" feel of the oem plates is very nice.
I think the pedal feedback on the engagement point makes it easier to drive.

The non sac aftermarket plates have a linear feel and many give an even softer pedal than stock.
They do work well, but def dont feel as good as the oem sac plates.

[Wagonholic]

I love the engagement point on the RS4 clutch. Very obvious, I've driven Porsches that don't have as nice pedal feel lol.
I'm hoping the clutch lasts many more miles, but when it goes out I'll probably replace it with an upgraded disc and OEM RS4 pp.

Not to thread jack, but what kind of life have people seen on the RS4 clutch with PJK04 setups, daily driving, no launching?

The "break-over" feel of the oem plates is very nice.
I think the pedal feedback on the engagement point makes it easier to drive.

The non sac aftermarket plates have a linear feel and many give an even softer pedal than stock.
They do work well, but def dont feel as good as the oem sac plates.

[Peter1.8t]

Does that come with a fw, or are they modding the pp to work with the stocker somehow?

I vaguely remember Jason saying something about the PP having to be made to certain specs to accommodate the B5 FW.

I can double check with him on that for you if you'd like.

[zillarob]

One buddy is a ways over 300k now pjk04 and pjrs4. Iirc he went stg3 at like 150k.

Another got a hard (and I do mean hard) 170k pjk04 and oem fw/rs4 pp with a ferramic disk.

I think the b7rs4 setups are the way to go nowadays though.
No more plastic sac and cheaper because they are available here without having to import.

[christianb5s4]

I'm currently running the OEM B5 RS4 Clutch and AWE Lightweight flywheel on what was an OTS AWE Stage 3 car (currently upgrading the fueling/tune). Its been on then car for over 16k miles and I drive the car in the canyons quite spiritedly. I don't launch the car and I heel-and-toe/rev-match every downshift I do though. I'm hoping the clutch will last many more miles on my new, more powerful setup once it is complete.

Pedal feel is somewhat heavy, but the feel is nice. I daily drive my car in LA traffic with no complaints.

How in the world do you heel toe on this car? I am no stranger to heel toe and canyon driving, but the pedal placement in the B5 S4 is a ways off from being ideal for that. At least in my car.

[Wagonholic]

How in the world do you heel toe on this car? I am no stranger to heel toe and canyon driving, but the pedal placement in the B5 S4 is a ways off from being ideal for that. At least in my car.

I picked up a set of AWE Aluminum Pedal covers for $50 on eBay a while back. Having the Malibu Canyons in my backyard doesn't hurt either .
The JHM SS and AWE Pedal combination is one of my favorite mods on this car.

[Peter1.8t]

How in the world do you heel toe on this car? I am no stranger to heel toe and canyon driving, but the pedal placement in the B5 S4 is a ways off from being ideal for that. At least in my car.

The pedal placement is way off from ideal but you can put the side of your foot on the brake and rollover to blip the gas. It's rough but it works.

[julex]

AMD managed to make B6/B7 Rs4 PP with a disc combo that fits onto stock B5 FW. SO you get OEM RS4 PP with its mighty clamp power and your choice of disc for it. For what you describe, Stage 1 or 2 would be perfect and would allow you to exercise the clutch as well if you so desire. Cost is about ~750 shipped for ANY STAGE you want, up to stage 4 with 850ft/lb+ holding capacity.

JHM has similar set up but they make you buy their aluminum flywheel to fit B6/B7 PP to it. Besides that I hate aluminum flywheel with a passion (a failure of one forced me to buy new FW and clutch as well as damaged my tranny), AMD is smaller out of pocket expense for same think and you can choose any B5 FW you want.

[christianb5s4]

I picked up a set of AWE Aluminum Pedal covers for $50 on eBay a while back. Having the Malibu Canyons in my backyard doesn't hurt either .
The JHM SS and AWE Pedal combination is one of my favorite mods on this car.

I have the JHM SS, still need to get the solid linkage though. Those pedals are on my list too! I miss having the canyons right there when I was up at Pepperdine

The pedal placement is way off from ideal but you can put the side of your foot on the brake and rollover to blip the gas. It's rough but it works.

I've tried that, just feels really unnatural and hard to find consistency.

AMD managed to make B6/B7 Rs4 PP with a disc combo that fits onto stock B5 FW. SO you get OEM RS4 PP with its mighty clamp power and your choice of disc for it. For what you describe, Stage 1 or 2 would be perfect and would allow you to exercise the clutch as well if you so desire. Cost is about ~750 shipped for ANY STAGE you want, up to stage 4 with 850ft/lb+ holding capacity.

