S3 Quattro question!!

[BlackAudi87]

Does the S3 have the rear biased Quattro setup?

[CaryS3]

No. It's haldex which is front biased and activates rear only when it detects traction loss from the front.


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[BlackAudi87]

wow thats bull crap. Might need to pickup a S4 instead

No. It's haldex which is front biased and activates rear only when it detects traction loss from the front.


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[gamegenie]

Why, Haldex is not bad.

[LINDW4LL]

The latest gen Haldex can send almost 100% of the power to rear under certain conditions, but yes; under normal driving conditions it is very much FWD biased.

No. It's haldex which is front biased and activates rear only when it detects traction loss from the front.

I believe the S3 will have a default split of 90F, 10R. That is what the Mk7 Golf R has. I know the RS was 50/50 under normal conditions.

[gamegenie]

I look at it like this.

The A3/S3 with Haldex Quattro uses 4 wheels when its necessary since its all electronically controlled by the computer system in the car. Thus rewarding the A3/S3 better gas mileage.

The old Torsen Quattro found in the A4/S4 and up is san electronic control by the CPU in the car and thus its 4 wheels is ALWAYS ON, giving the A4/S4 worse gas mileage than it's newer slightly smaller sibling.




Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Qu...rive_system%29

[BlackAudi87]

even in on the B7 a4 it was 70 front 30 rear i don't think its 90 front?

The latest gen Haldex can send almost 100% of the power to rear under certain conditions, but yes; under normal driving conditions it is very much FWD biased.


I believe the S3 will have a default split of 90F, 10R. That is what the Mk7 Golf R has. I know the RS was 50/50 under normal conditions.

[LINDW4LL]

even in on the B7 a4 it was 70 front 30 rear i don't think its 90 front?

The B7 A4 is Torsen (mechanical AWD), not Haldex. It has a default 50/50 torque split.

I just read that the Golf R has a 90/10 split under normal conditions; not sure if it will be the same for the S3. But it doesn't really matter since that completely changes within milliseconds of the system detecting slip. I also believe Haldex automatically sends more torque to the rear on acceleration to avoid tire slip completely.

[CaryS3]

S4 has 40f 60r torque bias. And most people who buy the s4 don't really give a crap about gas mileage...including me.


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[gamegenie]

S4 has 40f 60r torque bias. And most people who buy the s4 don't really give a crap about gas mileage...including me.


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We here like the A3/S3 , and like that our car gets better gas mileage. :)

[LINDW4LL]

We here like the A3/S3 , and like that our car gets better gas mileage. :)

Smiles per gallon > Miles per gallon. Not to say that smiles will not be had in the S3...

[C4L]

The latest gen Haldex can send almost 100% of the power to rear under certain conditions, but yes; under normal driving conditions it is very much FWD biased.


I believe the S3 will have a default split of 90F, 10R. That is what the Mk7 Golf R has. I know the RS was 50/50 under normal conditions.

No. The Haldex system in both the A3 and S3 is 100F, 0R default and can send no more than 50% to the rear under any circumstances. It is what's called an AWD ON DEMAND system. FWD for efficiency until wheel slip (or yaw) is detected and then can vary the torque split up to as much as 50% to the rear.

There are 2+ types of REAL Quattro right now;
- Gen-V / Torsen C - 40F, 60R default and used in most models, including S products. It can vary as much as apps. 80% to either axle.
- Gen-VI / Crown-Gear - 40F, 60R and used in the newest models (RS5 first then A6/A7/A8) It can vary as much as 85% to the rear and 70% to the front.

The R8 has it's own unique system which is 20F, 80R default and can send power all over the place...

The S3 is a VW Golf R with an Audi badge. VW platform/chassis, VW motor, VW AWD, VW trans, etc. A VERY good product no question but not quite an S4 or really any other Audi from an engineering standpoint at least.

[LINDW4LL]

No. The Haldex system in both the A3 and S3 is 100F, 0R default and can send no more than 50% to the rear under any circumstances. It is what's called an AWD ON DEMAND system. FWD for efficiency until wheel slip (or yaw) is detected and then can vary the torque split up to as much as 50% to the rear.

You're incorrect. That was a limitation of previous Haldex systems but is no longer accurate.

[CaryS3]

We here like the A3/S3 , and like that our car gets better gas mileage. :)

That's awesome. I'm happy for you! I like the s3 as well. I might still buy it later on when I become more practical and actually look at how much I'm spending on gas...but my gas is expensed by my company so...yeah.


