About to install Bilstein PSS10 coilovers; need tips and suggestions?

[stactum]

Hi fellow members,

I am about to have Bilstein PSS10 installed on my 2013 S4 and have a couple of questions for folks who have that setup.
What are tips and suggestion from people who have similar setup? I am thinking about 1-inch drop and I am running OE 19" wheels

I know in this thread people recommended installing spring silencers. I am going to have coilovers installed first and then will determine whether I need silencers or not.

I am also considering wheel spacers - any suggestions what will work best with OE tires and 1-inch drop? I was thinking 5mm front and 10mm rear, but also heard it might cause vibration. Any suggestions on spacers.

Thanks in advance.

[westwest888]

If you care about performance, set the corners at the maximum height. It will still be 15mm lower than stock. Take it to a shop with corner balance scales and get the cross weights done, with the tires inflated to 40 PSI with your weight in the driver's seat and half a tank of gas. Set the swaybar preload to zero with this weight in the car. Then get this alignment:

6.0deg (or greater) caster front
1/32 total toe out front
-2.0 camber front
1/32 total toe in rear
-2.0 camber rear

If you just want to the car to look slammed and you don't care if it handles worse than stock, disregard the above. I don't recommend spacers unless you like torquing down your wheels every month. The extra aluminum piece expands when you drive and it loosens your wheel nuts from the desired 88 ft/lb.

[raudiace4]

If you just want to the car to look slammed and you don't care if it handles worse than stock, disregard the above. I don't recommend spacers unless you like torquing down your wheels every month. The extra aluminum piece expands when you drive and it loosens your wheel nuts from the desired 88 ft/lb.

Is there any truth to this? Other people with spacers have this issue?

[F40LM]

Is there any truth to this? Other people with spacers have this issue?

http://bit.ly/1lEPjx8

[raudiace4]

http://bit.ly/1lEPjx8

+1 for originality.

[AKPS4]

Pics of installation would be good. And a review as well.

[F40LM]

+1 for originality.

LOL I looked it up myself, so I figured I'd share it with you.

[NOFEARCT]

I'm very interested in PSS10's for my RS5. Please share any insights you may have, there doesn't seem to be that much info available on here about Bilsteins--KW seems to get more votes.

[SteveYem]

Is there any truth to this? Other people with spacers have this issue?

Not true in my experience. I have been running 5mm front / 10mm rear wheel spacers with my stock 19" peelers for almost a year now and have not noticed any unusual vibration, steering issues or wheels falling off to indicate that my wheel bolts have become any looser than when I torqued them at installation. Just the other day I had one of the front wheels off and used my 18" breaker bar to loosen the wheel bolts with what felt to be similar amount of force required on my 18" torque wrench to seat them to 90 lb-ft. I saw no evidence of corrosion on the bolt threads, so I do not think any of the required breaking torque was "false torque" due to corrosion.

Expansion and contraction of metal parts due to temperature fluctuation is a real thing, of course. Keep in mind that the wheel bolts are also metal (typically steel for a street car) and will also expand with rising temperature, although the linear thermal expansion coefficient for steel is approx. 40% less than that of aluminum, meaning that for a given temperature increase for two equivalent geometries, one of steel and one of aluminum, the steel piece will grow ~40% less than the aluminum piece.

In the case of the wheel+spacer+bolts assembly, we could simplify it and say the the wheel center, the spacer and the bolts all experience the same temperature rise. The wheel is aluminum, the spacers are likely aluminum as well, and the bolts are steel. The material wants to expand in the path of least resistance - let's say that is directly away from the wheel hub.
The studs want to get longer as they heat up and are constrained in the threaded holes in the brake rotor so they will grow directly out from the hub.

The governing equation for thermal growth is L(final) = L(initial) x Alpha(thermal expansion coeff.) x deltaT
Alpha (steel) = 7.3 x 10^-6 in/in-degF
Alpha (aluminum) = 12.3 x 10^-6 in/in-degF

Let's say that during normal daily driving your brakes heat up to 650 deg.F, and let's say you have 30mm wheel bolts. Plugging into the equation above we find that the thermal expansion of your 30mm wheel bolts would be approx. 0.0056".
Then let's assume a 5mm aluminum wheel spacer, which is a flat disc with a hole in the center. We can assume that every linear dimension of the disc (inner dia., outer dia., thickness) is governed by the same thermal expansion equation provided above. So plugging in the values, we find the increase of thickness of the aluminum spacer would be approx. 0.0015".