JHM has similar set up but they make you buy their aluminum flywheel to fit B6/B7 PP to it. Besides that I hate aluminum flywheel with a passion (a failure of one forced me to buy new FW and clutch as well as damaged my tranny), AMD is smaller out of pocket expense for same think and you can choose any B5 FW you want.

Do you think a JHM single mass flywheel and the AMD B6/7 RS4 PP would jive together?

[BITRBO]

From what you describe, the rs4 setup would prob be ideal.
It can be beaten into submission if you try, but will prob be the longest lasting and smoothest driving setup if you drive like a sane person.

You might want to look into the b7rs4 setups (no need to get fancy on the disk). These parts are available stateside and quite a bit cheaper than the imported stuff.
The jhm/034 conversion setup is reasonably priced, or if you are the diy type, you can have the oem fw modded while at the machine shop.

We've actually had pretty good luck with the off-the-shelf B5 Audi RS4 Clutch Kit, even on 100 octane PJK04 tunes. If you're not launching the car or shifting really hard, then it's not a bad choice.

I think our shop wagon had one in it for quite a while, which started slipping on the dyno when we were doing some E85 tuning on it. We just tossed a more aggressive SPEC disc in with the RS4 PP and called it a day.

That being said, if you're considering getting a lightweight flywheel as well, the B7 Audi RS4 Conversion Flywheel we make for JHM is a no-brainer. The B7 Audi RS4 clutches have more holding capacity, and are cheaper to replace.

One buddy is a ways over 300k now pjk04 and pjrs4. Iirc he went stg3 at like 150k.

Another got a hard (and I do mean hard) 170k pjk04 and oem fw/rs4 pp with a ferramic disk.

I think the b7rs4 setups are the way to go nowadays though.
No more plastic sac and cheaper because they are available here without having to import.

^All this. Stage 3 folks ran RS4 clutches for YEARS and it was totally fine... It was only until the advent of the Uber Stage 3 (i.e. GT and Tial kits) when folks realized they needed more clamping force. The TQ was just too much. I consider my Stage 2+ to be fairly strong and have been running a Vast RS4 clutch for 5-6yrs now with decent abuse and track time, and not a single hiccup or slippage. I was amazed at the streetability and still love the pedal feel to this day. It's perfect for a daily driver IMO.

The pedal placement is way off from ideal but you can put the side of your foot on the brake and rollover to blip the gas. It's rough but it works.

That's basically what I do. It's more of a ball-to-ball roll vs. a true heel-toe, but it works.

I have the JHM SS, still need to get the solid linkage though. Those pedals are on my list too! I miss having the canyons right there when I was up at Pepperdine

I've tried that, just feels really unnatural and hard to find consistency.

Do you think a JHM single mass flywheel and the AMD B6/7 RS4 PP would jive together?

Yeah, it's definitely a bit awkward and I still haven't mastered it, but I try to practice on the street when I can and that has helped. Also, I got one of those aluminum pedal kits not that long ago that really helped, cause it arches the gas pedal a bit and there is a "flap" on it too, so you don't have to contort as much. I recommend getting the knurled version though if you do - the traction is awesome! But be careful cause it'll fuck up a nice pair of shoes if this is your daily driver... But you can literally hang on the edge of any of the pedals by a toenail and never slip off. I love it.

[julex]

Do you think a JHM single mass flywheel and the AMD B6/7 RS4 PP would jive together?

Doubt it, it must be specific B5 crankshaft mount style and height but B6/B7 PP mount on top to take straight B6/B7 PP.

I believe that only option is to get that aluminum POS aluminum FW from JHM (POS b/c it is aluminum not because it is JHM making it!) for it to work or inquire at TTV Racing and have a custom billet FW made that will have these characteristics.

I was quoted ~$500 shipped for such flywheel (30 british pounds over stock billet steel B5 unit to do the modifications). According to ben @ TTV, it would take them about 3 days to run the milling job and 2 days for delivery of this from Great Britain, all included in price.

I eventually went with stock B5 style since I got AMD B7 PP clutch which bolts to B5 FW. Shipping was lightning fast, shipped monday night from Great Britain and was here Wednesday mid-day (east coast).

You can find thread on this if you search "Findanza flywheel failed" made by me.

[ECS Tuning-Audi]

OEM RS4 clutches are where it's at if you need solid clamping force and want reliability.

We've had a customer run an RS4 clutch for over 180k miles. Not one issue.

Jason

[LakeTahoeQuattr]

Doubt it, it must be specific B5 crankshaft mount style and height but B6/B7 PP mount on top to take straight B6/B7 PP.

I believe that only option is to get that aluminum POS aluminum FW from JHM (POS b/c it is aluminum not because it is JHM making it!) for it to work or inquire at TTV Racing and have a custom billet FW made that will have these characteristics.