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[gamegenie]

That's awesome. I'm happy for you! I like the s3 as well. I might still buy it later on when I become more practical and actually look at how much I'm spending on gas...but my gas is expensed by my company so...yeah.


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You're figure it out easy, all you got to do is bolieve.

[BlackAudi87]

Yea this makes no sense. why would audi be dumping shitty quattro systems in newer cars. Rear biased is the future with performance all wheel drive as AMG has figured out from Audi

No. The Haldex system in both the A3 and S3 is 100F, 0R default and can send no more than 50% to the rear under any circumstances. It is what's called an AWD ON DEMAND system. FWD for efficiency until wheel slip (or yaw) is detected and then can vary the torque split up to as much as 50% to the rear.

There are 2+ types of REAL Quattro right now;
- Gen-V / Torsen C - 40F, 60R default and used in most models, including S products. It can vary as much as apps. 80% to either axle.
- Gen-VI / Crown-Gear - 40F, 60R and used in the newest models (RS5 first then A6/A7/A8) It can vary as much as 85% to the rear and 70% to the front.

The R8 has it's own unique system which is 20F, 80R default and can send power all over the place...

The S3 is a VW Golf R with an Audi badge. VW platform/chassis, VW motor, VW AWD, VW trans, etc. A VERY good product no question but not quite an S4 or really any other Audi from an engineering standpoint at least.

[BlackAudi87]

According to Road and Track you are incorrect "First, that the latest faster-acting iteration of the Haldex four-wheel-drive system is a vast improvement, transferring up to 100 percent of torque to the rear exactly when you need it. "
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...kswagen-golf-r

And car and driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

PRESS RELEASE
http://media.vw.com/release/599/

It is actually activating before wheel spin- depending on driving conditions
Seems it can put 100% torque to the rear when needed.


"

No. The Haldex system in both the A3 and S3 is 100F, 0R default and can send no more than 50% to the rear under any circumstances. It is what's called an AWD ON DEMAND system. FWD for efficiency until wheel slip (or yaw) is detected and then can vary the torque split up to as much as 50% to the rear.

There are 2+ types of REAL Quattro right now;
- Gen-V / Torsen C - 40F, 60R default and used in most models, including S products. It can vary as much as apps. 80% to either axle.
- Gen-VI / Crown-Gear - 40F, 60R and used in the newest models (RS5 first then A6/A7/A8) It can vary as much as 85% to the rear and 70% to the front.

The R8 has it's own unique system which is 20F, 80R default and can send power all over the place...

The S3 is a VW Golf R with an Audi badge. VW platform/chassis, VW motor, VW AWD, VW trans, etc. A VERY good product no question but not quite an S4 or really any other Audi from an engineering standpoint at least.

[LINDW4LL]

According to Road and Track you are incorrect "First, that the latest faster-acting iteration of the Haldex four-wheel-drive system is a vast improvement, transferring up to 100 percent of torque to the rear exactly when you need it.

Yep, he doesn't know what he's talking about. I do prefer true Torsen AWD, but the Haldex is fine and has come a long way.

The biggest downside of the S3 versus the S4 is that it lacks torque vectoring (ala Sports Diff in S4).

[BlackAudi87]

I agree. that would make this such a rocket in the canyon.

Yep, he doesn't know what he's talking about. I do prefer true Torsen AWD, but the Haldex is fine and has come a long way.

The biggest downside of the S3 versus the S4 is that it lacks torque vectoring (ala Sports Diff in S4).

[CaryS3]

Man I LOVE the sports diff in my S4. Amazing


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[C4L]

Yep, he doesn't know what he's talking about. I do prefer true Torsen AWD, but the Haldex is fine and has come a long way.

The biggest downside of the S3 versus the S4 is that it lacks torque vectoring (ala Sports Diff in S4).

It appears the S3 and A3 have different tuning for their Haldex systems (can't find it but I will take your word for it). However in either case they are both ON DEMAND systems and NOT full-time AWD.

The THREE biggest downsides to the S3 vs. S4 are;
- Quattro > Haldex
- MLB > MBQ
- 3.0T > 2.0T

Better AWD, better platform, better motor = better car...

[C4L]

Yea this makes no sense. why would audi be dumping shitty quattro systems in newer cars. Rear biased is the future with performance all wheel drive as AMG has figured out from Audi

What are you talking about 'shitty quattro in newer cars'?

