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  1. #1
    Registered User Four Rings Doug@FrankenTurbo's Avatar
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    FrankenTurbo F23L airflows and compressor map

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    In the last few weeks we've had great experience working with a number of B7 owners running our F23L, and I would like to share a bit of the data we're getting back. I'm mindful that a lot of these facts and figures can seem like a lot of work to understand, so I've worked to keep things brief.

    As I've said in the past, the F23L is a 280 gram/second turbo. And to give a little perspective on what that means, this independent website is really useful: http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/

    At this link you will find an excellent "Turbo Calculator" for any engine configuration you could imagine. And here is a helpful link to this page with most of the basic parameters already filled in:

    http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/...=1&map_sel0=32

    350bhp on a 2 liter displacement. Sounds like fun, eh? But the interesting part comes when you take advantage of this calculator's ability to chart the airflows you want on a number of pre-loaded compressor maps. For example is the Garrett GT2860RS. That's the famous Disco Potato! Here are some screen shots to illustrate the statistics you will see with that turbo selected:

    This is the layout of parameters entered in order to create the calculations:





    And here is the resulting chart of how the actual airflows would fit the compressor map.



    As you can see, the calculator's airflows stay safely to the right of the surge line and fall within the map, and the rotational speed to achieve the required boost is just a hair outside the compressor wheel's mapped range. So all in all, looking pretty good Disco!

    Now, to begin relating this information to the F23L, we simply need to make use of some of the information generated by the calculator. It's highlighted in red here:




    The numbers in the bottom two rows display airflows in two measurement values. The top one is in cubic meters per second (volume). The one below is its equivalent in kilograms per second (weight). Let's plug in those kg/sec values against some actual airflows collected by F23L owners in the last couple of weeks (values are shown in grams/second, as output by the cars' OBD ports):





    Again, these two lines are comparing the necessary airflows to achieve 350bhp with the actual, real-world values recorded by our F23L turbo. And it's worth mentioning that the Gt2860RS values reflect specific inputs for estimated boost onset, peak power, air temperatures, etc. So this graph reflects my estimate for a solidly-supported Disco Potato delivering 350bhp on a 2L displacement.

    But there's no need for such guesswork when you have complete data collected in real-world testing. Unlike the airflow paths charted above for the GT2860RS, we have actual F23L airflow information that can be directly overlaid onto our published compressor map. And here is the result:




    By applying actual airflows to the F23 compressor map we have the means to evaluate the F23L compressor's suitability to the demands of a 350bhp output. And, bottom line, the airflows (shown in blue) are within the map for the entire run. This is proof positive that the turbo is functioning as designed. And an important note: this overlay is based upon the exact volume/weight ratios in the SquirrelPerformance calculations: 1.10:1.00. BorgWarner however uses the less-stringent ratio of 1.17:1.00 in its own R&D. For the purposes of this graph, I applied the higher standard of the two.

    This documentation is simply another demonstration of a long-proven fact. The F23-series compressor wheel strikes an excellent balance between low-end responsiveness and top end power. I'm going to close out with a quick video taken from an FSI-engine Mk5, actually exceeding our rated horsepower on a stock motor.



    Thx


  2. #2
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug@FrankenTurbo View Post



    Hey that is one neat compressor map! Could you teach us how you made it? Oh wait I've got you covered!


  3. #3
    Veteran Member Four Rings derrek's Avatar
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    Lol

    IB4L


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  4. #4
    Active Member Four Rings landfill's Avatar
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    hahaha knew that was coming!

  5. #5
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Doug,

    Good info here, and I have zero doubt that the F23L flows enough to make 350chp. In fact, I've seen 340+WHP on the VW FWD platforms with your transverse F23 variant.


    That said, why are you still using that compressor map? It's pretty clear at this point that it's a K04 map. @Doug@Frankenturbo
    -Hayden

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  6. #6
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    Doug,

    Good info here, and I have zero doubt that the F23L flows enough to make 350chp. In fact, I've seen 340+WHP on the VW FWD platforms with your transverse F23 variant.


    That said, why are you still using that compressor map? It's pretty clear at this point that it's a K04 map. @Doug@Frankenturbo

    Because that are his two marketing methods. Fake compressor charts. Mind you he has been using that k04 compressor chart for the b6 as well which is an entirely different turbo.

    His other marketing method is Maf logs from customers. Maf or fueling logs. Fueling logs tell you whoever is tuning it isn't a complete dickehead, has nothing to do with the turbo. Maf logs tell you a non comparable number that is specific to each engine and can only be compared to one self. Yet he uses a gt2860 and a k04 and f23 all with different tunes at different elevations as empirical data when it just isn't, its very blatantly a gross comparison much like enthusiasts do and say well If I throw an intake on it will gain me 20 hp and if I do a catback thats another 30hp, its a very opaque comparison.

