Carbon Buildup on the 3.0 TFSI Pics!

[Tanner]

Thanks Andy, much appreciated. This has to be one of the most informative posts I've ever come across on AZ.

[RecklessactN]

If you don’t mind, what is the current mileage and what oil have you been using?

Did the dealer confirm if it was inlet valve carbon or somewhere else?

If you can get an oil sample we will pay for an oil analysis on our account with Blackstone.

I am at 46,xxx miles. I have the audi service plan so every 10k service interval I had the dealer service (castrol), but in between the service intervals I had my oil changed (5k miles) with Motul. The service rep said I did not throw the code to indicate I needed the SAI's cleaned, but it was highly recommended to do it now... again not my usual service rep that takes care of me. I do have a oil analysis from blackstone from my last oil change @ 40,xxx miles when I changed out the castrol oil for Motul. I will be doing another analysis on my next oil change at 50k miles (I forgot the blackstone bottle this last one :-P). I can post this up or PM you a link to the image. Let me know!

[AndyUK]

Yes, please post it up or PM me. Do you know what Motul and what Castrol were used?

I am at 46,xxx miles. I have the audi service plan so every 10k service interval I had the dealer service (castrol), but in between the service intervals I had my oil changed (5k miles) with Motul. The service rep said I did not throw the code to indicate I needed the SAI's cleaned, but it was highly recommended to do it now... again not my usual service rep that takes care of me. I do have a oil analysis from blackstone from my last oil change @ 40,xxx miles when I changed out the castrol oil for Motul. I will be doing another analysis on my next oil change at 50k miles (I forgot the blackstone bottle this last one :-P). I can post this up or PM you a link to the image. Let me know!

[RecklessactN]

Yes, please post it up or PM me. Do you know what Motul and what Castrol were used?

Ask and you shall receive! Castrol Syntec 5W/40

[audistealth]

If you don’t mind, what is the current mileage and what oil have you been using?

Did the dealer confirm if it was inlet valve carbon or somewhere else?

If you can get an oil sample we will pay for an oil analysis on our account with Blackstone.

Awesome job putting your money where your mouth is, and for science!

[ex-quattro PETE]

From other related tests I have always advocated the use of 502/505 spec oil (genuine full group IV or better base stocks only) on TFSI engines rather than the 504/507. 504/507 is marketed as superior oil but this is not the case. Many important ingredients were removed and replaced with inferior and more expensive alternatives in order to protect emission control components, such as the DPF, on VAG diesel engines.

Interesting. Your position seems to go against the earlier findings by Lubrizol where in fact they've shown that lower SAPS oils (such as 504/507) help reduce DI valve deposits...

https://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAd.../LowerSAPS.pdf

See slide 19. Any comments on this?


Also, the VW 504.00 test sequence actually includes a specific test to address intake valve deposits; something not found on any of the other VW oil specs. Again, it just seems odd as this contradicts your findings.

[shadycrew31]

This is a full-SAPS oil in a low cost base. Contains some PAO and Esters but mainly group III. Looks about right for the price.

It is not a bad oil and meets 502/505.01.

Would I use it in my S4? No.

It's not the best thing out there but I get a 5qt jug of it for $25 at wal-mart and I change my oil every 4-5000 miles. I will be cleaning my valves in a month or so I've only owned the car for 14k the previous owner only did minimal maintenance to the car. We shall see how dirty the valves are.

For arguments sake I will keep using M1 and clean the valves again next year so we can see what garbage oil it is.

[AndyUK]

This looks OK. It was the insolubles I was looking for. I would like to see alu it little lower in relation to the iron but again, it's not bad.

I am trying to find more info in the Syntec and will get back to you when I have the info.

Ask and you shall receive! Castrol Syntec 5W/40

[AndyUK]

Yes, your point is very valid and important.

The point I was trying to make with regards to the 504/507 was that "good stuff" was removed. This good stuff helps keep the crankcase much cleaner and can help maintain engine compression so that the intake components see less oil in the first place.