All that information is right from Audi actually...

[gamegenie]

It appears the S3 and A3 have different tuning for their Haldex systems (can't find it but I will take your word for it). However in either case they are both ON DEMAND systems and NOT full-time AWD.

The THREE biggest downsides to the S3 vs. S4 are;
- Quattro > Haldex
- MLB > MBQ
- 3.0T > 2.0T

Better AWD, better platform, better motor = better car...

Hopefully you mean Torsen, otherwise that makes no sense since Quattro is either Haldex based or Torsen based, both are QUATTRO.

[Spoonie]

It appears the S3 and A3 have different tuning for their Haldex systems (can't find it but I will take your word for it). However in either case they are both ON DEMAND systems and NOT full-time AWD.

The THREE biggest downsides to the S3 vs. S4 are;
- Quattro > Haldex
- MLB > MBQ
- 3.0T > 2.0T

Better AWD, better platform, better motor = better car...

The S4 also has downsides when compared to the S3. The S4 is heavier and slower than the S3. Also cost $13k more. Not worth it IMO. Also doesn't offer the same dynamics as the S3). No LED headlights, No Magnetic Ride, No Google Earth Nav. All for $13,000+ more than the S3. Not to mention that the current S4's design looks a little old, and the interior looks like the early 2ks. To each his own dude. Picking an S3 isn't a bad choice and does offer things that the S4 doesn't. I could have had either. I picked the newer fresher design, not the old design.

[C4L]

Hopefully you mean Torsen, otherwise that makes no sense since Quattro is either Haldex based or Torsen based, both are QUATTRO.

In both cases they are named after the companies that make them;

Quattro AWD - Produced by Quattro GmbH (a wholly owned subsidiary of Audi) for Audi vehicles.
Haldex AWD - Produced by Haldex Traction Systems for various companies/vehicles (and even aftermarket systems). (Recently bought out by BorgWarner)

TECHNICALLY there is no such thing as a Quattro Haldex AWD system as they are two distinct AWD systems produced by two different companies.

Audi simply applies the 'Quattro' nomenclature to the Haldex systems to avoid confusion (though is honestly more confusing as people think they are one in the same).

And 'Torsen' is a type of limited slip differential. The newest version of Quattro (Gen VI) doesn't use this anymore but rather a proprietary 'Crown Gear' differential. So calling it Torsen is misleading as well.

[C4L]

The S4 also has downsides when compared to the S3. The S4 is heavier and slower than the S3. Also cost $13k more. Not worth it IMO. Also doesn't offer the same dynamics as the S3). No LED headlights, No Magnetic Ride, No Google Earth Nav. All for $13,000+ more than the S3. Not to mention that the current S4's design looks a little old, and the interior looks like the early 2ks. To each his own dude. Picking an S3 isn't a bad choice and does offer things that the S4 doesn't. I could have had either. I picked the newer fresher design, not the old design.

The S4 is heavier but nets comparable performance results.
And the S4 is not slower than the S3. They are nearly identical actually...

The COST IS the only real advantage to the S3 but members here were saying they were paying equal or more on an S3 lease than an S4. And that makes no sense.

[Spoonie]

The S4 is heavier but nets comparable performance results.
And the S4 is not slower than the S3. They are nearly identical actually...

The COST IS the only real advantage to the S3 but members here were saying they were paying equal or more on an S3 lease than an S4. And that makes no sense.

It's more than just cost. I addressed that in the other tread. S3 has features that the S4 doesn't.

[C4L]

It's more than just cost. I addressed that in the other tread. S3 has features that the S4 doesn't.

There are a few other tech features, you are right. So it is really a case of quantity or quality. Though S4 has features than the S3 doesn't too...

[BlackAudi87]

Actually when reading the articles on the new HALDEX its quit an amazing setup. front wheel for fuel efficiency but can distribute 100% to the rear. I think it would be a better quattro then the S4 if it just had the sport diff. It can be rear biased for heavy launching and cornering. I am not so upset with it anymore after reading up on it. Its quit amazing VW/Audi are claiming.

What are you talking about 'shitty quattro in newer cars'?

All that information is right from Audi actually...

[C4L]

Actually when reading the articles on the new HALDEX its quit an amazing setup. front wheel for fuel efficiency but can distribute 100% to the rear. I think it would be a better quattro then the S4 if it just had the sport diff. It can be rear biased for heavy launching and cornering. I am not so upset with it anymore after reading up on it. Its quit amazing VW/Audi are claiming.

