The need for tunes to "adapt"...explain please

[chanceparker]

I just had a GIAC tune put on my 2012 6-speed. When I picked it up, the installer said it would take a couple of drive cycles for the tune to fully adapt. I have also read similar accounts on the web.

What exactly does that mean? If the tune has to adapt, doesn't that imply that every time your driving style changes, you're in for another "adapt" period?

Just doesn't make sense to me.

[raudiace4]

smh.

It will take your ecu ~ 3 full warm - cold cycles to fully adapt to the new software. No its not every time your "driving habit" changes. It only means the initial adaptation from stock to tuned.

[paulo6]

I never understood this concept that the ecu (even base one with no tune) adapts to driving style...if car is not pushed hard normally then it will feel more sluggish than a car that is normally driven more aggressively, everything equal. So ya I'm curious ....

[chaos2984]

biggest thing is fuel trims have to adapt to that engine and environment. Thats what he means adapt.

[steve0827]

Hasn't this topic been answered multiple times?

[EasternLI]

Hasn't this topic been answered multiple times?

Almost every thread on this board has multiple previous threads about the same thing, seems nobody likes to search anymore so were jammed up with "what's the best tune" and "how is the ride on OE sport springs" all day

[chanceparker]

Sorry, I searched but got tired of wading thru the myriad of tune-related posts that don't answer this question.

And I still don't get it. By definition, modern engine control systems are continually adapting to a laundry list of inputs (temperature, elevation, octane, etc). There shouldn't be a need for an additional adaptive period, they should work fine as right out of the gate.

No big deal I suppose, it just doesn't compute for me.

[sirsycott]

there is no readaptation period when i went to stock to stage 1
i felt it immediately

going stage 1 to stage two i NOTICED the difference vastly



i call shenanigans on the adaptation crap GIAC stage 2 file btw,

[z_curtis_s4]

Almost every thread on this board has multiple previous threads about the same thing, seems nobody likes to search anymore so were jammed up with "what's the best tune" and "how is the ride on OE sport springs" all day

Well said Eastern LI....you would think if one was buying a tune they would research and understand the adaption/tuning process if they are going to make such an $$$investment. It's funny that CP didn't said if the car is faster after the tune, or fun to drive or anything like that. Always something......

[SwankPeRFection]

It goes something like this. Modern ECUs have multiple maps which they work with to get you what you finally get in terms of drivability/power of an engine. At the very basic level there are two maps, a base map and a correction value map. These maps exist for all variables that an engine has (fuel/timing/boost) at the very least. Once the ECU power is cut, the values the ECU has stored when taking the base map, applied the correction values map and gotten the final values the engine seems to like, this information is erased. It gets rebuilt as you drive the car and can take a few miles to get back to proper values as you'll have to hit multiple load points on each of these maps to get it all perfect. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of possible combinations once you hit all these load points.

With that part understood, the next variable is what the tuner does in terms of modifying the tune to get additional gains. Are they modifying the base maps or the correction value maps or possibly both? If the tuner modifies the base maps, then the difference in output should be felt immediately with only a minor improvement over the adaptation period. If the tuner modifies the correction values map, then there will be no felt difference initially and only after adaptation will you feel an improvement.


This is how I have seen ECUs from other platforms work in the past and I'm sure that while a bit more complex, the current Audi ones work the same way at the core concept.

[mr shickadance]

I never understood this concept that the ecu (even base one with no tune) adapts to driving style...if car is not pushed hard normally then it will feel more sluggish than a car that is normally driven more aggressively, everything equal. So ya I'm curious ....

yes precisely.

it does not take much to 'wake' up the motor tho, 1-2 WOT should do it.

[chanceparker]

Thank you Swank. Finally, a legitimate answer to an honest question.

[audistealth]

It goes something like this. Modern ECUs have multiple maps which they work with to get you what you finally get in terms of drivability/power of an engine. At the very basic level there are two maps, a base map and a correction value map. These maps exist for all variables that an engine has (fuel/timing/boost) at the very least. Once the ECU power is cut, the values the ECU has stored when taking the base map, applied the correction values map and gotten the final values the engine seems to like, this information is erased. It gets rebuilt as you drive the car and can take a few miles to get back to proper values as you'll have to hit multiple load points on each of these maps to get it all perfect. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of possible combinations once you hit all these load points.

With that part understood, the next variable is what the tuner does in terms of modifying the tune to get additional gains. Are they modifying the base maps or the correction value maps or possibly both? If the tuner modifies the base maps, then the difference in output should be felt immediately with only a minor improvement over the adaptation period. If the tuner modifies the correction values map, then there will be no felt difference initially and only after adaptation will you feel an improvement.


This is how I have seen ECUs from other platforms work in the past and I'm sure that while a bit more complex, the current Audi ones work the same way at the core concept.

Great post swank.

[Sukks2bu]

It goes something like this. Modern ECUs have multiple maps which they work with to get you what you finally get in terms of drivability/power of an engine. At the very basic level there are two maps, a base map and a correction value map. These maps exist for all variables that an engine has (fuel/timing/boost) at the very least. Once the ECU power is cut, the values the ECU has stored when taking the base map, applied the correction values map and gotten the final values the engine seems to like, this information is erased. It gets rebuilt as you drive the car and can take a few miles to get back to proper values as you'll have to hit multiple load points on each of these maps to get it all perfect. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of possible combinations once you hit all these load points.