I would also agree that a 504/507 would outperform a group III full or mid-SAPS oil but my recommendation was for a group IV+ (ideally group IV with added group V/VI) 502/505.01.

That said, I don’t want to unintentionally mislead so may amend a couple of posts at some point. The comments on the research are still valid.

We have customers using high end 502/505.01 with good success and with acceptable deposit build-up. We also have customers using 504/507 with acceptable deposit build-up but the engines consume more oil and wear particulates tend to be higher.

Are US Audi Dealers adding 502/505 by default?

We are testing a 504/507 base oil and other virgin base oils with an additive pack that dramatically improves crankcase cleaning, lubricity and reduces oil consumption.

Thanks for your input.

Interesting. Your position seems to go against the earlier findings by Lubrizol where in fact they've shown that lower SAPS oils (such as 504/507) help reduce DI valve deposits...

https://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAd.../LowerSAPS.pdf

See slide 19. Any comments on this?


Also, the VW 504.00 test sequence actually includes a specific test to address intake valve deposits; something not found on any of the other VW oil specs. Again, it just seems odd as this contradicts your findings.

[ex-quattro PETE]

The point I was trying to make with regards to the 504/507 was that "good stuff" was removed. This good stuff helps keep the crankcase much cleaner and can help maintain engine compression so that the intake components see less oil in the first place.

My question was: if the "good stuff" was removed, then why do these 504/507 oils show lower deposits in Lubrizol's study, compared to full SAPS 502 oils?

Are US Audi Dealers adding 502/505 by default?

I believe they use 502 for gasoline engines and 504 for diesel.

Most German car makers advise against the use of lower SAPS oils in their gasoline engines in the US due to our gasoline not being ultra low sulfur yet.

[AndyUK]

The comparison 502 spec will undoubtedly be a low-value group III base and to answer your question – not all oils are the same even if they meet the same specification.

I'm sure you are already aware that Lubrizol is the world’s largest supplier of additives packs, supplying most mainstream brands. That study will second as sales material to potential clients to demonstrate that their 504/507 spec additive packs and blends are the best.

With a 504/507 oil there are many similarities as you are heavily restricted with what you can or can’t do with the oil.

502 is much more of an open book and quality varies considerably. The low cost group III 502/505 spec oils mentioned on here I would never use in my Audi. There are also “SAPS” based additives that per the ASTM test contain more ash than a full-SAPS oil yet are proven to be harmless to DPFs. We know because we have tested one. The A8 that we mentioned previously contained one and the DPF very rarely had to regenerate. Per the ASTM test and propaganda from some these companies the DPF should have shat itself very quickly. The additives actually helped catalyse the particulate build-up. Some ASTM tests are outdated and no longer fit for purpose as they only measure content and can’t differentiate between harmful and harmless.

Other questions that should be asked:

What would the results be if Lubrizol compared the 504 with a much higher quality 502?

If the results are that conclusive why haven’t Audi stipulated 504/507 as the only recommended oil? We too have very low sulphur in Europe.

With oils it not all black and white.

My question was: if the "good stuff" was removed, then why do these 504/507 oils show lower deposits in Lubrizol's study, compared to full SAPS 502 oils?


I believe they use 502 for gasoline engines and 504 for diesel.

Most German car makers advise against the use of lower SAPS oils in their gasoline engines in the US due to our gasoline not being ultra low sulfur yet.

[SwankPeRFection]

Hi SwankPeRFection, from my short time on this board I respect you and the input you provide but I don't like the term "insinuating" as it implies I am trying to be underhand or derogatory in some way. I assure you that I am not and the moment readers think that is the case I no longer wish to contribute.

I am just trying to give some insight without putting all cards on the table as I also have a reputation and career to think off.

