aftermarket tunes, what timing a/f are you seeing

[saxon]

i figured since more and more people are joining these forums and there are a couple different tunes out there we should try and have a public post to show what we all see for actual timing while logging via vcds

epl stage 2
roc euro intake
apr exhaust
93 octane
18* timing just before redline with no knock/timing pull
.80 lambda on average


epl stage 2
roc euro intake
awe exhaust
93 oct 50/50 meth injection tune
21* timing just before redline, no knock or timing pull
.80 lambda on average


if you feel anything else should be included please do so , with hardware being equal between cars timing and air fuel should give a good indicator or what tunes make the most power and how aggressive they are.

[audistealth]

Well, this forum loves DA and ambient temperature...

[saxon]

Well, this forum loves DA and ambient temperature...

that isnt something that can be logged, we could put iats, but at that point might as well put the full log up

[audistealth]

that isnt something that can be logged, we could put iats, but at that point might as well put the full log up

DA, there are apps for that. Temperature should be a widget on a remotely modern phone. Or, read it out of the display between the gauges.

[SwankPeRFection]

Well, this forum loves DA and ambient temperature...

That's a little bit funny because you need current ambient temp to calculate DA, so posting both is really pointless. If people are interested in DA, that's all you need to post and yes, there are free apps for that. I love the one I posted the other day. Press one button and presto. GPS lookup and everything.

[skiracerblah]

Here's AFR taken at the tailpipe from the Dynapak dyno. 13.5 at WOT pretty lean compared to regular fuel injection courtesy of direct fuel injection... Note, this is bone stock...

[chaos2984]

Here's AFR taken at the tailpipe from the Dynapak dyno. 13.5 at WOT pretty lean compared to regular fuel injection courtesy of direct fuel injection... Note, this is bone stock...

Thats not pretty lean. Thats just a little on the lean side. 14.7:1 is considered perfect a/f ratio for what everyone looks to achieve. So 13.5:1 isn't that bad. Nothing to worry about.

But if he's running at WOT on that tune with the 02 reading .80 thats a little on the rich side and no issues. I would see if he's still running that when maxing out the rpm in whatever gear he's in at the time and if its still the same at high rpm.

[Vogz]

Thats not pretty lean. Thats just a little on the lean side. 14.7:1 is considered perfect a/f ratio for what everyone looks to achieve. So 13.5:1 isn't that bad. Nothing to worry about.

14.7:1 isn't "considered" a perfect gasoline air/fuel ratio. Being stoichiometric, it IS a perfect AFR only from a scientific standpoint. It's not an AFR that ANYONE targets when tuning a forced induction vehicle at WOT. Some factory FI engines run AFRs in the 13s at WOT, but none run anywhere near stoich. Aftermarket tuning typically runs richer for an added margin of detonation protection at higher dynamic compression ratios.

I don't think skiracer was worried about his stock AFR. He was simply explaining the reason it is leaner than one would normally see on an FI vehicle is due to direct injection.

[mr shickadance]

14.7:1 isn't "considered" a perfect gasoline air/fuel ratio. Being stoichiometric, it IS a perfect AFR only from a scientific standpoint. It's not an AFR that ANYONE targets when tuning a forced induction vehicle at WOT. Some factory FI engines run AFRs in the 13s at WOT, but none run anywhere near stoich. Aftermarket tuning typically runs richer for an added margin of detonation protection at higher dynamic compression ratios.

I don't think skiracer was worried about his stock AFR. He was simply explaining the reason it is leaner than one would normally see on an FI vehicle is due to direct injection.

This is the first I am hearing of this, do you have a source to back this up? I thought most aftermarket tunes run a bit leaner.

[mr shickadance]

Hence why you see a bit better gas mileage after a tune

[Vogz]

This is the first I am hearing of this, do you have a source to back this up? I thought most aftermarket tunes run a bit leaner.

I'm not talking about box tunes for the B8 S4 specifically. I'm talking about aftermarket tuning in general on forced induction vehicles. You increase dynamic compression and you richen the WOT AFR for detonation protection. It's a rule that people that tune cars follow. I followed it tuning my 350Z. There's info all over the tuning section of car forums.