I was quoted ~$500 shipped for such flywheel (30 british pounds over stock billet steel B5 unit to do the modifications). According to ben @ TTV, it would take them about 3 days to run the milling job and 2 days for delivery of this from Great Britain, all included in price.

I eventually went with stock B5 style since I got AMD B7 PP clutch which bolts to B5 FW. Shipping was lightning fast, shipped monday night from Great Britain and was here Wednesday mid-day (east coast).

You can find thread on this if you search "Findanza flywheel failed" made by me.

I asked Ben @ TTV if he could make me the b7 to b5 fly and her had no idea what I was talking about. So I just forgot about it and bought the b5 fly from them with a OE Sachs RS4 PP and clutch. Should fit nicely

[julex]

I asked Ben @ TTV if he could make me the b7 to b5 fly and her had no idea what I was talking about. So I just forgot about it and bought the b5 fly from them with a OE Sachs RS4 PP and clutch. Should fit nicely

WEll, I have emails stating otherwise and I could provide them to jolt his memory

[christianb5s4]

^All this. Stage 3 folks ran RS4 clutches for YEARS and it was totally fine... It was only until the advent of the Uber Stage 3 (i.e. GT and Tial kits) when folks realized they needed more clamping force. The TQ was just too much. I consider my Stage 2+ to be fairly strong and have been running a Vast RS4 clutch for 5-6yrs now with decent abuse and track time, and not a single hiccup or slippage. I was amazed at the streetability and still love the pedal feel to this day. It's perfect for a daily driver IMO.



That's basically what I do. It's more of a ball-to-ball roll vs. a true heel-toe, but it works.



Yeah, it's definitely a bit awkward and I still haven't mastered it, but I try to practice on the street when I can and that has helped. Also, I got one of those aluminum pedal kits not that long ago that really helped, cause it arches the gas pedal a bit and there is a "flap" on it too, so you don't have to contort as much. I recommend getting the knurled version though if you do - the traction is awesome! But be careful cause it'll fuck up a nice pair of shoes if this is your daily driver... But you can literally hang on the edge of any of the pedals by a toenail and never slip off. I love it.

I can't wait, I haven't decided which pedals to get but I haven't really hit the canyons much with the B5.

Doubt it, it must be specific B5 crankshaft mount style and height but B6/B7 PP mount on top to take straight B6/B7 PP.

I believe that only option is to get that aluminum POS aluminum FW from JHM (POS b/c it is aluminum not because it is JHM making it!) for it to work or inquire at TTV Racing and have a custom billet FW made that will have these characteristics.

Oh I read your flywheel thread, I haven't had any issues. I definitely like the increased shifting speed with a light weight flywheel, I don't know if I could go back to a dual mass at this point.

[Scotty@Advanced]

I definitely like the increased shifting speed with a light weight flywheel, I don't know if I could go back to a dual mass at this point.

Shifting speed or quality has nothing to do with the flywheel.

[RicoS4]

How in the world do you heel toe on this car? I am no stranger to heel toe and canyon driving, but the pedal placement in the B5 S4 is a ways off from being ideal for that. At least in my car.

Oh trust me you can eventho the pedal placement in the S4 is way off and that's me coming from the Bimmer scene lol

You'll just get used to it.

[christianb5s4]

Shifting speed or quality has nothing to do with the flywheel.

No necessarily quality, but I was under the impression that faster shifts were enabled by a lighter flywheel decreasing rotational mass hence allowing the engine to rev up and down more quickly?

Oh trust me you can eventho the pedal placement in the S4 is way off and that's me coming from the Bimmer scene lol

You'll just get used to it.

Haha, I came from a 370Z with decently well placed pedals so it's an adjustment for sure!

[RicoS4]

No necessarily quality, but I was under the impression that faster shifts were enabled by a lighter flywheel decreasing rotational mass hence allowing the engine to rev up and down more quickly?



Haha, I came from a 370Z with decently well placed pedals so it's an adjustment for sure!

370z

[julex]

No necessarily quality, but I was under the impression that faster shifts were enabled by a lighter flywheel decreasing rotational mass hence allowing the engine to rev up and down more quickly?

That and lightened friction disc helps too since synchros can brake/accelerate shaft on shifts quicker allowing for gear to go in sooner.

[christianb5s4]

370z

It was a fun car, full bolt ons, coilovers, RE-11s. But I never really loved it, felt more like a blunt instrument and was more of an 8/10ths car. Just wasn't rewarding trying to go past that. But it was super solid, super reliable, and looks pretty dang good.

That and lightened friction disc helps too since synchros can brake/accelerate shaft on shifts quicker allowing for gear to go in sooner.

