2.0T FSI Coil conversion DWELL SETTINGS

[f1torrents]

It is very popular these days to swap in some TFSI,FSI,TSI coils.
The most popular these days is the Red Top 06E905115E coils.

These coils are said to be more powerful, better for high boost, better for larger plug gaps, and of course they are red so they make your car faster...

They are longer than the traditional 1.8T coils. There are endless adapters available from your favorite aftermarket parts provider, although I have never used them. I simply remove the rubber boots from the stock 1.8T coils and "double stack" them with the ones that are on the FSI ones. The fit is nice and I have never had one come loose.

Reliability...

There is a common theme with these coils. Premature failure

This is thought to have been related to back coil wiring harness, bad plugs, bad ECU, too large plug gaps etc etc etc..
I myself have lost a few 2.0T GTI black top coils and when I bought a set of the new best thing red tops I wanted to see what was going on before I installed them.

Doing some research I found a lot of talk of DWELL.

DWELL or "tsrldyn" is the acronym Bosch uses

tsrldyn {Last- und Dynamikkorrigierte Schließzeit}
tsrldyn { Load and dynamic Corrected closing time }

Its how long the ECU charges the coil in Milliseconds


There is basically 4 "MAPS" that need to be grafted over from the 2.0T ECU to the 1.8t/2.7t/ whatever standard coil engine you are swapping to. I cannot take credit for figuring this out. Some of the guys over at nefmoto have been debating about this long before I started to even think about dwell.
I used a 2010 FSI ECU to get the settings for the 2.0T coil maps and then compared and altered my 2.7T BEL ECU to use the settings from the 2.0T.
There are endless combinations of calculations the ECU uses to set the charge time at any given moment. These 4 maps are what is referenced to calculate it depending on conditions.

The "traditional" coils seem to like around 2.5-3.0MS and can go up to 3.5MS from what I have seen.
The "FSI" coils seem to like 2.0-2.5MS and the highest I have seen is 2.8MS.
It seems overcharging these to 3.5MS can cause them to fail, as seem quite regularly.

The maps are:
-KFTSRL
-FSWTM
-KFSZDUB
-FTSDRLW

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2.0T Coil DWELL MAPS

kftsrl
3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00
3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00
2.60 2.30 2.30 2.40 2.40 2.60 2.70 2.90 3.00 3.00
2.40 2.20 2.30 2.30 2.40 2.60 2.70 2.80 2.90 2.90
2.10 2.00 2.10 2.10 2.20 2.50 2.60 2.80 2.90 2.90
1.90 1.80 1.90 2.00 2.10 2.30 2.50 2.70 2.80 2.80
1.60 1.70 1.80 1.80 1.90 2.10 2.30 2.50 2.70 2.70
1.50 1.60 1.70 1.70 1.80 1.90 2.10 2.30 2.50 2.50
1.50 1.50 1.60 1.60 1.70 1.80 1.90 2.10 2.30 2.30

fswtm
1.00
1.00
1.00
1.00
1.00

kfszdub
3.25 3.56 3.84 4.88 5.88 6.25 5.91 5.56 5.00 4.56 4.38 4.16 4.00 3.34 3.19 2.78
1.88 1.91 1.94 2.00 2.03 2.19 2.28 2.38 2.69 3.28 3.31 3.34 3.22 2.66 2.53 2.22
1.25 1.28 1.28 1.28 1.28 1.31 1.34 1.34 1.38 1.41 1.44 1.47 1.50 1.72 1.66 1.44
1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00
0.97 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94 0.94
0.91 0.91 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88
0.81 0.81 0.78 0.78 0.78 0.78 0.78 0.78 0.75 0.75 0.75 0.75 0.78 0.78 0.81 0.81

ftsdrlw
1.00
1.00
1.00
1.00
1.00
1.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.7T APB DWELL MAPS


kftsrl
3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00
3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00
3.00 2.90 2.60 2.50 2.50 2.50 2.40 2.90 3.00 3.00
2.60 2.40 2.10 2.00 2.00 2.10 2.20 2.50 2.90 3.00
1.80 1.80 1.80 1.80 1.80 2.00 2.10 2.40 2.90 3.00
1.40 1.60 1.70 1.70 1.80 2.00 2.10 2.40 2.90 3.00
1.40 1.50 1.60 1.70 1.80 2.00 2.10 2.40 3.00 3.00
1.40 1.40 1.50 1.60 1.70 1.80 2.10 2.40 3.00 3.00
1.40 1.40 1.40 1.50 1.60 1.70 1.90 2.10 2.40 2.50

