6MT Rev Matches on downshifts......cool

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-30-2014 09:31 PM

Had my '14 Estoril 6MT S4 for a couple months now, love it. Playing in the snow with that torsen rear end is great fun

One cool thing I havent seen discussed on here is the Rev matching on Downshifts. As soon as I start to release the clutch(way before friction point) on a big downshift the computer slings the RPM up to the right spot and bang you can release the clutch for perfect downshifts. Love it

Did all 6mt's have this feature all the way back to 2010?

**SilveR316** · 03-30-2014 09:42 PM

It does rev match... but only if you completely fuck up the rev matching yourself. It's been discussed before and general consensus is that your RPM has to be north of ~3500 and you have to be off by over 1000 revs.

My best guess is that it is a safety feature built in to prevent screwing your drivetrain when you shift in to 2nd gear instead of 4th, or something similar.

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-30-2014 09:47 PM

Cool, well I never rev match on downshifts, so I guess thats why I am seeing it do its thing lots. Never had a problem with messing the drivetrain on any other of my many MT cars that I drove the shit out of.

Just found it interesting that it rev matches for me.

**TSXCman** · 03-30-2014 09:55 PM

Cool technology. Never knew it was on the s4s. I assume its not on the b8, but then again I wouldn't downshift without rev matching anyways...
Seems weird to hear you say you don't rev match but drive the shot out of your car. I learnt to drive manual at 14 and would a been slapped upside the head if I didn't learn to do it right

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-30-2014 10:13 PM

I drive my cars pretty hard but I'm not a track guy so i'm not not generally dropping my car into 3rd at 80mph to get that last bit of rpm before redline lol.

And to be honest i've driven manuals all my life(I'm 38), been around other people who drove manuals all their lives, and drove them hard. And while I knew the concept of rev matching, I did not know it was common practice until about 5 years ago after owning a Subaru Legacy Spec B, and reading about it on their forums. Even then, I did not attempt to learn.

I dunno, call me sheltered if you must, but i'm sure there lots of other longtime MT drivers out there with a similar story as me.

Anyways, just cool to see it in action with no inpuut from me, and i'm sure mine does it on almost all downsfifts, so I don't think the RPM limits discussed above apply to my car. hmmmmm, maybe its time for another drive

, and to attempt a few rev matches on my own.

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-30-2014 10:34 PM

Confirmed, I just did about 20 downshifts, All starting from below 3000 and even below 2000RPM and my car rev matched for me on each and every one of them, even from 3rd-2nd at under 2000RPM.

Perhaps my car has just learned that I am one of those nasty non rev matching downshifters and has given up and accepted the fact that it must do the work lol

**Dannydyn** · 03-31-2014 05:38 AM

The rev-matching is definitely there, but I wouldn't say it's spot on. More for the reduction of wear and tear of the flywheel, than actually making a pin-point accurate rev-up. When I start releasing the clutch, the engine would rev up, but not all the way to where it should be on the next-down gear. Upon proceeding to fully disengage it, the engine then bumps another x1000rpms or so. But definitely makes the whole downshift process smoother.

As a side note, I prefer to rev-match myself, and do a bit of assisting on the auto rev-up.

**Okan509** · 03-31-2014 06:18 AM

don't understand why you wouldn't rev match

it is essential in even spirited driving. Even in grocery getting driving.

that kinda blows my mind.

And for the record. it's only on the b8.5 14+ models so far. so even the 13 doesn't have it.

**SeaBassHWD** · 03-31-2014 06:29 AM

Might have to try this. Never noticed it but I try to rev match myself so maybe that's why.

**IceAero** · 03-31-2014 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by Okan509

don't understand why you wouldn't rev match

it is essential in even spirited driving. Even in grocery getting driving.

that kinda blows my mind.

And for the record. it's only on the b8.5 14+ models so far. so even the 13 doesn't have it.

Ha, yeah the 13 definitely doesn't have it! But I'm with you, I blip my throttle on every downshift, and I don't think I know another way to drive. I'm convinced that the daily practice has made me a much better driver. I'm not saying I can go 6 to 2 at 40mph without a passenger noticing, but I'd like to think I'm still pretty smooth with it.

**TSXCman** · 03-31-2014 08:25 AM

I didn't mean to rag on the OP for not rev matching, but I think it is very important to do. So maybe play around with it anyways (even though the 14' has cool tech to do it).