Based on this model, the wheel bolts expand more than the 5mm wheel spacer, so I don't think we can blame any loosening of bolts on the wheel spacer alone.

So assuming this is correct, why doesn't the wheel become loose by ~0.004" when heat cycled by the brakes? Because the brake rotor, into which the wheel is bolted, is also expanding in every direction due to the same heat. I would think that loosening occurs between the wheel bolts and brake rotor due to the bolts and rotor expanding at different rates for a given temperature, which could allow the stress in the threads (the stress induced from torquing the bolts) to decrease and thereby decrease the amount of clamping force at that interface.

[IanCH]

I just checked my spacers after ~500 miles since install. Not a lick of difference in torque still 100ft-lbs

Also, I use anti seize on all my bolts, inside the hub and on the face of the spacer. The only truth to spacer causing your wheels to loosen is that the people putting on spacers and having wheels come loose are usually idiots.

[drob23]

Yea, this is just some typical west west nonsense. Wheel spacers could surely have negatives, but having your wheels fall off is not one of them. Just re-torque after driving 50 miles or so. Use a torque wrench...just basic stuff.

Or else you end up like this guy

"Here is where it gets interesting. The tow truck didn't have a flat bed so we jacked up the rear, bolted the wheel on and went on my merry way. "

[SteveYem]

I just checked my spacers after ~500 miles since install. Not a lick of difference in torque still 100ft-lbs

Also, I use anti seize on all my bolts, inside the hub and on the face of the spacer. The only truth to spacer causing your wheels to loosen is that the people putting on spacers and having wheels come loose are usually idiots.

Just for the sake of discussion and not an argument by any means, but it's interesting that you are exceeding the Audi-recommended seating torque by ~13%, and presumably their value is a "dry torque" value, but you are lubricating the threads. Usually I've seen torque specs for "wet" bolts considerably lower than "dry" bolts of the same size.

Anyway, I agree with your statement that wheel departure is likely due to installation error and not thermal deformation of the spacer or the bolts. I have been running 15mm thick adapter-type spacers on my 350z rear wheels for ~3000 miles now and have not had a single issue. Note, I did the "right thing" and after ~50 miles of driving I removed the wheels and checked torque on the adapter-to-hub lug nuts, then reinstalled the wheel and after another ~50 miles of driving checked torque on the wheel-to-adapter lug nuts. I would bet than most people running adapter-type spacers never, ever remove the wheel to check torque on the adapter fasteners.

[IanCH]

Just for the sake of discussion and not an argument by any means, but it's interesting that you are exceeding the Audi-recommended seating torque by ~13%, and presumably their value is a "dry torque" value, but you are lubricating the threads. Usually I've seen torque specs for "wet" bolts considerably lower than "dry" bolts of the same size.

Anyway, I agree with your statement that wheel departure is likely due to installation error and not thermal deformation of the spacer or the bolts. I have been running 15mm thick adapter-type spacers on my 350z rear wheels for ~3000 miles now and have not had a single issue. Note, I did the "right thing" and after ~50 miles of driving I removed the wheels and checked torque on the adapter-to-hub lug nuts, then reinstalled the wheel and after another ~50 miles of driving checked torque on the wheel-to-adapter lug nuts. I would bet than most people running adapter-type spacers never, ever remove the wheel to check torque on the adapter fasteners.

Audi seat torque is up to 100ft-lbs I think, but it might be slightly under that, when I looked it up they specify a range. I honestly cant think of a reason that you would want to find the bottom of that torque range. The only risk is stretching the bolts, and the 10.9 class bolts provided with my ECS spacers have an ideal torque rating of 1580kgf -cm == 115 ft-lbs - Exceeding the factory spec and staying under the ideal max for the bolt is the sweet spot for me.

sources:

http://us.misumi-ec.com/pdf/tech/mech/p2849.pdf
http://www.unitconversion.org/energy...onversion.html

[raudiace4]

Just for the sake of discussion and not an argument by any means, but it's interesting that you are exceeding the Audi-recommended seating torque by ~13%, and presumably their value is a "dry torque" value, but you are lubricating the threads. Usually I've seen torque specs for "wet" bolts considerably lower than "dry" bolts of the same size.