fswtm
1.50
1.50
1.50
1.00
1.00

kfszdub
3.53 3.66 3.88 4.13 4.91 6.59 6.94 7.97 7.97 7.97 7.97 7.97 7.72 7.41 5.97 5.28
2.13 2.19 2.22 2.25 2.38 2.44 2.50 2.59 2.69 2.97 3.25 4.78 4.59 4.41 3.56 3.16
1.53 1.56 1.56 1.59 1.63 1.66 1.66 1.69 1.72 1.75 1.78 1.84 1.91 2.13 1.72 1.53
1.19 1.19 1.22 1.22 1.22 1.22 1.22 1.25 1.25 1.25 1.28 1.28 1.28 1.31 1.47 1.28
1.09 1.09 1.09 1.09 1.09 1.09 1.09 1.09 1.09 1.13 1.13 1.13 1.13 1.13 1.25 1.13
1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00
0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.84 0.81 0.81 0.81 0.75 0.75


ftsdrlw
2.00
2.00
2.00
2.00
2.00
2.00

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2.7T BEL DWELL MAPS

kftsrl
3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00
3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00 3.00
3.00 2.60 2.40 2.30 2.40 2.60 2.70 2.80 2.90 2.90
3.00 2.40 2.20 2.20 2.40 2.60 2.60 2.70 2.70 2.70
2.70 2.10 2.00 1.90 2.20 2.40 2.50 2.60 2.70 2.70
2.60 1.90 1.70 1.70 2.00 2.20 2.30 2.50 2.70 2.70
2.00 1.60 1.60 1.70 1.90 2.00 2.20 2.40 2.60 2.70
1.60 1.40 1.50 1.60 1.80 1.90 2.00 2.20 2.50 2.60
1.40 1.40 1.40 1.50 1.70 1.80 1.90 2.00 2.30 2.40

fswtm
1.50
1.50
1.50
1.00
1.00

kfszdub
2.94 3.06 3.25 3.84 5.88 6.25 5.56 5.00 4.56 4.16 3.84 3.56 3.34 3.03 2.78 2.50
1.81 1.81 1.88 1.94 2.03 2.19 2.38 2.69 3.28 3.34 3.09 2.88 2.66 2.41 2.22 2.00
1.22 1.22 1.25 1.28 1.28 1.31 1.34 1.38 1.41 1.47 1.53 1.75 1.72 1.59 1.44 1.31
1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00 1.00
0.91 0.91 0.91 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.88 0.91
0.84 0.81 0.81 0.78 0.78 0.78 0.78 0.75 0.75 0.75 0.78 0.78 0.78 0.81 0.81 0.81
0.63 0.59 0.59 0.59 0.56 0.56 0.56 0.53 0.53 0.53 0.53 0.56 0.59 0.63 0.66 0.69



ftsdrlw
3.00
3.00
3.00
3.00
3.00
3.00


STOCK 2.7T BEL LOG



2.0T DWELL MAPS GRAFTED TO 2.7T BEL






The idea is the same for any other ECU, you just have to find the maps, copy the changes over and correct the check-sum. Because every ECU part number has the maps in completely different addresses in the file it will be up to you/your tuner/a tuner friend to find the maps in your ECU for you to complete the changes.

Here is a log of my before and after. I did not do a 3rd gear from 3k to redline for a few reasons. I didn't have anyone to hold the laptop and star/stop the logger. second I wanted to see "an average" of the dwell during regular driving in all gears/loads/speeds.

The differences are small but so far I have had zero issues with my coils and under WOT I have zero misfires.

I'm using copper NGK BKRE7 @ .035" 21 PSI boost 2.7T BEL engine.

I will update this with the addresses for specific ECU's as they become available. If you have any please post them up for the others to use.
I'm not sure how technical this thread will get but lets see where it goes from here.