For instance, I don't heel-toe downshift, I only did that on the track and it was difficult to learn. It is very hard (for me) to do with the peddle setup on the 11' S4. Technically, it would be the best move, as you are steadily breaking and also downshifting/rev matching, all very smoothly. So I admit that I am not even using the best possible driving method of heel-toe, but breaking and rev matching separately is still useful.

But, say you are in 6th gear and you can see a red light ahead, you could either:

a) hold gear, break gently, and engage clutch when nearly stopped (to not stall and be ready for 1st)
b) go neutral and break gently (highly not recommended, as you burn gas while your car hold at idle revs, compared to letting the revs drop with your drop in speed)
c) down shift and rev blip for 4th or so, break gently, and keep dropping gears to match your appropriate speed.

The thing about c is that your engaged in a gear, so you are safe to accelerate if needed right away. Also, the resistance of your lower gear is greater and assists in slowing down, without clutch or transmission wear since you rev matched. When slowing down in gear, your car doesn't need to spray gas, since you are decelerating (if it used gas your revs would increase or remain constant). AND it's fun and engaging.

**SwissBliss** · 03-31-2014 08:47 AM

Very cool!! I remember when the 370z was the first car to have that standard on their 6 speeds.

**Daily Driver** · 03-31-2014 08:49 AM

That's funny, I haven't noticed it on mine yet but guess that's because I'm rev matching. TSXCman, yes if rev matching, then dropping gears may be ideal, but if I'm too close to the light then I'm putting it in neutral and using the brake.

Who else finds the "green" suggestion in the 6MT annoying? Is this also a '14 thing? It seems to always want me in 6th.

**MrPink462** · 03-31-2014 08:55 AM

Any way to retrofit the rev-matching to older models?

**Dannydyn** · 03-31-2014 08:58 AM

Wish I could heel-toe but the pedals are positioned very awkwardly in our cars.

**IceAero** · 03-31-2014 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Dannydyn

Wish I could heel-toe but the pedals are positioned very awkwardly in our cars.

I think ours need more of a toe-toe. I keep my foot on the brake and just roll it to the right to blip. It's a little hard for larger blips, but I guess it depends on the size of your shoe.

**Dannydyn** · 03-31-2014 09:59 AM

Originally Posted by Daily Driver

Who else finds the "green" suggestion in the 6MT annoying? Is this also a '14 thing? It seems to always want me in 6th.

Hand raised... almost makes you feel like the car is teaching you how/when to shift... I find it overly redundant and useless. The whole 'green' screen/tips/gimmicks in the car are just useless. anyone who buys an S4 knows that gas consumption is probably somewhere near the bottom of his priorities.

Originally Posted by IceAero

I think ours need more of a toe-toe. I keep my foot on the brake and just roll it to the right to blip. It's a little hard for larger blips, but I guess it depends on the size of your shoe.

Interesting, I have to give this a try.

**ECS Tuning-Audi** · 03-31-2014 10:09 AM

As long as I have been a confident driver of a manual transmission I've always matched revs on downshifting. It just makes slowing down that much smoother.

I don't know how anyone can be driving in 4th or something and need to come to a stop and not match revs or double clutch to put it into second gear. Just thinking about it makes me cringe, I almost always double clutch when coming to a stop.

Jason

**TSXCman** · 03-31-2014 10:24 AM

Jason,

Is your mention of double clutching used because of skipping a gear (4 to 2)? I will be honest and say I never double clutch, but I figured these new cars and shift from any gear to any gear, as long as the revs are matched, without causing extra wear.

**IceAero** · 03-31-2014 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by ECS Tuning-Audi

As long as I have been a confident driver of a manual transmission I've always matched revs on downshifting. It just makes slowing down that much smoother.

I don't know how anyone can be driving in 4th or something and need to come to a stop and not match revs or double clutch to put it into second gear. Just thinking about it makes me cringe, I almost always double clutch when coming to a stop.

Jason

I will say, in that situation, I just shift into neutral at idle rpm from 4th gear and that's it. If I think there's a chance I might accelerate before stopping, then I got into 2nd with a blip around 15mph.

**ECS Tuning-Audi** · 03-31-2014 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by TSXCman

Jason,

Is your mention of double clutching used because of skipping a gear (4 to 2)? I will be honest and say I never double clutch, but I figured these new cars and shift from any gear to any gear, as long as the revs are matched, without causing extra wear.

Yes and I find it's just less stress on the transmission (makes shifting not as notchy and force-full. Is it really necessary? Not completely, since new age transmissions have syncromesh gears which allow you to select any gear while still within the rpm range.

