Oil talk: Rotella T6 is not that good after all

[julex]

About a year ago or so when I was reading about oils, I noticed a couple of oil brands sporting titanium as anti wear additive in lieu of ZZDP. These oil came with excellent wear characteristic but the price at that time was pretty crazy for an oil change so I just poured Rotella T6 in.

I was browsing local walmart yesterday for my wife's oil change (nissan, so I didn't really care what to put into that) and I noticed new line of Castrol Edge oil with Titanium additive in them. What was pretty surprising was that they also had VW 502 and VW505 approved 0W40 with Titanium in 0w40 weight as well... That came as a shocker as I remember absence of VW approved oils up until recently.

That perked my interest so I went back home and did some searching on oils... which returned quite hair rising results regarding Rotella T6 oil... Couple of hours of reading material here:

MOTOR OIL “WEAR PROTECTION” RANKING LIST | 540RAT - Tech Facts, NOT Myths

Bottom line is he measured a lot of common oils at 230F and dynamic load until the metal surfaces meet. Result is a ranking list of oils arranged by decreasing number of PSIs it took to cause scarring on metal surfaces. Essentially it measures force needed to break the oil film and cause wear on engine.

Highest measured common oil was 5W30 Mobil 1 synthetic at 105,875 psi (position number 10, there are better oils or combos but hard or expensive to get). Rotella T6 ranked #114, 5W40 SHELL ROTELLA T6 Diesel Oil synthetic at 67,804 psi...

Interestingly enough, Castrol Syntec 0w30 aka "German Castrol" we all love tested similarly at 69,302 psi, Mobil 1 0w40 Synthetic Euro at 82,644 - to give you reference point.

Bottom line is Rotella has inferior protection against wear but so does GC... maybe it was top notch a while ago but new formulations far exceed them today.

I couldn't find the Castrol Edge 0w40 with titanium in the list (it is made in Germany BTW, they list older formulation of 0w40 without Titanium and that one was made in Belgium), but couple other variants tested far above Rotella, so I dumped Rotella for Edge last night.


Discuss...

[Spike00513]

[AudiSportB5S4]

This is a good topic for Bob is the Oil Guy forums.. :)

[Dr.d]

Haven't read the material, but that is just one test, right? What about all the previous testing from bob is the oil guy that takes into account the condition of t6 and other oils at x amount of miles? I'm assuming we don't see load that high in normal engines or people wouldn't have been able to drive around on this stuff for years.

[Jmills]

Now this was just a one time test for "failure" pressure to create contact between the metal surfaces right? I always send my oil out for analysis and TDC from Blackstone and Rotella has always returned favorable results.

[Jmills]

Haven't read the material, but that is just one test, right? What about all the previous testing from bob is the oil guy that takes into account the condition of t6 and other oils at x amount of miles? I'm assuming we don't see load that high in normal engines or people wouldn't have been able to drive around on this stuff for years.

^x2, I would like to see this test run for many hours at an acceptable % from the "limit" to see what the results would be.

You can make some damn good oils but if the additives degrade quickly then it's only a great oil for a shorter amount of time.

[Thumper3]

What was pretty surprising was that they also had VW 502 and VW505 approved 0W40 with Titanium in 0w40 weight as well... That came as a shocker as I remember absence of VW approved oils up until recently.

Been buying VW 502/504/505 oil for over 5 years now.........Pep Boys sells the Mobile 1 flavors in the proper certs, I know the dealer has always sold the Castrol Edge.

These aren't Corrolla's, LOL, the price of the oil they need is commensurate to the cost of the car.

[Monty23]

You guys need to take the time to read the site instead of making blind assumptions about the testing. I skimmed some of it and I plan to read it in detail in the near future. Good stuff and thanks for sharing julex.

And to clarify, the testing performed only gives results as to what oils have the best wear protection, which should not be the only attribute someone needs out of an oil that will be used in a daily driven vehicle.

[Jmills]

Also some more interesting information on oil usage. It's on a different motor (4G63 from the Evos) but it's still informative regarding thrust bearing damage.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...otor%20Oil.pdf

[julex]

Better yet, look at flash points, the temperature at which oil breaks down. Rotella T6 lists at "only" 260F which is easily attainable on main bearings, while Mobil 1 0w40 is at 285 and GC is at 290. I guess this is also the secret of these oil - their resilience to break down due to overheating at bearing surfaces.