  7. #7
    Veteran Member Four Rings LINDW4LL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mec View Post
    Because that are his two marketing methods. Fake compressor charts. Mind you he has been using that k04 compressor chart for the b6 as well which is an entirely different turbo.
    The thing is, he should have just not released any compressor map at all. JHM didn't release a compressor map for their RS6-Rs and no one complains. Neither does Tial, again no complaints. Nor does APR (lthough they are generally OEM turbos so they can be found via Google). Nonetheless, I doubt many of their customers are actually searching for that info.


    Doug has plenty of customers who have demonstrated that the turbo performs well. It's just stupid that he still uses that fake map and ruins his credibility.
    -Hayden

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  8. #8
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LINDW4LL View Post
    The thing is, he should have just not released any compressor map at all. JHM didn't release a compressor map for their RS6-Rs and no one complains. Neither does Tial, again no complaints. Nor does APR (lthough they are generally OEM turbos so they can be found via Google). Nonetheless, I doubt many of their customers are actually searching for that info.


    Doug has plenty of customers who have demonstrated that the turbo performs well. It's just stupid that he still uses that fake map and ruins his credibility.
    Neither does forced performance. The thing is when you don't have a compressor map, you don't put out a photoshopped fake. That makes you a fraud.

    So far in the b7 section we have like 4 active guys who have frankenturbos 2 of them have failed. 50% failure rate.

    meanwhile we have 4 or 5 K04 guys, none have failures. 0% failure rate
    3-4 EFR guys none have failed. 0% failure rate
    10+ garrett guys and none have failed. 0 % failure rate.

    It may look like a Borg warner on the outside, but its got crappy chinese bullshit parts that fail. and thats the bottom line.

  9. #9
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Here's the one thing that I feel people really overlook on frankenturbo.

    If you set all the lies a side and you look at what frankenturbo is, what Doug wants it to be it boils down to this. It is a k03 replacement that gives you a bit more power.
    Well that is a two fold statement.
    1. It is a k03 replacement
    2. Gives you more power.

    Let's look at 1. yes it is a direct fit turbo and it will fit without modification. That is a plus, but what is it that ruins this pro? The fact that its $1500...A BW k03 is $1000, a BW k04 is $1200. This costs $1500. But you think ok thats fine as long as its durable, I don't want to replace it again.
    And cut the bullshit for a second. This is not a Borg warner turbo....it just isnt', its a low chinese quality turbo similar to what you find on ebay, sure it's been balanced (according to doug), and sure you can get ceramic coating. But its going to fail. its just a matter of time, it will not give you the life that a Borg warner or Garrett turbo will. It just won't. So you spent $1500, and you're going to have to spend another $700 for removal and reinstall when you get the turbo warrantied after it blows up, granted that is hoping your turbo blows within the first two years otherwise your FT is out of warranty and you will have to order yet another one! so $3000 now in two turbos and two isntalls for $700 a piece. now you are at $4400 in two years. When you could have just picked up a brand new k03 for $1000 and install for $700 and it will last you much much longer than an FT. Summary here is that, It is overpriced, you are getting a chinese turbo and overpaying for it like crazy. This product has a place in this Audi market, but not at $1500, that is absurd, maybe at $500-700. Just look up what k04 clones cost on ebay, no one prices them at $1500, because thats insane, its more than what the manufacuter charges and the ebay sellers know they are selling a product that will fail quickly.

    Now lets look at 2. An FT will make more power than a k03. Yes this is true. Because what is a turbo? A turbo is simply a device to push air into the engine. Put a bigger wheel on it and it will push more air into the system. Simple as that. More air = more possibility for power. But again, as we've seen with ebay turbos, the same is true for frankenturbos. People who run them low boost can run them for a while, but if you want to make that serious power that FT claims, you have to push the turbo and thats when you start seeing failures because they simply are not engineered with the precision of BW or Garrett. Now then it boils into it will push more air into the engine than a k03, but its been compared to a k04 far too many times, with no real proof of this. Is it more efficient than a k04? I doubt it, its a turbo that wasn't matched properly, compressor wheels are thrown at it in trial and error. So You could buy a k04, do the modifications for it which is simple, its an s3 exhaust flange for $20 and $50 to weld it onto your downpipe, and a $70 Dv delocation kit. So $140 in mods to make the k04 fit plus $1200 = $1340, and this turbo will last you 10x the life of a frankenturbo. Or you can get a $1500 straight fit frankenturbo and plan on replacing it with in the next 2-5 years.

    Your choice, But I'll always take the OEM quality option, even if its cost substantially more, even though in this case, you actually save a ton of money by going OEM k04.

  10. #10
    Veteran Member Four Rings FraggyA4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mec View Post
    Neither does forced performance. The thing is when you don't have a compressor map, you don't put out a photoshopped fake. That makes you a fraud.