Also:
http://aeromotiveinc.com/advanced-ti...fuel-pressure/

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=1595

Hence why you see a bit better gas mileage after a tune

I've seen zero increase in steady state mileage since I had GIACs software installed FWIW. But that has zero to do with the AFR at WOT. At cruise the ECU is in closed loop mode using the O2 sensors to fine tune AFRs. At WOT the ECU reverts to the fueling map and small corrections are made based on temperature sensors, knock sensors, etc.

[chaos2984]

14.7:1 isn't "considered" a perfect gasoline air/fuel ratio. Being stoichiometric, it IS a perfect AFR only from a scientific standpoint. It's not an AFR that ANYONE targets when tuning a forced induction vehicle at WOT. Some factory FI engines run AFRs in the 13s at WOT, but none run anywhere near stoich. Aftermarket tuning typically runs richer for an added margin of detonation protection at higher dynamic compression ratios.

I don't think skiracer was worried about his stock AFR. He was simply explaining the reason it is leaner than one would normally see on an FI vehicle is due to direct injection.

ok buddy thats y manifacturers teach taht in their classes that 14.7:1 is what they try to run under normal conditions unless the car had fuel savings capabilities on the hwy or whatnot. But during normal drivng the ecm fuel map is trying to achieve a 14.7:1 ratio.

[Vogz]

ok buddy thats y manifacturers teach taht in their classes that 14.7:1 is what they try to run under normal conditions unless the car had fuel savings capabilities on the hwy or whatnot. But during normal drivng the ecm fuel map is trying to achieve a 14.7:1 ratio.

What does closed loop "cruising" AFR have to do with WOT AFR? I'll give you a hint, nothing! This thread is about WOT AFRs, not "cruise set at 55" AFR.

[skiracerblah]

Here's a tune i had on my Evo in 2007 of bone stock vs. tuned (aftermarket injectors, fuel pump, exhaust, boost controller, 100 octane unleaded)

If you see the stock AFR, it runs stupid rich hitting the 10's and Evo's are famous for running uber rich at the factory. You'll notice the tuned AFR is slightly higher across the board, especially with the 100 octane where you can get a little more aggressive with AFR's. This is why an Evo responds so positively with tuning. Ya its an Evo, but same principal applies to other cars... IF any car runs 14.7:1 at WOT, your engine will BLOW guaranteed.........

[K1aus]

Here's AFR taken at the tailpipe from the Dynapak dyno. 13.5 at WOT pretty lean compared to regular fuel injection courtesy of direct fuel injection... Note, this is bone stock...

If your car still has it's cats A/F will be leaner at the tailpipe, best to get your wideband reading before the cats.

[JBurer]

This is the first I am hearing of this, do you have a source to back this up? I thought most aftermarket tunes run a bit leaner.

Scott, direct injection changes the game a bit... but Vogz is generally correct.
Most forced induction non-DI cars' afr are in the 11's at WOT. NA is typically 12's.

Direct injection allows one a much leaner mixture, but it's still generally in the 12's/13's at wide open. I believe that's where Cobb had my old twin turbo BMW running.

[chaos2984]

What does closed loop "cruising" AFR have to do with WOT AFR? I'll give you a hint, nothing! This thread is about WOT AFRs, not "cruise set at 55" AFR.

Yea your right it has nothing to do with closed loop but guy was saying he was running really lean and i was just stating he wasnt is all. But yes the ecm has to spray more fuel and sooner before TDC because of engine speed and ignition timing at WOT as it aproaches rev limit.

[saxon]

ok buddy thats y manifacturers teach taht in their classes that 14.7:1 is what they try to run under normal conditions unless the car had fuel savings capabilities on the hwy or whatnot. But during normal drivng the ecm fuel map is trying to achieve a 14.7:1 ratio.

really.... if the car ran 14.7 at wot it would detonate/blow up

14.7:1 is stoich, which is really only ideal for emissions

13.5:1 stock is actually pretty lean for wot, but can be achieved due to the efficiency of Direct injection

most tuners still believe that 12:1 is an ideal a/f ratio for forced induction

does anyone log these cars on this forum or just think their cars are perfect and make the hp shown on tuners websites?