With widesparead availability of Mobil 1 0w40 (wally at something around $25) and this new option of Castrol Edge 0w40 European Formula (wally at $21.88 for 5L jug!) and their superiority, there is really no point to rotella especially if you have stage 3 (or higher) car.

[Jmills]

You guys need to take the time to read the site instead of making blind assumptions about the testing. I skimmed some of it and I plan to read it in detail in the near future. Good stuff and thanks for sharing julex.

And to clarify, the testing performed only gives results as to what oils have the best wear protection, which should not be the only attribute someone needs out of an oil that will be used in a daily driven vehicle.

[julex]

Also some more interesting information on oil usage. It's on a different motor (4G63 from the Evos) but it's still informative regarding thrust bearing damage.

http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...otor%20Oil.pdf

ZDDP is old news and beyond certain level it is actually counter productive as it displaces other wear protection additives causing actually accelerated wear on metal surfaces, I forget what the concentration need for it is, but somewhere beyond 1500ppm is definitely getting there. It also needs high pressure and temperatures to activate which requires well warmed up engine to start working. Other additives work when cold, like moly lube, titanium, calcium, etc.

[Jmills]

ZDDP is old news and beyond certain level it is actually counter productive as it displaces other wear protection additives causing actually accelerated wear on metal surfaces, I forget what the concentration need for it is, but somewhere beyond 1500ppm is definitely getting there. It also needs high pressure and temperatures to activate which requires well warmed up engine to start working. Other additives work when cold, like moly lube, titanium, calcium, etc.

Agree completely, ZDDP was developed in the 1940s so there definitely are better additives today. I wonder if these higher levels and improper warm up resulted in the higher failure rate of K03s through the years.

[Racin2redline]

My general observation with rotella T6 is my car ran hot (oil temp) during warmer weather and started making some funky noises when it started getting colder. Rotella is hyped up doody IMO. I don't need fancy tests to tell me that lol

Switched to liqui moly 0w40 all weird cold start noises stopped and oil temp stays about 1/4 way on the gauge for the most part

[S4James]

I outright wore my piston rings right out after a few seasons on rotella....

[spd579]

I haven't read through this article completely but it looks like mostly lighter weight oils(I run 5w40 T6 currently) have the "better protection" according to this article. I wouldn't recommend anyone run less than a 40 weight oil in a turbo car from everything I know before this article. Am I missing something?

[Audimilo]

just further shows that Mobil 1 5w30 is and has been the way to go. My blackstone reports and 257,000 mile Avant both support this.

[Jmills]

I haven't read through this article completely but it looks like mostly lighter weight oils(I run 5w40 T6 currently) have the "better protection" according to this article. I wouldn't recommend anyone run less than a 40 weight oil in a turbo car from everything I know before this article. Am I missing something?

The testing performed was to determine the film strength of oils at a maximum pressure. This was done at a standard operating pressure and doesn't account for longevity of the oils really, just their maximum failure pressure. It's definitely a great read.

[julex]

I haven't read through this article completely but it looks like mostly lighter weight oils(I run 5w40 T6 currently) have the "better protection" according to this article. I wouldn't recommend anyone run less than a 40 weight oil in a turbo car from everything I know before this article. Am I missing something?

Our engine is about 20y old design and it is stuck on that era oils as far as standards go... since then the oil technology moved quite a bit. 20y old formulation relies on high viscosity of oil for start up protection and ZDDP when warmed up to protect vital parts.

These days a much thinner oil can accomplish the same and better protection from a get go when cold. Even wondered how most of today's new engine design use oil like 0w20 without any issues... and that's on much closer tolerances? That's because modern lighter oil actually provides comparable (or even better, as witnessed in the article) protection characteristics with additives that are absent in old formulations.

[julex]

just further shows that Mobil 1 5w30 is and has been the way to go. My blackstone reports and 257,000 mile Avant both support this.

Yes, it is looks like #1 choice for oil readily available at local stores. I would expect good longevity out of it as well.

[Dr.d]

Lol my thoughts exactly.

It is just one test after all. If t6 wasn't capable of lubricating the engine at loads it ACTUALLY a sees the cars wouldnt be able to run on the stuff for years. I ran t6 for the last 10k before tearing down my motor at 147k and everything was in great shape.

Not saying t6 is the best oil in the world but I am saying that in the wear test julex explained most motors probably don't see loads anywhere near the failure points of the oils.

[spd579]

Anyone want to buy my Rotella?