You'll also notice less load on the engine. When you just shift from 4th gear down to 2nd say at 40-45 MPH you'll get a violent jerk which will stress motor mounts and probably make any passengers question what just happened ( if they aren't too familiar with a manual transmission vehicle). When you double clutch, (clutch in, take out of gear, clutch, select lower gear, hit gas slightly, release clutch) when you release the clutch you have the ability to feather it out. You'll notice the vehicle will slow down much quicker while also not causing a massive RPM spike.

It's essentially using the engine as a brake. This also can extend your brake pad/rotor life too since you're not just relaying on brakes alone to slow the vehicle.

Jason

**richib86** · 03-31-2014 12:51 PM

I posted it up a while ago here http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post9332188 along with video. It's situational. Above 4k it's an electronic rev match where the computer physically applies the gas. Below 4k it's just your flywheel bringing up the revs. If u care about wear and tear at all I would stay away from doing it below that rpm

**RCSurgeon** · 03-31-2014 01:12 PM

I just got my 2014 S4 and I thought I noticed it rev matching once or twice but never gave much thought to it. I'm prob one of the last few who actually double clutches when I downshift. I guess when I learned how to drive manual as a teenager the person who taught me made me double clutch to downshift always. And I've done it ever since. Should I not be double clutching? It's just so smooth when I downshift that I'd be hesitant to rely on a computer to do the same thing for me

**Dannydyn** · 03-31-2014 01:36 PM

while also on the topic of engine-braking, I don't understand why people coasting into a stop in neutral. I'm not talking about approaching a red light, crawling at 10-20mph into a stop - that's fine. What I'm talking about is exiting off the highway, going downhill off the ramp 40-50mph, taking the car out of gear, and braking all the way from 40-50 to a stop in neutral. Even if you don't downshift/rev-match to slow yourself down, you should at least keep the car in gear. You're putting way too much and unnecessary load on the brakes at those speed, cruising down in neutral.

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-31-2014 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Daily Driver

Who else finds the "green" suggestion in the 6MT annoying? Is this also a '14 thing? It seems to always want me in 6th.

Drives me nuts.......I found a checkbox in Vag-Com something about "Suggested Shift" and i disabled it, but it did not fix the issue

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-31-2014 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by richib86

I posted it up a while ago here http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...=1#post9332188 along with video. It's situational. Above 4k it's an electronic rev match where the computer physically applies the gas. Below 4k it's just your flywheel bringing up the revs. If u care about wear and tear at all I would stay away from doing it below that rpm

So how does the flywheel bringing up revs differ from applying gas to bring up revs? Does it put wear and tear on the flywheel? Sorry I have no knowledge of the inner workings of a MT.

**TSXCman** · 03-31-2014 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dannydyn

while also on the topic of engine-braking, I don't understand why people coasting into a stop in neutral. I'm not talking about approaching a red light, crawling at 10-20mph into a stop - that's fine. What I'm talking about is exiting off the highway, going downhill off the ramp 40-50mph, taking the car out of gear, and braking all the way from 40-50 to a stop in neutral. Even if you don't downshift/rev-match to slow yourself down, you should at least keep the car in gear. You're putting way too much and unnecessary load on the brakes at those speed, cruising down in neutral.

a LOT of people think they are saving gas by coasting out of gear, which is not the case. Whether it is auto or manual.

It takes gas to keep the engine from stalling in neutral. Components are moving because of the idle revs being kept.

It doesn't to take your foot off the gas in gear. Components are still moving because everything is linked to the road and your car is moving.

**RCSurgeon** · 03-31-2014 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dannydyn

while also on the topic of engine-braking, I don't understand why people coasting into a stop in neutral. I'm not talking about approaching a red light, crawling at 10-20mph into a stop - that's fine. What I'm talking about is exiting off the highway, going downhill off the ramp 40-50mph, taking the car out of gear, and braking all the way from 40-50 to a stop in neutral. Even if you don't downshift/rev-match to slow yourself down, you should at least keep the car in gear. You're putting way too much and unnecessary load on the brakes at those speed, cruising down in neutral.

Hey Dannydyn...
Looks like we've got similar taste... Have the exact same as you. Its good shit

**LINDW4LL** · 03-31-2014 02:10 PM

Yeah, fuel injector duty is ZERO when decelerating in gear if I recall correctly.