[Siggiepop]

interesting

I've been running the Red tops for 2 years now and not a single one has failed on me yet.

[Seerlah]

Thanks a bunch for this!

I don't know how to tune, but texted person remote tuning my car to look at this thread and adjust my tune accordingly. He's an OG of this section.

interesting

I've been running the Red tops for 2 years now and not a single one has failed on me yet.

I am running the black TSI coils, and they have always had a bad rep compared to the others. But if this will help optimize my setup, I'm all for it. I'm not a big fan of driving and then having to deal with a blown ignition coil. I would suspect the R8 coils to be worlds better than the TSI, but I don't think I will have the chance to experience it if all goes well (as far as longevity is concerned).

[walky_talky20]

The original black TSI coils (06H 905 115 made by Bosch) have been updated twice now. The newest ones have a "B" on the end. I think a lot of the failures were from the early adopters that didn't get the updates. Then again the red ones didn't need 2 updates to work properly, so it might just be a lousy design from the get-go.

My brother had the original 06H (no A or B on the end) on his 1.8T and ~2 years in he has had 2 of them fail. I bought the Red ones at the same time (06B 905 115E, "R8" coils) and have not had a failure yet. Although I feel one might be getting weak.

[Seerlah]

Well that would explain it.

[diagnosticator]

Running coil charge times aka Dwell longer than necessary specific to a certain coil pack design version, only results in overheating the coil pack. Longer charge times, more than required to fully saturate the coil magnetic field, does not increase coil secondary output, it only increases the heating of the primary coil winding and coilpack power switching electronics. This is why the charge timing must be correctly implemented in the ECU maps.

Thanks for posting this important info here!

[f1torrents]

I'm glad this is generating discussion.
There is no doubt in my mind leaving the stock dwell will shorten the life of 2.0T coils.

Just FYI my black top fsi coils were the latest revision at the time
06H 905 115 B
And I lost 2 of those very early in their life, on the stock dwell.

[GrapeBandit]

nice post OP. I have been running the red R8 coils for a few months with no change to my ecu dwell maps. hopefully they last

[texasboy21]

Great info!

[evo_ski]

I blew out 2 06h coils pretty quickly. I am running mismatched stock ones that have probably 100k+ on them, but the 06h's couldn't go more than 30k for me. I am inclined to try the red top r8's but am worried I am just throwing $90 away.

[B6A4Dave]

Someone get Motoza in here!!

[vjborelli]

Do you happen to have the HEX address for these maps? I have a 518AF ECM, but I also have a definition file started for the 518F and 518AK.

[MikTip]

Awesome info!

Thanks!

[Charles.waite]

Good info. I'm interested to know how the 07K-905-715F coils work for everyone else. I've been running mine on a standard APR 1/1+ tune for over 2 years now without a single failure. Granted I'm not exactly pushing things, but no misfires, not a single spark related issue in the entire time I've run them.

These are the ones I'm talking about:
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Volksw.../dp/B005FMU21U

[00passat]

Someone get Motoza in here!!

IIRC Motoza changed the maps on both my 1.8t to run the 2.0t coils. He told me he changed the dwell in the tune.

[drjonez]

Good info. I'm interested to know how the 07K-905-715F coils work for everyone else. I've been running mine on a standard APR 1/1+ tune for over 2 years now without a single failure. Granted I'm not exactly pushing things, but no misfires, not a single spark related issue in the entire time I've run them.

These are the ones I'm talking about:
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Volksw.../dp/B005FMU21U

I switched to the 07Ks and they seem to be failing at the same rate as the 06Hs. :(

I need to get off my duff and finish my tune....with the proper dwell settings.

[f1torrents]

Good info. I'm interested to know how the 07K-905-715F coils work for everyone else. I've been running mine on a standard APR 1/1+ tune for over 2 years now without a single failure. Granted I'm not exactly pushing things, but no misfires, not a single spark related issue in the entire time I've run them.

These are the ones I'm talking about:
http://www.amazon.com/Genuine-Volksw.../dp/B005FMU21U

Have you ever done a WOT 3rd gear pull and logged for misfires on all cylinders?
I would be interested to see if those are more resilient than the other part numbers.