That's what I thought, minus the trans info. It's confusing whether I should go back to dual mass or not when I do the clutch after seeing so many conflicting opinions.

[julex]

It was a fun car, full bolt ons, coilovers, RE-11s. But I never really loved it, felt more like a blunt instrument and was more of an 8/10ths car. Just wasn't rewarding trying to go past that. But it was super solid, super reliable, and looks pretty dang good.



That's what I thought, minus the trans info. It's confusing whether I should go back to dual mass or not when I do the clutch after seeing so many conflicting opinions.

Do the best of two worlds, get a billet steel FW at ~20lb.

[christianb5s4]

Best of both worlds is always a good thing, noted on the billet steel option. Thanks julex.

[slow ride]

Like Scotty said, the flywheel and pressure plate will let the engine change speeds faster, but not reduce load on the transmission. Need to keep the clutch disk weight down as much as possible if you are looking for really fast high rpm shifting.

[f4m0u5]

Any one kn ow weight of stock disk? I have a rs4 disk new sitting around and also a spec stage 3 + disk new sitting around deciding what to pair up with my rs4 pp.

I belive the spec disk is 1 lb heavier then rs4. Does 1lb make that much of a difference?
Also with the spec stage 3+ disk is that doing to chew up the pp and flywheel? The rs4 disk feels flimsy and brittle and of a soft material, and spec stage 3+ disk feels almost all metal

[julex]

Any one kn ow weight of stock disk? I have a rs4 disk new sitting around and also a spec stage 3 + disk new sitting around deciding what to pair up with my rs4 pp.

I belive the spec disk is 1 lb heavier then rs4. Does 1lb make that much of a difference?
Also with the spec stage 3+ disk is that doing to chew up the pp and flywheel? The rs4 disk feels flimsy and brittle and of a soft material, and spec stage 3+ disk feels almost all metal

You're also looking at big difference in tq holding capacity. Organic rs4 disc can barely hold stage 3 and forget about lunching et c, it will.simply burn. It will last 100k+ miles if driven gently. Stage 3+ is a different animal. Much shorter life, will chew metal surfaces but can hold and take tons of abuse. Choose your poison.

[james 408]

had rs4 clutch with aftermarket disc, worked great for 10-15k then started slipping. failed PP; saw a few posts about failed PP's as well.

no chatter w/aluminum flywheel on that setup, for me.

[julex]

had rs4 clutch with aftermarket disc, worked great for 10-15k then started slipping. failed PP; saw a few posts about failed PP's as well.

no chatter w/aluminum flywheel on that setup, for me.

That's B5 RS4, B6/B7 is much more resilient.

[zillarob]

Did some looking and seems like etka lists the same part# for pretty much all the v8 cars of that era? 079198141X for the kit.
Hard to say what magic the vendors throw at them though, so keep that in mind.

The main differences I see are:
Step height on fw is different. b5 ~7mm and b7 is ~9mm.
The locating dowels are different sizes (same location).
The ears on the b7 friction plate are larger and do not fit the cutouts on the b5 fw.

Theses are the ears and cutouts:

b5


b7



It looks like you could do a bolt on oem setup using the fw out of an 05ish v8 car and a luk repset.
These fw look to be pretty spendy though and would prob be better off with aftermarket.

If you want to cobble something together on the cheap, could prob use a fw out of something like an 04 a4 3.0 AVK and a luk repset.
The only diff I see is the step height of ~5mm so you would need to shim the pp ~4mm.
Looks like you could put this together for ~4hundo if you shop around.

[Wagonholic]

^All this. Stage 3 folks ran RS4 clutches for YEARS and it was totally fine... It was only until the advent of the Uber Stage 3 (i.e. GT and Tial kits) when folks realized they needed more clamping force. The TQ was just too much. I consider my Stage 2+ to be fairly strong and have been running a Vast RS4 clutch for 5-6yrs now with decent abuse and track time, and not a single hiccup or slippage. I was amazed at the streetability and still love the pedal feel to this day. It's perfect for a daily driver IMO.

If you think about it...PJK04 Cars are just S4's with RS4 power. So I don't see the problem with putting a B5 RS4 clutch in the car. The cars came with them from the factory in Europe with similar power levels and they seem fine

[bradthebold]

PJK04 cars make significantly more power than a stock RS4 (375 bhp / 325 ft/lb). ~150-200 ft/lbs of torque more than it was designed for is a lot.

[f4m0u5]

So using the metalic disk will shorten my life of the clutch that much? I thought people were using the auto speed stage 4 clutch and lasting alot of miles. And those have. Metalic disk with a b5 pp dont they? Some one said they got it to last 170k...

[zillarob]

Ask James how many sets of tires he went through in that same 10-15k