Did I get it wrong with the M1 comment? Possibly. This is my dilemma:

The ingredients and in particular, the base stocks vary considerably between regions due to varying market demands and conditions. Add this to the fact that manufacturers continue to move the goal posts so anything I say or recommend may not only leave me open to litigation but in 6 month’s time when someone else reads what I wrote, there is a good chance that it is no longer factual. Also, there are so many brands that it is impossible to keep up to date with who is using what. Then there is the issue of most ingredients being non-haz and therefore do not have to be declared on MSDS, so obtaining formulations is very difficult. The key is matching the correct oil to the engine type, engine demands, climate, driving styles etc. against your requirements with regards to price, performance and level of protection. Sometimes this can be achieved with off-the-shelf oils and sometimes it requires a custom blend or use of oils plus additives.

My initial response to the use of M1 was based on the UK market in general. I am not sure what you pay in the US? It also depends on what M1 product you are using or have used? If you can provide a link to what you use I can take a look and possibly provide a more informed view.

I would like to put the carbon issue back into context for the S4 and S5 models. Firstly, being of FI design the build-up is generally not that bad. Secondly, being FI means the effect of the carbon on performance is minimal. Therefore, significant running problems or warning lights are likely to be very rare except for abused and/or high mileage examples. You are not aware or inconvenienced by the issue to the degree it is actually not an issue.

Contrast this to the RS4 where the build-up is much more prolific and being NA the impact on performance much more severe. It’s a double whammy.

I like using big words who's meaning I don't understand.

Don't take it to heart man. Right now you're arguing your viewpoint and it's going against what others have found. It's an insinuation by the very definition. There's nothing wrong with that. The fact that you're standing behind your viewpoint proves that you have a strong opinion about it, so it's not like you're just making stuff up. So like I said, don't get bent all out of shape over a single word. lol

The whole oil debate has gone back and forth about a billion times. What ends up happening?.... People will end up running what works best for them and what they have experience with. For me, and given my past experience, I trust M1 0-40 in my cars because I've seen how well it stands up to wear of metals and it hasn't let me down yet. It also keeps the insides of the motor oil passages very clean and considering the sludge problem some of the Audi motors had, that to me is a much bigger issue than the carbon deposit problem... at least for now it is.

[SwankPeRFection]

Ask and you shall receive! Castrol Syntec 5W/40

If this engine tuned? If yes, with what?

[RecklessactN]

If this engine tuned? If yes, with what?

Mods are up to date in sig (see below ) I have been APR STG 2 since 8-10k miles / Jan 2012.

[Chuuey]

Thank you AndyUK and others for you contributions and for making this an extremely informative thread. More of these are needed!

[achilleas101]

I would also agree that a 504/507 would outperform a group III full or mid-SAPS oil but my recommendation was for a group IV+ (ideally group IV with added group V/VI) 502/505.01.

so what are some group IV+ oils? how do you know what group an oil is? for example, you mention M1 is a group III, but i don't see that mentioned anywhere on their label or site. How does a guy find out this info?

[ex-quattro PETE]

how do you know what group an oil is?

That's tricky, in most markets. I think by now Germany is the only market where if you see "Full Synthetic" on the label it means predominantly group IV and above. So you could look up your oil on a respective German site, and see how it's labeled there. But then again, as AndyUK pointed out, formulations vary by region sometimes. So even if the product name is the same in Germany and in the US, it doesn't always mean it's the exact same formulation inside the container.

I would also like to hear AndyUK mention some group IV and above oils that officially meet the VW 502.00 spec.

[Moose201]

I would also like to hear AndyUK mention some group IV and above oils that officially meet the VW 502.00 spec.

+1

[mojangles69]

That's tricky, in most markets. I think by now Germany is the only market where if you see "Full Synthetic" on the label it means predominantly group IV and above. So you could look up your oil on a respective German site, and see how it's labeled there. But then again, as AndyUK pointed out, formulations vary by region sometimes. So even if the product name is the same in Germany and in the US, it doesn't always mean it's the exact same formulation inside the container.

I would also like to hear AndyUK mention some group IV and above oils that officially meet the VW 502.00 spec.

Excellent points and yes, any group IV oils in US? +2

And Andy, thank you again for all your insightful information!