[Charles.waite]

Have you ever done a WOT 3rd gear pull and logged for misfires on all cylinders?
I would be interested to see if those are more resilient than the other part numbers.

Not while logging, no. I was in Mexico once and did a WOT pull to redline through 4th and don't recall any misfires or bad behavior.

Unfortunately, I live in the middle of Seattle, so finding open space to log a 3rd gear pull is really tough.

[evo_ski]

Yeah. Remember when you got that speeding ticket logging last time? Har har har.

[a4darkness]

Solid thread.

R8 coils here. Certainly felt a difference after upgrading from the black top 2.0T/FSI Coil Packs (06H 905 115 A).
Still on Revo I so the tune isn't effecting anything. But that plus running the newer (non 1.8t) coils allows for -11 plugs, a nice addition as well.
Heads up, GAP has em on sale.

[Rabbit]

Yeah. Remember when you got that speeding ticket logging last time? Har har har.

Remember that time he blew up my engine?

[Charles.waite]

Yeah. Remember when you got that speeding ticket logging last time? Har har har.

Yea....that was stupid.

[kneel]

I too run R8 coils as the FSI coils kept crapping out. Since the swap no issues

[Matt Devo]

been running the R8 (07K) coils now for almost a year? no issues at all, but I keep a spare in the trunk just in case.

[diuvic]

been running the R8 (07K) coils now for almost a year? no issues at all, but I keep a spare in the trunk just in case.

Running the R8 coil packs without changing the dwell settings? 3.0 owner interested in buying these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[linust]

Unfortunately, I live in the middle of Seattle, so finding open space to log a 3rd gear pull is really tough.

Airport Way on the east side of Boeing Field at night.


Sent using Tapatalk

[Charles.waite]

Airport Way on the east side of Boeing Field at night.


Sent using Tapatalk

Nice tip! I'll try to remember that.

[evo_ski]

What about freeway on ramps? Seems like that is the perfect place. Obviously you would have to wait until after rush hour, but if you hit start on the computer and then hammer it on the on ramp you should be able to get some real good data that way I would think.

[Charles.waite]

What about freeway on ramps? Seems like that is the perfect place. Obviously you would have to wait until after rush hour, but if you hit start on the computer and then hammer it on the on ramp you should be able to get some real good data that way I would think.

You'd need a decent sized shoulder to get it setup and wait for enough time. Freeways are tough though because they're always busy around me. you basically need enough space to get from 15-20mph to 80-90 or so in 3rd gear.

I'd rather find a place without any other cars though. Busy highways aren't ideal, even if its just an onramp.

[jaydeff]

Running the R8 coil packs without changing the dwell settings? 3.0 owner interested in buying these.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I run them in my 3.0 with no modifications and they work great. I don't think anyone here knows where the dwell settings are for our ECUs anyway. I'm trying to map a few things in my spare time but I haven't done much recently.

[Seerlah]

I do 2nd gear WOT pulls for logging. Custom tuned from 2nd gear WOT pulls (~60mph).

[Charles.waite]

I do 2nd gear WOT pulls for logging. Custom tuned from 2nd gear WOT pulls (~60mph).

Oh really? Ok, I'd heard that 3rd gear was better as you get a bit better resolution. Good to know.

[diuvic]

I run them in my 3.0 with no modifications and they work great. I don't think anyone here knows where the dwell settings are for our ECUs anyway. I'm trying to map a few things in my spare time but I haven't done much recently.

Sweet. I'm glad I don't have to mess with anything. I'm glad these are also on sale right now. The R8 ones are $17 or so vs $34 for the the regular A4 version.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[f1torrents]

The R8 ones seem to be "stronger" or more resistant to failing with the higher stress load from the longer dwell time, but they are not designed or intended to run at the stock 3.0, 1.8t, 2.7t, 2.8, 4.2 old school settings.
For the longest life it is best to alter the dwell maps.

[ricekikr]

How exactly do they fail? Working one day, dead the next or gradually increasing misfires?

What's the difference between 06e and 06b r8 coils? What's the longest lasting coils right now?

Did you also set TSMX to something like 2.5? In the ME3/5 it's set to 3.48

[drjonez]

How exactly do they fail? Working one day, dead the next or gradually increasing misfires?

