Am I the only one not happy about the Koni FSD/Eibach suspension?

[swoardrider]

My belief as to why Koni's are either loved or hated has to do with their valving. Peeps like myself that are used to digressive valving from manufacturers like Ohlins and Bilstein, hate the linear valving of the Konis. This is because Konis tend to be comfortable on low speeds, but dampen terrible at high speeds. This was my experience when going from Konis to Ohlins.

Couple of good reads:

From the Saab forums - But the reason I'm thinking of switching is that I'm pretty certain the Konis have a linear compression rate. Meaning that the faster you try to compress the shock, the stiffer it becomes. On an x/y graph with x being the speed of the shock movement and y being the resistance provided by the shock, you pretty much get a straight line at about a 45 degree angle up and to the right. The problem is that to get enough compression damping for good handling at slow shock speeds (the kind involved in turning and stopping), you have to live with too much damping on very quick shock movements, like potholes and expansion joints. As I understand it, one of the bilsteins big selling points is that they have a digressive compression rate. So on an x/y graph, the line initially goes up at an angle but then levels off towards horizontal. There is a bleed off valve in the Bilsteins so that you get about the same compression damping force on very fast shock movements as you do on slower movements. So in theory you get the best of both worlds - good stiffness on slow movements (handling) but not excessive stiffness on the fast movements (potholes).

From the Bimmer forums - Bilsteins are notorious for their sharp turn-in characteristics (acheived by digressive valving, but I digress), but that sharp turn-in comes at the price of transmitting small bumps right into chassis and steering. Large bumps they deal with just fine (again, due to the digressive valving), but some people don't like the overall "roughness" of them, and it depends A LOT on what kind of roads you normally drive on. (my experience has been that Bilsteins hate washboard roads) If you want to add some precision to an otherwise stock suspension, and can tolerate a little more ride harshness, go with Bilsteins.

Konis are really good shocks, too. And with their adjustability, YOU get to decide just how harsh you want them to be. Even at full soft, they're going to offer way better control than generic stock shocks. Full still is usually enough to shake your fillings loose. But, again... you get to decide where on that curve you want to be.

To get just a little deeper, Koni Sport shocks allow you to adjust the shock REBOUND damping, and NOT the COMPRESSION damping. Koni's don't have the sharp low-speed compression damping of a Bilstein. (low-speed referring to shock shaft speed, as in what the shock sees with steering inputs) So, in general, a Bilstein will resist body roll when you initiate a turn by resisting compression of the suspension on the outside tires, whereas a Koni on full stiff might be having the same sort of effect (controlling body roll) by resisting the EXTENSION of the inside suspension.

[haiger1110]

This is what i need.... My front is higher than the back... doesnt look balance like yours..

I think the ride is not bad. However, my old suspension is non-sport oem so maybe anything is better than that.

How she sits now...HnR with Bilsteins.

25F
25.125R

Looks like the front went up about 1/4 to 5/16 with the switch from OEM with B5 perches to the Bilsteins.

[mcpcartier]

My belief as to why Koni's are either loved or hated has to do with their valving. Peeps like myself that are used to digressive valving from manufacturers like Ohlins and Bilstein, hate the linear valving of the Konis. This is because Konis tend to be comfortable on low speeds, but dampen terrible at high speeds. This was my experience when going from Konis to Ohlins.

Couple of good reads:

From the Saab forums - But the reason I'm thinking of switching is that I'm pretty certain the Konis have a linear compression rate. Meaning that the faster you try to compress the shock, the stiffer it becomes. On an x/y graph with x being the speed of the shock movement and y being the resistance provided by the shock, you pretty much get a straight line at about a 45 degree angle up and to the right. The problem is that to get enough compression damping for good handling at slow shock speeds (the kind involved in turning and stopping), you have to live with too much damping on very quick shock movements, like potholes and expansion joints. As I understand it, one of the bilsteins big selling points is that they have a digressive compression rate. So on an x/y graph, the line initially goes up at an angle but then levels off towards horizontal. There is a bleed off valve in the Bilsteins so that you get about the same compression damping force on very fast shock movements as you do on slower movements. So in theory you get the best of both worlds - good stiffness on slow movements (handling) but not excessive stiffness on the fast movements (potholes).

From the Bimmer forums - Bilsteins are notorious for their sharp turn-in characteristics (acheived by digressive valving, but I digress), but that sharp turn-in comes at the price of transmitting small bumps right into chassis and steering. Large bumps they deal with just fine (again, due to the digressive valving), but some people don't like the overall "roughness" of them, and it depends A LOT on what kind of roads you normally drive on. (my experience has been that Bilsteins hate washboard roads) If you want to add some precision to an otherwise stock suspension, and can tolerate a little more ride harshness, go with Bilsteins.

Konis are really good shocks, too. And with their adjustability, YOU get to decide just how harsh you want them to be. Even at full soft, they're going to offer way better control than generic stock shocks. Full still is usually enough to shake your fillings loose. But, again... you get to decide where on that curve you want to be.

To get just a little deeper, Koni Sport shocks allow you to adjust the shock REBOUND damping, and NOT the COMPRESSION damping. Koni's don't have the sharp low-speed compression damping of a Bilstein. (low-speed referring to shock shaft speed, as in what the shock sees with steering inputs) So, in general, a Bilstein will resist body roll when you initiate a turn by resisting compression of the suspension on the outside tires, whereas a Koni on full stiff might be having the same sort of effect (controlling body roll) by resisting the EXTENSION of the inside suspension.