It is AWD ON DEMAND. It operates as FWD until the limit when ONLY ON THE S3 can it send as much as 100% to the rear. (A3 is only 50%). This is not better than Quattro which is a true full-time AWD system with a default RWD bias and torque vectoring with a true LSD.

And where are you reading about it's ability to put 100% to the rear wheels. All information from Haldex even says this isn't the case...

The Haldex system is simply a cheaper alternative to Quattro. That is why Audi only uses it in their cheapest cars.

I know it works fine but the way it feels in driving is the difference.

From Motor Trend;

"If there's a key difference between how the S3 drives and how other Audi S models drive, it's right here. The linearity of power delivery found in other Audis allows them to dig hard out of all corners and take off like a rocket every time, without even thinking about it. The S3 requires just a little more forethought to keep the revs up. Likewise, the S3 doesn't rotate on corner exit like the S4 or S7 with their aggressive rear differentials"

And of course in inclimate weather the ON DEMAND nature is a demerit as well as it will only send power to the rear wheels AFTER loss of traction has already occurred.

[BlackAudi87]

NO C4L please take the time to read my posts above or actually research on the internet.. There is a press release above from VW themselves on the GOLF R. It states the New Gen HALDEX in the GOLF R is brand new and is ACTIVE BEFORE SLIP and can put 100% torque to the rear wheels under certain driving condition not just slip. It simply detaches the coupling in the rear to stop power being wasted to the rear when not needed for efficiency. To save you time here are the facts again. just read what the articles state about HALDEX. this is not heresay these are facts end of story


According to Road and Track you are incorrect "First, that the latest faster-acting iteration of the Haldex four-wheel-drive system is a vast improvement, transferring up to 100 percent of torque to the rear exactly when you need it. "
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...kswagen-golf-r

And car and driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

PRESS RELEASE
http://media.vw.com/release/599/


This is straight from the VW press release of the GOLF R:
The Golf R has always used 4MOTION permanent all-wheel drive. Using refinements such as the Haldex 5 coupling, the latest-generation 4MOTION system is activated before any wheelspin occurs, helping eliminate nearly all traction losses. The system achieves this by using an advanced control function based on specific driving conditions. When operating under a relatively low load or when coasting, the front wheels are driven and the rear wheels are decoupled, helping to save fuel. However, the rear wheels can be engaged in fractions of a second whenever necessary via the Haldex coupling, which is activated by an electro-hydraulic oil pump.

There for the rear is active under driving conditions that require it even before slip such as hard launches and different audi drive selects and your driving pattern/road

[ihierbal]

NO C4L please take the time to read my posts above or actually research on the internet.. There is a press release above from VW themselves on the GOLF R. It states the New Gen HALDEX in the GOLF R is brand new and is ACTIVE BEFORE SLIP and can put 100% torque to the rear wheels under certain driving condition not just slip. It simply detaches the coupling in the rear to stop power being wasted to the rear when not needed for efficiency. To save you time here are the facts again. just read what the articles state about HALDEX. this is not heresay these are facts end of story


According to Road and Track you are incorrect "First, that the latest faster-acting iteration of the Haldex four-wheel-drive system is a vast improvement, transferring up to 100 percent of torque to the rear exactly when you need it. "
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...kswagen-golf-r

And car and driver
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

PRESS RELEASE
http://media.vw.com/release/599/


This is straight from the VW press release of the GOLF R:
The Golf R has always used 4MOTION permanent all-wheel drive. Using refinements such as the Haldex 5 coupling, the latest-generation 4MOTION system is activated before any wheelspin occurs, helping eliminate nearly all traction losses. The system achieves this by using an advanced control function based on specific driving conditions. When operating under a relatively low load or when coasting, the front wheels are driven and the rear wheels are decoupled, helping to save fuel. However, the rear wheels can be engaged in fractions of a second whenever necessary via the Haldex coupling, which is activated by an electro-hydraulic oil pump.

There for the rear is active under driving conditions that require it even before slip such as hard launches and different audi drive selects and your driving pattern/road

A lot of great info on here. Thanks for the good reads.

[VW2Audi25]

Torqeconversion, thanks for the great read. Are the A3 and S3 using the same Haldex systems, or is the A3 quattro different from the S3?

[LINDW4LL]

Torqeconversion, thanks for the great read. Are the A3 and S3 using the same Haldex systems, or is the A3 quattro different from the S3?