[Timtheguru]

Better yet, look at flash points, the temperature at which oil breaks down. Rotella T6 lists at "only" 260F which is easily attainable on main bearings, while Mobil 1 0w40 is at 285 and GC is at 290. I guess this is also the secret of these oil - their resilience to break down due to overheating at bearing surfaces.

With widesparead availability of Mobil 1 0w40 (wally at something around $25) and this new option of Castrol Edge 0w40 European Formula (wally at $21.88 for 5L jug!) and their superiority, there is really no point to rotella especially if you have stage 3 (or higher) car.

Flashpoint is 225*C which equates to 437*F... Am I missing something?

[julex]

Flashpoint is 225*C which equates to 437*F... Am I missing something?

My mistake, I used term flash point mistakenly. NOACK Volatility Test is the proper term, read about it. Although what author did is a variation on this test, namely he started heating up the oils until they started vaporizing which is where onset of thermal breakdown is.

[Racin2redline]

Anyone want to buy my Rotella?

Why? Just return it lol. Beauty of walmart lol

[Jmills]

My mistake, I used term flash point mistakenly. NOACK Volatility Test is the proper term, read about it. Although what author did is a variation on this test, namely he started heating up the oils until they started vaporizing which is where onset of thermal breakdown is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOACK_Volatility_Test

Link for the lazy.

[BITRBO]

Excellent find OP. I have been running the "German Blend" Castrol for a while now because it had very high mark on BtoG's site, so I may need to re-evaluate that. However, the information on viscosity and heat transfer (i.e. cooling) confirms what I've already know, and I encourage everyone to read this article if they haven't already (particularly the end).

I haven't read through this article completely but it looks like mostly lighter weight oils(I run 5w40 T6 currently) have the "better protection" according to this article. I wouldn't recommend anyone run less than a 40 weight oil in a turbo car from everything I know before this article. Am I missing something?

IDK about that. Thick oils and lots of pressure is old thinking... Thicker oils don't necessarily "protect" any better than thinner oils, and actually flow less and extract/dissipate heat slower due to their increased viscosity. It's generally better to run a thinner oil along with some type of additive if additional protection is needed. There is also aeration to contend with using thicker oils, which is less of a problem with thinner oils. FLOW and cooling efficiency are almost as important as lubricity, since the oil can't lube what it can't reach, and of course, heat is a precursor to wear... People often forget that engine oil actually performs more of a cooling function than the rad system, so why would you want something thick and slow in charge of reaching all the internals?

[BITRBO]

Our engine is about 20y old design and it is stuck on that era oils as far as standards go... since then the oil technology moved quite a bit. 20y old formulation relies on high viscosity of oil for start up protection and ZDDP when warmed up to protect vital parts.

These days a much thinner oil can accomplish the same and better protection from a get go when cold. Even wondered how most of today's new engine design use oil like 0w20 without any issues... and that's on much closer tolerances? That's because modern lighter oil actually provides comparable (or even better, as witnessed in the article) protection characteristics with additives that are absent in old formulations.

Yup. GM has been rolling Z06's off the line with 0WXX oils for almost a decade now... Same goes for most European exotics too.

[BITRBO]

Oh, and another piece of information that I found interesting, is diesel oils generally have a much lower thermal breakdown limit than gasoline oils, which makes sense since these engines typically run much slower and cooler than gasoline engines do:

"The average value for the onset of thermal breakdown for all 15 Diesel oils combined = 261* F, which is 15* “LOWER” than the average of all 25 gasoline engine oils combined. That makes Diesel oils a poor choice for high performance gasoline engines, in terms of thermal breakdown capability."

I typically hit 270-275* at the track during at 20 min session, which would've been murder for my engine had I ran a diesel formula...

[Jmills]

Oh, and another piece of information that I found interesting, is diesel oils generally have a much lower thermal breakdown limit than gasoline oils, which makes sense since these engines typically run much slower and cooler than gasoline engines do:

I typically hit 270-275* at the track during at 20 min session, which would've been murder for my engine had I ran a diesel formula...

Yeah the thermal breakdown limits are as interesting in this as the oil film strength tests are.

I think this post should be stickied.

[S4James]

Think the 0w20 Mobil 1 would work for us??

[julex]

Think the 0w20 Mobil 1 would work for us??