With that part understood, the next variable is what the tuner does in terms of modifying the tune to get additional gains. Are they modifying the base maps or the correction value maps or possibly both? If the tuner modifies the base maps, then the difference in output should be felt immediately with only a minor improvement over the adaptation period. If the tuner modifies the correction values map, then there will be no felt difference initially and only after adaptation will you feel an improvement.


This is how I have seen ECUs from other platforms work in the past and I'm sure that while a bit more complex, the current Audi ones work the same way at the core concept.

Great response, to add to this, the master mechanic at my dealership explained to me, that if you have Drive Select, comfort and dynamic mode have pre determined maps, while auto is constantly adjusting to the way you drive.

[jmacb8s4]

Hopefully your '12 doesn't start falling apart post-tune like mine did. Audi's 0 tolerance for aftermarket products is bullshit.

[z_curtis_s4]

Hopefully your '12 doesn't start falling apart post-tune like mine did. Audi's 0 tolerance for aftermarket products is bullshit.

Could you go into detail about how your car started to fall apart post-tune?

[GeoJoe]

Hopefully your '12 doesn't start falling apart post-tune like mine did. Audi's 0 tolerance for aftermarket products is bullshit.

My dealer installed just about everything in my sig. 2012 CPO FTW

[z_curtis_s4]

My dealer installed just about everything in my sig. 2012 CPO FTW

So your AK, Intake, exhaust, etc started falling apart? I dont get it? Post tune made "everything in your sig" fall apart?

2012 Audi S4 Prestige 6MT with Sports Diff and ADS in Monsoon Grey| 35% tint | Black grill swap | Ti package OEM 19" 5 arm rotor wheels | Alu Kruez | Flat bottom steering wheel | AWE intake | AWE Exhaust | Eurodcode Short Shifter | Eurocode Sways and End Links | StopTech BBK | TSW Nurbrugring wheels in 19"x 8.5 with Toyo R888s in 265/35/19 for track days | P3 Vent Gauge | and still holding on to that CPO warranty to 100k

[GeoJoe]

So your AK, Intake, exhaust, etc started falling apart? I dont get it? Post tune made "everything in your sig" fall apart?

Uh no... You're looking for jmac. My shit is tight.

[z_curtis_s4]

Originally Posted by jmacb8s4
Hopefully your '12 doesn't start falling apart post-tune like mine did. Audi's 0 tolerance for aftermarket products is bullshit.


ok cool...I'm officially confused. good luck with your car, tune, etc.

[jmacb8s4]

Could you go into detail about how your car started to fall apart post-tune?

I have documented this elsewhere throughout this forum. Not long after exhaust install and APR Stage 1 flash, I received a "Gearbox Malfunction" warning. Audi faulted the tune and tried to pin me with a $5k bill; we ended up splitting it. After 3k miles, flashed ECU and went Stage 2 with pulley upgrade. In less than 3 months after going Stage 2, one of my catalytic converters began to disintegrate, also not a cheap fix. Audi said they wouldn't be able to cover under warranty, even made a comment that the aftermarket exhaust would've voided my warrant in this scenario, not to mention the tune. Went straight to BMW and ordered a M3.

[SwankPeRFection]

I have documented this elsewhere throughout this forum. Not long after exhaust install and APR Stage 1 flash, I received a "Gearbox Malfunction" warning. Audi faulted the tune and tried to pin me with a $5k bill; we ended up splitting it. After 3k miles, flashed ECU and went Stage 2 with pulley upgrade. In less than 3 months after going Stage 2, one of my catalytic converters began to disintegrate, also not a cheap fix. Audi said they wouldn't be able to cover under warranty, even made a comment that the aftermarket exhaust would've voided my warrant in this scenario, not to mention the tune. Went straight to BMW and ordered a M3.

No offense, but your gearbox malfunction was most likely a defective drive select sensor in the DSG. There's a documented TSB for that. You should have pushed. The other stuff, could have been a tune issue on the CAT. There's no documented failures of them with or without a tune. Certainly no "known" factory defects that Audi is aware of. Your first issue should have been handled under warranty.

[LINDW4LL]

I don't think he was insinuating that his car started falling asleep BECAUSE of the tune. I think he was more just saying that he had bad luck immediately after he had effectively made the decision to forego his warranty.

[jmacb8s4]

No offense, but your gearbox malfunction was most likely a defective drive select sensor in the DSG. There's a documented TSB for that. You should have pushed. The other stuff, could have been a tune issue on the CAT. There's no documented failures of them with or without a tune. Certainly no "known" factory defects that Audi is aware of. Your first issue should have been handled under warranty.

I am aware of the TSB and pushed for over a month on the gearbox issue. I'll never buy another Audi.

[audistealth]

I am aware of the TSB and pushed for over a month on the gearbox issue. I'll never buy another Audi.

And that seems totally reasonable given your experience.