[AndyUK]

I will see what I can dig up.....

[SwankPeRFection]

Mods are up to date in sig (see below ) I have been APR STG 2 since 8-10k miles / Jan 2012.

So you have no concern about the amount of aluminum in the analysis? Do you see this with each one?

[RecklessactN]

I am a little concerned and that was my first analysis. I do a lot of highway driving and punish the car a little when I can.

[AndyUK]

I would like to see the alu a little lower and more proportionate to the level of iron, but it is not bad considering it’s a stage 2.

For the poster that mentioned Porsche, I understand from a reliable source that Porsche are coating the valves on their engines. This would explain why their engines don’t suffer in the same way as the TFSI.

[SwankPeRFection]

I would like to see the alu a little lower and more proportionate to the level of iron, but it is not bad considering it’s a stage 2.

For the poster that mentioned Porsche, I understand from a reliable source that Porsche are coating the valves on their engines. This would explain why their engines don’t suffer in the same way as the TFSI.

My first analysis on mine at 30k miles was 3 for Alu and 15 for Iron. Not sure I'd want to see Alu anywhere near what he's showing base on this.

[artemm]

If it's true that the oil itself is responsible for creating the initial conditions that lead to carbon buildup, wouldn't it make sense to try an oil additive?

Perhaps running a small amount of Kreen or adding it 1000 miles before the scheduled OCI...

Oh, and for what it's worth, I use M1 0w40 and my 3.0T burns no oil. I fill it to the top of the hatch marks on my dipstick and it's still at the top when I change my oil at 7,500 miles. I know this has little to do with the carbon issue at hand, but the fact that my engine consumes no oil and the price/availability of M1 make it hard to resist.

[Moose201]

Oh, and for what it's worth, I use M1 0w40 and my 3.0T burns no oil. I fill it to the top of the hatch marks on my dipstick and it's still at the top when I change my oil at 7,500 miles. I know this has little to do with the carbon issue at hand, but the fact that my engine consumes no oil and the price/availability of M1 make it hard to resist.

This has been my exact experience with M1 as well.

[ex-quattro PETE]

If it's true that the oil itself is responsible for creating the initial conditions that lead to carbon buildup, wouldn't it make sense to try an oil additive?

If I understood it correctly, it's the oil VAPORS that carbonize and deposit themselves onto the valves. So, you either make your oil out of some super stable base that does not vaporize easily, which is probably next to impossible to do given the high temps inside the engine, or you come up with some kind of an oil additive that prevents the vapors from reacting with the valve material so that the deposits don't stick, and I think that's what AndyUK has been working on.

[infinkc]

I would like to see the alu a little lower and more proportionate to the level of iron, but it is not bad considering it’s a stage 2.

For the poster that mentioned Porsche, I understand from a reliable source that Porsche are coating the valves on their engines. This would explain why their engines don’t suffer in the same way as the TFSI.

i wonder if its the case with the Macan as its using a very similar engine to the s4.

[audistealth]

i wonder if its the case with the Macan as its using a very similar engine to the s4.

Better yet, what if their valves have the Porsche coating, and are the exact same size :)

[ex-quattro PETE]

i wonder if its the case with the Macan as its using a very similar engine to the s4.

They're both V6, and they're both around 3 liters in displacement, but that's about where the similarities end.

[artemm]

If I understood it correctly, it's the oil VAPORS that carbonize and deposit themselves onto the valves. So, you either make your oil out of some super stable base that does not vaporize easily, which is probably next to impossible to do given the high temps inside the engine, or you come up with some kind of an oil additive that prevents the vapors from reacting with the valve material so that the deposits don't stick, and I think that's what AndyUK has been working on.

That's exactly the opposite of what I got from it... valve metals act as a catalyst and facilitate carbon buildup. Also, vapors (handled by the PCV) aren't directly to blame, so a catch can or other PCV-centric solution won't help.