Anyway, I agree with your statement that wheel departure is likely due to installation error and not thermal deformation of the spacer or the bolts. I have been running 15mm thick adapter-type spacers on my 350z rear wheels for ~3000 miles now and have not had a single issue. Note, I did the "right thing" and after ~50 miles of driving I removed the wheels and checked torque on the adapter-to-hub lug nuts, then reinstalled the wheel and after another ~50 miles of driving checked torque on the wheel-to-adapter lug nuts. I would bet than most people running adapter-type spacers never, ever remove the wheel to check torque on the adapter fasteners.

That's what I figured.

[raudiace4]

Not true in my experience. I have been running 5mm front / 10mm rear wheel spacers with my stock 19" peelers for almost a year now and have not noticed any unusual vibration, steering issues or wheels falling off to indicate that my wheel bolts have become any looser than when I torqued them at installation. Just the other day I had one of the front wheels off and used my 18" breaker bar to loosen the wheel bolts with what felt to be similar amount of force required on my 18" torque wrench to seat them to 90 lb-ft. I saw no evidence of corrosion on the bolt threads, so I do not think any of the required breaking torque was "false torque" due to corrosion.

Expansion and contraction of metal parts due to temperature fluctuation is a real thing, of course. Keep in mind that the wheel bolts are also metal (typically steel for a street car) and will also expand with rising temperature, although the linear thermal expansion coefficient for steel is approx. 40% less than that of aluminum, meaning that for a given temperature increase for two equivalent geometries, one of steel and one of aluminum, the steel piece will grow ~40% less than the aluminum piece.

In the case of the wheel+spacer+bolts assembly, we could simplify it and say the the wheel center, the spacer and the bolts all experience the same temperature rise. The wheel is aluminum, the spacers are likely aluminum as well, and the bolts are steel. The material wants to expand in the past of least resistance - let's say that is directly away from the wheel hub.
The studs want to get longer as they heat up and are constrained in the threaded holes in the brake rotor so they will grow directly out from the hub.

The governing equation for thermal growth is L(final) = L(initial) x Alpha(thermal expansion coeff.) x deltaT
Alpha (steel) = 7.3 x 10^-6 in/in-degF
Alpha (aluminum) = 12.3 x 10^-6 in/in-degF

Let's say that during normal daily driving your brakes heat up to 650 deg.F, and let's say you have 30mm wheel bolts. Plugging into the equation above we find that the thermal expansion of your 30mm wheel bolts would be approx. 0.0056".
Then let's assume a 5mm aluminum wheel spacer, which is a flat disc with a hole in the center. We can assume that every linear dimension of the disc (inner dia., outer dia., thickness) is governed by the same thermal expansion equation provided above. So plugging in the values, we find the increase of thickness of the aluminum spacer would be approx. 0.0015".

Based on this model, the wheel bolts expand more than the 5mm wheel spacer, so I don't think we can blame any loosening of bolts on the wheel spacer alone.

So assuming this is correct, why doesn't the wheel become loose by ~0.004" when heat cycled by the brakes? Because the brake rotor, into which the wheel is bolted, is also expanding in every direction due to the same heat. I would think that loosening occurs between the wheel bolts and brake rotor due to the bolts and rotor expanding at different rates for a given temperature, which could allow the stress in the threads (the stress induced from torquing the bolts) to decrease and thereby decrease the amount of clamping force at that interface.

Well, thanks for the informative post. Felt like I was back in school trying to read through that lol.

[VMRWheels]

If you're doing everything correctly, you shouldn't have a problem with spacers at all. Most of the staff here either has run spacers, or is currently running spacers, on their cars, and don't have problems with their wheels falling off.

[SteveYem]

Audi seat torque is up to 100ft-lbs I think, but it might be slightly under that, when I looked it up they specify a range. I honestly cant think of a reason that you would want to find the bottom of that torque range. The only risk is stretching the bolts, and the 10.9 class bolts provided with my ECS spacers have an ideal torque rating of 1580kgf -cm == 115 ft-lbs - Exceeding the factory spec and staying under the ideal max for the bolt is the sweet spot for me.

sources:

http://us.misumi-ec.com/pdf/tech/mech/p2849.pdf
http://www.unitconversion.org/energy...onversion.html

I see where you are coming from. Hell, I usually set my torque wrench to the value specified in the owners manual but keep going for about an eighth of a turn after it clicks, so I'm theoretically always over the spec. limit too.

I don't know if there is any truth to this, but I've seen discussions on car forums where people claim that over-torquing lug nuts or wheel bolts can actually cause the brake rotor to distort, which manifests itself in vibration and pulsation in the brake pedal when the brakes are applied. Even if that's a real thing, I would think the threads in the rotor would strip out before the disc distorts, but I've never tested the theory so I really have no idea.