My experience has been gradually reduced performance- starts out OK at X gap and Y boost....then begins to misfire @ Y boost, so you reduce gap (or boost) by Z to eliminate misfire....then they begin to misfire at X-Z gap and Y boost. You get the idea. If you play that out a bit they do get a point of non operation.

[ricekikr]

My experience has been gradually reduced performance- starts out OK at X gap and Y boost....then begins to misfire @ Y boost, so you reduce gap (or boost) by Z to eliminate misfire....then they begin to misfire at X-Z gap and Y boost. You get the idea. If you play that out a bit they do get a point of non operation.

Well looks like mine are gone then. Been trying to look for 2.0 dwell (off and on) since I installed my coils. Too late lol. But thanks to OP (and Nefmoto Forum) my next set won't die soon.

Also whats the part number of r8 coils? I have 06E 905 115E couldn't find the part number posted above 06B 905 115E


======

Here's some maps from the me3/5, in case some me3/5 users come to this thread.

ME5, either doesn't have TSMX or has a different value from the me3.

The map id's seem to be slightly different compared to me7 maps.But values are somewhat close.

KFSZDUB

3.5313 3.6563 3.8750 4.1250 4.9063 6.5938 6.9375 7.9688 7.9688 7.9688 7.9688 7.9688 7.7188 7.4063 5.9688 5.2813
2.1250 2.1875 2.2188 2.2500 2.3750 2.4375 2.5000 2.5938 2.6875 2.9688 3.2500 4.7813 4.5938 4.4063 3.5625 3.1563
1.5313 1.5625 1.5625 1.5938 1.6250 1.6563 1.6563 1.6875 1.7188 1.7500 1.7813 1.8438 1.9063 2.1250 1.7188 1.5313
1.1875 1.1875 1.2188 1.2188 1.2188 1.2188 1.2188 1.2500 1.2500 1.2500 1.2813 1.2813 1.2813 1.3125 1.4688 1.2813
1.0938 1.0938 1.0938 1.0938 1.0938 1.0938 1.0938 1.0938 1.0938 1.1250 1.1250 1.1250 1.1250 1.1250 1.2500 1.1250
1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000
0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8438 0.8125 0.8125 0.8125 0.7500 0.7500

KFTSL

2820.0 2640.0 1800.0 1980.0 2100.0 2340.0 2640.0 2640.0 2640.0 2640.0
2760.0 2520.0 1740.0 1800.0 1920.0 2100.0 2280.0 2400.0 2520.0 2640.0
1620.0 1560.0 1440.0 1440.0 1800.0 1920.0 2220.0 2400.0 2520.0 2520.0
1260.0 1260.0 1320.0 1320.0 1500.0 1920.0 2040.0 2280.0 2400.0 2400.0
1140.0 1200.0 1200.0 1200.0 1380.0 1680.0 1920.0 2040.0 2100.0 2220.0
1080.0 1080.0 1080.0 1140.0 1200.0 1500.0 1680.0 1740.0 1920.0 2100.0
1080.0 1080.0 1080.0 1080.0 1140.0 1320.0 1500.0 1680.0 1920.0 2100.0
1080.0 1080.0 1080.0 1080.0 1140.0 1200.0 1380.0 1620.0 1800.0 1920.0

FTSDTLW
1.0469 1.1016 1.1484 1.2031 1.2578 1.3125

Couldn't find FSWTM or google what it's for, this is the closest map in value
TZSWDYN
0.70 0.60 0.50 0.40 0.30 0.30

[ricekikr]

Just replaced plugs (less than 1k old) bigger gap than my normal (.034 vs .026, bkr7e), changed dwell (KFSZDUB, KFTSL and FTSDTLW only, on a Me5). It ran significantly better than compared to the foul plugs (of course ). Hopefully it stops my plugs from fouling this time.

Could the coils be overheating when driving for prolonged periods with a couple 1-5th gear wots in between due to the 1.8t dwell? My plugs always foul so quickly, around 2-3k miles. But as soon as they're replaced everything's back to normal.

[dfaudi]

I just hooked up to an aem infinity setup on my a4 using fsi coils and theres a coil dwell table in Battery Volts VS RPM. What axes are those posted bosche tables shown in?