[SwankPeRFection]

Thats not pretty lean. Thats just a little on the lean side. 14.7:1 is considered perfect a/f ratio for what everyone looks to achieve. So 13.5:1 isn't that bad. Nothing to worry about.

But if he's running at WOT on that tune with the 02 reading .80 thats a little on the rich side and no issues. I would see if he's still running that when maxing out the rpm in whatever gear he's in at the time and if its still the same at high rpm.

14.7:1 is NOT what you want to achieve at WOT under full load. Not even close. It needs to be richer than that. Traditionally 12:1 was considered about as lean as you'd want to go for forced induction engines and even that was pushing it in some instances. DI has supposedly changed that a bit.

[SwankPeRFection]

ok buddy thats y manifacturers teach taht in their classes that 14.7:1 is what they try to run under normal conditions unless the car had fuel savings capabilities on the hwy or whatnot. But during normal drivng the ecm fuel map is trying to achieve a 14.7:1 ratio.

Ya, in closed loop, not open loop.

[chaos2984]

14.7:1 is NOT what you want to achieve at WOT under full load. Not even close. It needs to be richer than that. Traditionally 12:1 was considered about as lean as you'd want to go for forced induction engines and even that was pushing it in some instances. DI has supposedly changed that a bit.

I never said that 14.7:1 was what you wanted at WOT. I just stated thats what was considered perfect under ideal conditions. But with that 13.5 he got be probably really running around 12.9 with DI apposed to MPFI I over looked that he was under WOT. But yea you want on the rich side because what i stated above

[saxon]

Since I can't post on that forum I'll reply here. Nice to see people have nothing better to do but talk about me :)

Yes 14.7:1 will absolutely blow your motor at wot. .. Maybe you should research .... :)

Yes I'm still stoke about flash from home, what other tune out there cab you flash between a standard stage 2 file and a custom meth tune? have you ran faster than 12.7 yet with a superior tune than what I have?

According to ar my tune is junk yet I've ran faster than most with the apr/giac tunes (and they conpliment you saying you should be able to reach 12.3 in good weather)

Epl may not have the fastest car out there but in my limited number of runs it seems to be faster than most, we will see what it does in low da this fall

[audistealth]

Where is that product release, or is it not done? Nothing wrong with holding back for QC, but it did seem like it was close to ready at one point...

[Jabroni1485]

@Saxon they know everything............

[saxon]

Where is that product release, or is it not done? Nothing wrong with holding back for QC, but it did seem like it was close to ready at one point...

Not to change subjects, but currently you can do flash from home. Tony is working on a solution to allow port flash from home. The hard part is security so others don't steal his flash/way of flashing. This is the reason that apr/giac have there networks. Unfortunately dealers aren't always reliable and it's inconvenient to the customer.

If you want a remote/meth/e85 tune it can all be done but you just need to have the first flash done by Tony which I believe he port flashes using his car and doesn't even bench flash at all

If your looking for cheap, it's not cheap. Pulley can be bought anywhere but the flashing cable is $300 and custom tunes are $500

[audistealth]

Not to change subjects, but currently you can do flash from home. Tony is working on a solution to allow port flash from home. The hard part is security so others don't steal his flash/way of flashing. This is the reason that apr/giac have there networks. Unfortunately dealers aren't always reliable and it's inconvenient to the customer.

If you want a remote/meth/e85 tune it can all be done but you just need to have the first flash done by Tony which I believe he port flashes using his car and doesn't even bench flash at all

If your looking for cheap, it's not cheap. Pulley can be bought anywhere but the flashing cable is $300 and custom tunes are $500

I'll keep my reply to myself, to keep from further derailment. Maybe Tony could have his own thread for his own voice here?

[saxon]

I'll keep my reply to myself, to keep from further derailment. Maybe Tony could have his own thread for his own voice here?

That would be great, last I talked to him he was to busy tuning alpha porsches and heffner twin turbo r8's that the forums aren't a priority