[drob23]

Just for the sake of discussion and not an argument by any means, but it's interesting that you are exceeding the Audi-recommended seating torque by ~13%, and presumably their value is a "dry torque" value, but you are lubricating the threads. Usually I've seen torque specs for "wet" bolts considerably lower than "dry" bolts of the same size.

I have likewise heard this about torquing bolts with anti-seize on the threads.

As a random side note, does anyone else use the bolt on TRAK style H&R spacers? They bolt onto the hubs with H&R provided bolts that have a very "short" face. So it's really hard to get much engagement with a socket. This coupled with some anti-seize getting in the threads made removing them a royal PITA. My breaker bar is angled (not a good one that has a pivoting head) and I could not make enough torque to unseat the bolts. Ended up using a ratcheting wrench and a pipe over it to get the enough torque while also keeping the bolt engaged (i.e. no off-axis torque).

[westwest888]

Spacers are an anti performance mod. They introduce a 3rd material, aluminum, in between the steel hub and the alloy wheel. Aluminum when heated like on a track expands and loosens your wheels. Moving the wheels out puts an unnatural strain on the whole system.

Because slammed because street racing because bags.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[IanCH]

Spacers are an anti performance mod. They introduce a 3rd material, aluminum, in between the steel hub and the alloy wheel. Aluminum when heated like on a track expands and loosens your wheels. Moving the wheels out puts an unnatural strain on the whole system.

Because slammed because street racing because bags.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

No. When the aluminum "expands" due to heat it expands ever so slightly within the constraints of the wheel hub, wheel and bolt, temporarily increasing the axial load on the bolt by a very small amount. In this "expansion" no parts actually move in a percetible manner because the steel is much stronger in the tensile direction than the compressive strength of the aluminum.

[noshadow]

If you care about performance, set the corners at the maximum height. It will still be 15mm lower than stock.

I'm getting the Bilstein Ride Controls installed now, they are basically the same as PSS10, but I've heard the max height is 33mm lower than stock?

http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/p...b16-pss9pss10/

Lowering of approx. 30-50 mm at front and rear

[stactum]

I'm getting the Bilstein Ride Controls installed now, they are basically the same as PSS10, but I've heard the max height is 33mm lower than stock?

http://www.bilsteinus.com/products/p...b16-pss9pss10/

Is this an existing add-on to PSS10 that allows to control stiffness remotely?

[NOFEARCT]

Is this an existing add-on to PSS10 that allows to control stiffness remotely?

It must be an entirely different system if it has adjustable dampening?

[noshadow]

Is this an existing add-on to PSS10 that allows to control stiffness remotely?

Totally different. Uses the same dampener/springs. Not an addon.

[wwhan]

I'm getting the Bilstein Ride Controls installed now, they are basically the same as PSS10, but I've heard the max height is 33mm lower than stock?...

There is no way the PSS10 adjustment range has max height of 33mm lower than stock on the B8 S4.

I had PSS10 on my 2011 S4, set to max height, which was about 15mm lower than stock. The rear adjusters
have a very large adjustment range (much larger than the KW).

The Bilstein Part Number: 48-147231, B16 (PSS10) fits all the Audi models below, in spite of the weight & height differences;
http://cart.bilsteinus.com/product/48-147231/314391/AWD
Audi
2008 Audi A5 Quattro Base V6 3.2L Front and Rear
2008 Audi S5 Base V8 4.2L Front and Rear
2009 Audi A4 Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2009 Audi A4 Quattro Avant L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2009 Audi A4 Quattro Base V6 3.2L Front and Rear
2009 Audi A4 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2009 Audi A5 Quattro Base V6 3.2L Front and Rear
2009 Audi S5 Base V8 4.2L Front and Rear
2010 Audi A4 Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2010 Audi A4 Quattro Avant L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2010 Audi A4 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2010 Audi A5 Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2010 Audi A5 Quattro Base V6 3.2L Front and Rear
2010 Audi A5 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2010 Audi A5 Quattro Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2010 Audi S4 Base V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2010 Audi S5 Base V8 4.2L Front and Rear
2010 Audi S5 Cabriolet V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi A4 Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi A4 Quattro Avant L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi A4 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi A5 Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi A5 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi A5 Quattro Base V6 3.2L Front and Rear
2011 Audi A5 Quattro Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi S4 Base V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi S5 Cabriolet V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2011 Audi S5 Base V8 4.2L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A4 Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A4 Quattro Avant L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A4 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A5 Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A5 Base L4 1.8L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A5 Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A5 Quattro Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi A5 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi S4 Base V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi S5 Cabriolet V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2012 Audi S5 Base V8 4.2L Front and Rear
2012 Audi S5 Base V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A4 Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A4 Base L4 1.8L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A4 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A5 Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A5 Base L4 1.8L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A5 Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A5 Quattro Cabriolet L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi A5 Quattro Base L4 2.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi S4 Base V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi S5 Cabriolet V6 3.0L Front and Rear
2013 Audi S5 Base V6 3.0L Front and Rear