**richib86** · 03-31-2014 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by NinjaActionJean

So how does the flywheel bringing up revs differ from applying gas to bring up revs? Does it put wear and tear on the flywheel? Sorry I have no knowledge of the inner workings of a MT.

You rely on friction. In the mechanical world friction=wear. When u use the gas to rev match, you literally match the revs to where they should be in the selected gear, by using the gas you bypass the friction stage where the flywheel meets the clutch assembly adding quite a bit of life back to your drivetrain.

**audistealth** · 03-31-2014 03:16 PM

I never double clutch, but I do engine brake a lot and rev match downshifts. For heel toe in this car, find a 90 degree turn, downshift a gear to get revs up a little, on entry apply brakes with the ball of your foot with around 50% pressure, as you steer through roll the outside of your foot to the throttle while braking, and downshift. This is an easy way to practice without high speed.

Everyone should be rev matching. You're killing your drivetrain without it.

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-31-2014 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by richib86

You rely on friction. In the mechanical world friction=wear. When u use the gas to rev match, you literally match the revs to where they should be in the selected gear, by using the gas you bypass the friction stage where the flywheel meets the clutch assembly adding quite a bit of life back to your drivetrain.

So, are you saying that the computer has 2 methods to rev match? One being applying gas(Above 4K) and one being using the flywheel(Below 4K)? If so, how do you know this?(Sorry, not trying to be a douchebag, just trying to understand whats happening)

Or are you saying that there is no rev matching below 4K at all and its just like any other manual where the revs come up once you release the clutch? Because I can assure you that somehow my car revs up the engine before i hit the friction point on the clutch, and this happens all the way down to 2000 RPM and below.

**TSXCman** · 03-31-2014 03:44 PM

The flywheel mention is not computer related. It is the typical manual transmission behavior, like you say at first in your second paragraph.

You are saying that you experience rev matching beyond any 4K limit.

**tadhgbrosnan** · 03-31-2014 03:50 PM

When computer-generated rev matching was introduced in modern automatics I pronounced it the lamest thing ever built into a performance car. Well, that is no longer the case. Nope...that distinction now belongs to traditional manual/three pedal cars with computer-generated rev matching.

What. The. Fuck.

It ain't "cool" at all, it's weak. Learn how to do it yourself and you'll enjoy driving your car that much more. I truly despise the movement towards cars that do everything for you.

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-31-2014 04:22 PM

LOL!!!! Been driving manuals all my life and had no idea some of you were so passionate about this whole rev matching thing.

I just did a little reminiscing about my prev cars that I bagged the shit out of.

Had a 91 civic that I bought brand new, that took an absolute beating......that tachometer bounced up and down off the limiter more than a whores drawers lol, put 280,000 km on that thing and drove it to the dump with the original clutch still working fine.
97 civic....150,000k no clutch issues
2001 Civic, 120K No Clutch issues
2006 Mazda 6 V6, 160K No Clutch issues
2008 Subaru Legacy Spec B, 130K No Clutch issues

Now my Audi.

I can't help but think that u guys are blowing this out of proportion......What % of MT drivers rev match? 5%? if that........come on.

Since i'm taking such a shit kicking on this thread, I am going to make an effort to learn. So far today I tried it about 10 times and I got to say that I suck, The clutch is taking more of a beating than if I did nothing thats for sure. Maybe I should find a '91 civic for 300$ to try this on lol

**audistealth** · 03-31-2014 04:31 PM

Even if you suck at it, the shock load is lower.

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-31-2014 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by TSXCman

You are saying that you experience rev matching beyond any 4K limit.

Yes 100% for sure. my revs increase within 1/2 inch of my clutch coming off the floor even at 2000RPM. Way before friction point ~ 3inches

I can also hold that 1/2 inch off the floor and the rpms shoot up, hold for a second, then drop back to idle.

**NinjaActionJean** · 03-31-2014 04:34 PM

Originally Posted by audistealth

Even if you suck at it, the shock load is lower.

OK, if you say so.......i'll keep trying........

Soooo, I assume if your not perfect at rev matching, the goal should be to miss low rather than miss high right?

Why do i get the feeling this is going to be my 1st car with clutch issues lol

**audistealth** · 03-31-2014 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by NinjaActionJean

OK, if you say so.......i'll keep trying........

Soooo, I assume if your not perfect at rev matching, the goal should be to miss low rather than miss high right?

Why do i get the feeling this is going to be my 1st car with clutch issues lol

It doesn't matter which direction you miss, just try to minimize the delta.