    So far in the b7 section we have like 4 active guys who have frankenturbos 2 of them have failed. 50% failure rate.

    meanwhile we have 4 or 5 K04 guys, none have failures. 0% failure rate
    3-4 EFR guys none have failed. 0% failure rate
    10+ garrett guys and none have failed. 0 % failure rate.

    It may look like a Borg warner on the outside, but its got crappy chinese bullshit parts that fail. and thats the bottom line.
    Heyoh! I'm one of the guys that hasn't failed!
    -Chadwick

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  11. #11
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FraggyA4 View Post
    Heyoh! I'm one of the guys that hasn't failed!
    You Lucky Duck! If I were you I'd be buying a lotto ticket lol

  12. #12
    Veteran Member Four Rings A-BlacK_MambA-4's Avatar
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    Nice video Mec That's pretty poor of Frankenturbo to do.
    -JOEL

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  13. #13
    Veteran Member Four Rings vce1232000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mec View Post
    sure it's been balanced (according to doug),
    Martin,

    Sure its balanced. He showed us a picture of his machine. What else you want

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  14. #14
    Registered User Four Rings Doug@FrankenTurbo's Avatar
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    You know, I just realized I'd missed the opportunity to share the airflow information from that Mk5 car's dyno testing. I don't know if you folks noticed the ambient temps, but they were 96˚F. Despite that, here are the airflows as recorded by the MAF sensor:



    And here are those airflows converted to cubic meters/second, per the scaling method used by the SquirrelPerformance calculator:




    Much prettier, I have to say. I'd love to get our F23L test car dialed in this closely, and I'm sure we will.


  15. #15
    Veteran Member Four Rings FraggyA4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mec View Post
    You Lucky Duck! If I were you I'd be buying a lotto ticket lol
    I'm also the only one running a stock tune still so that might be why.
    -Chadwick

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    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FraggyA4 View Post
    I'm also the only one running a stock tune still so that might be why.
    Could be, you're on maestro right?

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    Veteran Member Four Rings FraggyA4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mec View Post
    Could be, you're on maestro right?
    Nope still bone stock. Dumbest thing ever. Fully built motor "Upgraded Turbo" and running a stock tune
    -Chadwick

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  18. #18
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FraggyA4 View Post
    Nope still bone stock. Dumbest thing ever. Fully built motor "Upgraded Turbo" and running a stock tune
    Oh wow, I ran a fully stock tune on my Gtx with built engine once. Man it was silky smooth down low, maestro has always given methis strange idle and strange part throttle. Butt dyno picks them up, but as soon as I stomped the pedal I would go into limp mode with like 30 cel's.

    Lol stock tune doesn't like 30 psi

  19. #19
    Registered User Four Rings Doug@FrankenTurbo's Avatar
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    When assembling an F23-series turbo today, I found myself transfixed by the glorious radiance of its polished billet compressor wheel. I mean, honestly, you have to agree with me.



    Anyway, while I stood in my reverie, it occurred to me that with all the recent data pouring in to show the new "Anti-Surge" wheel performing so well, I really ought to revise our published compressor map. But I ran into a problem with that. While applying the "Liar" filter to the map in Photoshop I got an error about the values exceeding gamut. Looks like my old version of Photoshop needs an upgrade. I'll look into the "Pants on Fire" edition that's purportedly a much better match to my business practices.

  20. #20
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug@FrankenTurbo View Post
    When assembling an F23-series turbo today, I found myself transfixed by the glorious radiance of its polished billet compressor wheel. I mean, honestly, you agree with me.



    Anyway, while I stood in my reverie, it occurred to me that with all the recent data pouring in to show the new "Anti-Surge" wheel performing so well, I really ought to revise our published compressor map. But I ran into a problem with that. While applying the "Liar" filter to the map in Photoshop I got an error about the values exceeding gamut. Looks like my old version of Photoshop needs an upgrade. I'll look into the "Pants on Fire" edition that's purportedly a much better match to my business practices.
    Lololol you know Doug, in all seriousness, at least you aren't arin@apr. That's a sorta compliment, I bet if I didn't care about quality to price of turbos and if you weren't selling turbos we might actually get along.

  21. #21
    Veteran Member Four Rings IKE20VA4's Avatar
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    [eating popcorn emoticon]

    Not sure if serious?!

  22. #22
    Veteran Member Four Rings mec's Avatar
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    Also doesn't look as good as a gtx2867r....oooh hawt damnnnnn!




    and yes I'm serious. Doug has the option of Pm'ing a moderator and saying clear that thread out, but he doesn't, he lets people say what they will and he just keeps on doing his thing.

    On the other hand you have Arin@APR who is being accused now of making smear campaigns and bribing forum members to trash other companies, and wlel all the things that were posted in the barbque thread.

    And look at that thread, its been cleaned up like 3-4 times, Arin always has moderators clear out all the bad things, wouldn't want people to know that is actually a slimy fellow.

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