[mact3333]

On a side note, which authorized dealer has the best price for the pss 10's????

[noshadow]

There is no way the PSS10 adjustment range has max height of 33mm lower than stock on the B8 S4.

I had PSS10 on my 2011 S4, set to max height, which was about 15mm lower than stock. The rear adjusters
have a very large adjustment range (much larger than the KW).

I just see the height min/max that's listed on the link I sent? I also thought it curious that it ranged 30-50mm. But if you have real world experience, then I believe it.

[stactum]

On a side note, which authorized dealer has the best price for the pss 10's????

I got mine from AWE Tuning, they had special on it a week or so ago.

[millerrh]

I've got the PSS10s (was the guy that started the silencer thread). The threads allow you to have a very wide range of heights. 15mm seems about right for max height. I'm sitting at 26 1/4" fender to ground right now, which is probably close to 20mm and I've still got thread left. The manual gives some height ranges that are rather narrow in scope (much narrower than the threads allow). I'm guessing it's for optimal shock position since they physically can be set outside of those limits. The highest level according to the manual is just under 26" fender to ground. Setting this at 215mm is still pretty damn low.

[jauri]

poopy

On a side note, which authorized dealer has the best price for the pss 10's????

[millerrh]

I got mine from AWE Tuning, they had special on it a week or so ago.

Also got mine from AWE.

[B0bbyB0b]

Bringing back an old thread.

Just bought a set myself but have never installed adjustable coil overs before. First car to actually do some tuning on! Can anyone point me to any DIY posts on the install. Have been reading a lot on preload, etc., which again is all new to me. Installing suspension and working on a car is not, just coil overs.

Thanks in advance for the help!

[BLKPERL]

I'm glad this thread came up. Just picked up a set. Do I need to run adjustable control arms for 1.5" lower than stock?

[B0bbyB0b]

Bumping...anyone out there that has completed a B16 PSS10 coilover install willing to help some brothers out???

[m1k3d3]

ECS has a pretty thorough write up

Make sure you have the right tools. You'll also want to re-level your headlights, not sure if you can do this via VCDS, but there are plastic hex screws accessible on top of the headlight that allow you to adjust the beam.

Re: Spacers above, I have 10 mm & 12.5 mm ECS spacers and have not had any issues with lugs coming loose even after 2 years.

[B0bbyB0b]

ECS has a pretty thorough write up

Make sure you have the right tools. You'll also want to re-level your headlights, not sure if you can do this via VCDS, but there are plastic hex screws accessible on top of the headlight that allow you to adjust the beam.

Thanks, m1! I have read this write up before and am curious on the preload that I have seen in other places. They don’t mention it in their write up. Does that mean do the standard 4mm of preload and call it good? Also, I have heard it’s easier to remove the upper control arms at the hat vs at the pinch bolt, any truth to that?

Again, appreciate the help!

[mys4.org]

I just install Coilovers last weekend get the socket spreader tool to release the control arms at the perch or you will need to pre load the control arms. You also need to preload the rear lower shock bolt. I forgot to do that, but will fix soon. Don't remove the entire rear wheel liner like ECS guide suggest. Just take off a few connector clips around the very top of the shock mount to body point.

Best advise is find access to a lift and get a buddy to help.

FYI, if you want some weight saving remove all the underbody panels to dump rocks and dirt that has collected. I could not believe how much there was for me.

[B0bbyB0b]

Cheers my friend!

[KAMP]

Bringing back and old thread.. So do no bumps stops go into the PSS10 coilovers? I’m in the middle of install right now and seeing that the strut rod goes up through the “top hat” who’s circular center is also metal. I assume the shock strut won’t move around?..just seems different than most other suspension Ive done before.