Not sure what you mean by oil vaporizing. The gasses handled by the PCV are cylinder blowby and I'm not aware of an oil that can avoid it.

Actually, on other cars, I found that I "increase" oil consumption by adding a catch can. The PCV systems I've dealt with have a mechanism that separates oil blowby from gasses. Oil drips back into the sump and gasses go back into the intake and are burned. Catch cans circumvent all of this, so you just constantly siphon oil from the system.

[AndyUK]

Oil analysis should be used as a guide only as many factors can affect the results.

1. How well the oil transports particulates to the filtration media.
2. Journey types – 100 x 100 mile trips will have much lower wear than 500 x 20 mile trips.
3. How the sample is taken is also important. For example, Blackstone recommends ignoring the start or end of an oil drain as the first 100ml or last 100ml can affect results for the worse.
4. Engine tuning. We don’t have sufficient data on the S4 B48 yet but know from the S3 that wear particulates can increase 3 times when going from standard to stage 2. Demands on the pistons are much greater.
5. Fuel lubricity etc. etc.

3 ppm alu is very good but I am guessing your engine is standard tune? Follow up analysis that you can compare will provide more valuable data and help determine if any of the values are anomalies or trends.

My first analysis on mine at 30k miles was 3 for Alu and 15 for Iron. Not sure I'd want to see Alu anywhere near what he's showing base on this.

[AndyUK]

Oil addtives - we are testing......

If it's true that the oil itself is responsible for creating the initial conditions that lead to carbon buildup, wouldn't it make sense to try an oil additive?

Perhaps running a small amount of Kreen or adding it 1000 miles before the scheduled OCI...

Oh, and for what it's worth, I use M1 0w40 and my 3.0T burns no oil. I fill it to the top of the hatch marks on my dipstick and it's still at the top when I change my oil at 7,500 miles. I know this has little to do with the carbon issue at hand, but the fact that my engine consumes no oil and the price/availability of M1 make it hard to resist.

[AndyUK]

I have on good authority that Porsche made a significant investment with regards to anti-stick coating technologies (different to anti-friction).

I expect they are using a plasma vapour deposition process to coat the valves with a chosen material to around 2-5 microns thick. Either way these are expensive processes.

Better yet, what if their valves have the Porsche coating, and are the exact same size :)

[NWS4Guy]

I have on good authority that Porsche made a significant investment with regards to anti-stick coating technologies (different to anti-friction).

I expect they are using a plasma vapour deposition process to coat the valves with a chosen material to around 2-5 microns thick. Either way these are expensive processes.

Not to mention that the Macan has twin turbo, not a supercharger. Our engine design has the vapors (after traversing the labyrinth system) entering the bottom of the supercharger for introduction into the intake system (the small tube at the bottom of the SC if you remove it from the car). Not sure where or how Porsche introduces this back in for recombustion.

[mr shickadance]

Not to mention that the Macan has twin turbo, not a supercharger. Our engine design has the vapors (after traversing the labyrinth system) entering the bottom of the supercharger for introduction into the intake system (the small tube at the bottom of the SC if you remove it from the car). Not sure where or how Porsche introduces this back in for recombustion.

prolly similarly to the 2.0t fsi engine in the b8 a4's and a5's.

[shadycrew31]

Going to attempt this on Sunday IF the GF can occupy herself that day.... I am getting a small nozzle for the shop vac so I can suck up anything that comes loose, starting with the carbon steel to break it up, then nylon, the brass and steel brushes in the big kit wont be used.

[Moose201]

Going to attempt this on Sunday IF the GF can occupy herself that day.... I am getting a small nozzle for the shop vac so I can suck up anything that comes loose, starting with the carbon steel to break it up, then nylon, the brass and steel brushes in the big kit wont be used.

Make sure it's unloaded and pointed in a safe direction. Start from the breech side if possible.

[shadycrew31]

Make sure it's unloaded and pointed in a safe direction. Start from the breech side if possible.

Like this right?

[Moose201]

Like this right?

Yes, but only if you do it just the opposite of that!