They are both using Haldex Gen V. It is a electronically controlled system, so they may have different biases under normal conditions, but I'd guess they're the same.

[Das Ponto]

Wow this was entertaining to read.

I love people who birch that haldex isn't quattro, when in all reality torsen wasn't the original quattro either. So really saying torsen is the 'real' quattro isn't true since its not the original one.

Volkswagen Group has been developing four-wheel drive (4WD) systems almost since its inception during the Second World War. The Volkswagen Kübelwagen, Volkswagen Schwimmwagen and Volkswagen Kommandeurwagen were all military vehicles which required all four road wheels to be "driven", the latter being a 4WD Volkswagen Beetle. Their military, and four wheel drive experiences later aided them in designing the Volkswagen Iltis for the German military (Bundeswehr) in the 1970s. The Iltis utilized an early form of 4WD, which would later become synonymous with "quattro".[2]

Locking centre differential
In that original quattro system, later found in road-going passenger cars, the engine and transmission are situated in a longitudinal position. Torque is sent through the transmission to a mechanical centre differential[3] (commonly abbreviated to "diff") which apportions (distributes) the torque between front and rear driven axles. 4WD was permanently active.

So suck on that all the elitist quattro hacks trying to act like they know everything... Systems change, systems improve. Get your head out of your asses. The S3 and S4 are both fantastic cars with merits to each. And just because they are being smart and sharing platforms with VW doesn't make it a bad thing either.

[RudyH]

edit: *sigh anyway* quattro is a 'marketing name' for Audi's 4WD system, Quattro is the legendary rally car / production car. 4-Motion is VW's 'marketing name' for their 4WD system.

The reason Haldex is used on transverse Audi's and VW's (4-Motion), Torsen is used on longitudinal Audi's (VW Phaeton under the 4-Motion)

When you drive a Torsen based system vs Torsen + Sports Diff, it is very noticeable. Especially if you have ever driven a RWD car you will be grinning from ear to ear. I never really pushed a Haldex vs Torsen to the limits, but being able to turn off the rear sports diff and on, there is a noticeable difference and is the reason you buy a S4 over a S3 from a performance stand point

That said, all higher performance system in the S4 isn't really needed and it's one of those things personally I could give up and get into a S3 because I have been commuting a lot this year and would like the fuel savings to be perfectly honest...

Then there's this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_GmbH

The creators who created the legendary Audi Quattro utilizing the quattro system used in today's Audi's (essentially Gen I Torsen)

[Das Ponto]

edit: *sigh anyway* quattro is a 'marketing name' for Audi's 4WD system, Quattro is the legendary rally car / production car. 4-Motion is VW's 'marketing name' for their 4WD system.

The reason Haldex is used on transverse Audi's and VW's (4-Motion), Torsen is used on longitudinal Audi's (VW Phaeton under the 4-Motion)

When you drive a Torsen based system vs Torsen + Sports Diff, it is very noticeable. Especially if you have ever driven a RWD car you will be grinning from ear to ear. I never really pushed a Haldex vs Torsen to the limits, but being able to turn off the rear sports diff and on, there is a noticeable difference and is the reason you buy a S4 over a S3 from a performance stand point

That said, all higher performance system in the S4 isn't really needed and it's one of those things personally I could give up and get into a S3 because I have been commuting a lot this year and would like the fuel savings to be perfectly honest...

Then there's this...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quattro_GmbH

The creators who created the legendary Audi Quattro utilizing the quattro system used in today's Audi's (essentially Gen I Torsen)

Don't forget though the fact that you can tune the haldex system... get the race controler and it acts much more like a torsen system at a much more even bias. With that then the performance standpoint can probably be minimized.

[LINDW4LL]

I think most of us can agree that while Torsen is the preferred AWD system, the S3s Haldex Gen V is still very good and fine for most people.

[BlackAudi87]

Was reading a little closer and noticed this...This is in the Golf r and Assume is in the S3.. Isn't this similar to what the sport diff does.


http://media.vw.com/release/750/
In addition, the Golf R is equipped with the XDS® cross differential lock at the front and rear. The latest version, known as XDS+, applies this functionality to a larger range of dynamic performance, helping make the vehicle more agile. When the car is being driven at highway speeds, brake pressure is applied to the inside wheel to help restore optimal traction as soon as the electronics detect excessively light loads. XDS+ thereby operates like a limited-slip differential and thus compensates for understeer during faster cornering.