Keep in mind that our oil pump design might not work well with super thin oils. So long the oil pump can generate proper oil pressure, probably yes. There are a bunch of VW approved 0w30 oils on this most current list already so you're free to use 0w30 weights without many issues:

http://microsites.audiusa.com/ngw/09..._1997-2012.pdf

[BITRBO]

Yeah the thermal breakdown limits are as interesting in this as the oil film strength tests are.

I think this post should be stickied.

Agreed

Think the 0w20 Mobil 1 would work for us??

Actually, the 5W30 ranked quite a bit higher, and in the "Incredible" category for wear protection... However, it doesn't have that high of a thermal threshold (265* F) so I would prolly only use it on the street. For track I'm actually liking the wear protection and thermal capacity of the 10W30 Amsoil Dominator and 5W30 Joe Gibbs Driven... Just gotta do a bit more research on compatibility and VW requirements.

[BITRBO]

Keep in mind that our oil pump design might not work well with super thin oils. So long the oil pump can generate proper oil pressure, probably yes. There are a bunch of VW approved 0w30 oils on this most current list already so you're free to use 0w30 weights without many issues:

http://microsites.audiusa.com/ngw/09..._1997-2012.pdf

Thanks! I was looking for this...

We're 504 / 507 specific, no?

[julex]

Thanks! I was looking for this...

We're 504 / 507 specific, no?

502 or 504, depending on your change schedule. If 10k miles then 502, 504 is some variable service type which I am not familiar with but most audi approved oils are 504 if they already are 502.

[BITRBO]

502 or 504, depending on your change schedule. If 10k miles then 502, 504 is some variable service type which I am not familiar with but most audi approved oils are 504 if they already are 502.

Yeah, you're right... WTF? ECS has 504/507 listed for our cars

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_S4-...S223/ES261369/

[julex]

Yeah, you're right... WTF? ECS has 504/507 listed for our cars

http://www.ecstuning.com/Audi-B5_S4-...S223/ES261369/

That oil will work just fine... It is 504 after all but...

This is low SAPS oil which is a bad fit for 2.7t with flat tappet cams. Sulphurous-phosphorous is essential in protecting old tech cams we have. Maybe they have some really good anti wear package that mitigates these issues but I would not trust ECS' interpretation of "Motul specific 504/507" label on the oil. I think they are majorly extrapolating here thinking "Since it is a higher number then it supersedes previous numbers".

There are other "Motul Specific oils": http://www.ecstuning.com/Search/Site...ific/ES261372/

[BITRBO]

That oil will work just fine. It is 504 after all

Oh, right you did say that... Never mind

[slow ride]

You guys do any research on this test? Look into it some and draw your own conclusions.

[Timtheguru]

You guys do any research on this test? Look into it some and draw your own conclusions.

Like this? http://www.corvetteforum.com/forums/...d-540-rat.html

"Agreed. I wasted an hour of my time reading through OP's tests, which are largely pointless for most stock C3 cars. When I first saw them, I thought, "Wow, this is great stuff!" but then I rather quickly realized that the naysayers were right. It's simple physics. The test may be fine for roller motors, assuming that a roller motor never exceeds oil shear strength, although I've seen no discussion of that. It seems elementary to me that when you've got 200,000psi in a flat tappet motor and the oil film shears at 75,000psi, or 105,000 for among the best, testing shear strength alone doesn't tell you much that matters in that motor. The oil is not protecting the cam, and the cam would disintegrate if what you were testing was really all that important. Somehow, some way, that oil is protecting the motor through a mechanism you don't test.

I'm sure your tests are perfectly wonderful for something, but in a flat tappet cam world, I candidly don't understand what, really. There seems to be ample evidence that ZDDP essentially creates a sacrificial layer which prevents the cam from being prematurely destroyed. I saw lots and lots of talk that "it doesn't matter how much ZDDP you have, just that there is some in there" but zero analysis or testing by you to demonstrate where that threshold is. That makes about as much sense as saying "it doesn't matter how much grease is in the bearing, just that's there's some in there." It isn't a perfect analog, but it isn't that far off: If you have an industrial bearing that calls for 4 pumps of grease a day, and put one pump in, the bearing is going to die a premature death.

I appreciate the testing, but I don't appreciate all of the self-congratulation and horn-blowing which could easily lead astray those who aren't analytically inclined enough to see through the malarkey. I suspect you are well aware of the short-coming, but have gone so far down the road of claiming that your tests are the sine que non of oil intelligence that you see no way back to backtrack now..."