Good read....thanks for taking the time to post

[jamezz23]

I'm looking into purchasing some coilovers just reading on what all I need. What camber kit/adjustable control arms is everyone running? I'm not looking to stance my car either just a nice drop to get rid of the ugly gap

[milk]

Looks good mcpcartier... I'm more and more tempted to go this route instead of Koni yellows...

[mr larry]

Just to let you guys know.... since you like the drop from the Eibach springs, Bilstein offers a B12 kit which is their sport shocks paired with the Eibach springs.

Take care

Any idea what p/n the shocks are? (for those who already have the Eibach springs)

[jnm]

@swoardrider great read! Thanks for sharing.


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[MHSFBay]

My belief as to why Koni's are either loved or hated has to do with their valving. Peeps like myself that are used to digressive valving from manufacturers like Ohlins and Bilstein, hate the linear valving of the Konis. This is because Konis tend to be comfortable on low speeds, but dampen terrible at high speeds. This was my experience when going from Konis to Ohlins.

Couple of good reads:

From the Saab forums - But the reason I'm thinking of switching is that I'm pretty certain the Konis have a linear compression rate. Meaning that the faster you try to compress the shock, the stiffer it becomes. On an x/y graph with x being the speed of the shock movement and y being the resistance provided by the shock, you pretty much get a straight line at about a 45 degree angle up and to the right. The problem is that to get enough compression damping for good handling at slow shock speeds (the kind involved in turning and stopping), you have to live with too much damping on very quick shock movements, like potholes and expansion joints. As I understand it, one of the bilsteins big selling points is that they have a digressive compression rate. So on an x/y graph, the line initially goes up at an angle but then levels off towards horizontal. There is a bleed off valve in the Bilsteins so that you get about the same compression damping force on very fast shock movements as you do on slower movements. So in theory you get the best of both worlds - good stiffness on slow movements (handling) but not excessive stiffness on the fast movements (potholes).

From the Bimmer forums - Bilsteins are notorious for their sharp turn-in characteristics (acheived by digressive valving, but I digress), but that sharp turn-in comes at the price of transmitting small bumps right into chassis and steering. Large bumps they deal with just fine (again, due to the digressive valving), but some people don't like the overall "roughness" of them, and it depends A LOT on what kind of roads you normally drive on. (my experience has been that Bilsteins hate washboard roads) If you want to add some precision to an otherwise stock suspension, and can tolerate a little more ride harshness, go with Bilsteins.

Konis are really good shocks, too. And with their adjustability, YOU get to decide just how harsh you want them to be. Even at full soft, they're going to offer way better control than generic stock shocks. Full still is usually enough to shake your fillings loose. But, again... you get to decide where on that curve you want to be.

To get just a little deeper, Koni Sport shocks allow you to adjust the shock REBOUND damping, and NOT the COMPRESSION damping. Koni's don't have the sharp low-speed compression damping of a Bilstein. (low-speed referring to shock shaft speed, as in what the shock sees with steering inputs) So, in general, a Bilstein will resist body roll when you initiate a turn by resisting compression of the suspension on the outside tires, whereas a Koni on full stiff might be having the same sort of effect (controlling body roll) by resisting the EXTENSION of the inside suspension.

Great summation! Gad! I have been reading this string on-and-on, and I think we finally got to the bottom of this , shock-wise.

Now, which coil-over goes best with each, (on the B7 , of course)?


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[08 classic]

Sorry man, you have to check with a vendor since there are variables ( Quattro / FWD, 3.2, OR 2.OT ) and each might be a different part #.
Bilstein B12 kit were designed with the Eibach springs, and their sport shocks, so if I were you just buy the sport shocks.

[fly300kts]

Great summation! Gad! I have been reading this string on-and-on, and I think we finally got to the bottom of this , shock-wise.

Now, which coil-over goes best with each, (on the B7 , of course)?


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Koni's

Phil

[jnm]

Koni's

Phil

I feel like I read on a post a while back about what control arms to get with coils. What are you running again?

[swoardrider]

Great summation! Gad! I have been reading this string on-and-on, and I think we finally got to the bottom of this , shock-wise.

Now, which coil-over goes best with each, (on the B7 , of course)?


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Myself, I wouldn't do anything less than the Bilstein PSS or the Stasis Challenge kit with the fixed Ohlins. But again, its all about personal feeling, what roads you travel on, and price. Lots of people won't wanna spend $1500-$2500 on a kit. Personally I'd rather spend my money on the suspension than go fast parts, as the suspension you have to live with every second you are in the car. Half the time I'm sitting in traffic here in the Bay Area, so what good is a bunch of HP if you can't use it?? I chose to spend the money on suspension before the go fast parts.

I see you are in the city, which of course has the shittiest roads and trolly tracks on the West Coast. Unless you are doing track days, you may like the feel of a softer sprung coil over kit with linear valving, so you don't have to feel every little piece of road at low speeds, vs. a digressive valved kit. Just to give you an example, when I'm doing 80+ mph on say 280 or Hwy 1, I'm in love with my Ohlins Motorsports (double digressive valving), but once I get into the heart of the city, I'm cursing them cuz I feel every little pebble and man hole cover on the SF streets doing 20mph.


Here is a cool little chart that shows the different types of valving in shock technology:

[IMG][/IMG]

[esm]

Good posts here on the different shock types. Page 2 is gold. Thanks.

[privy]

Anyone have experience with koni coilovers on an avant? Almost bought some but need more insight. Been reading a lot that ST's prob need hypercos in the rear to handle extra weight or something?

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[jnm]

Anyone have experience with koni coilovers on an avant? Almost bought some but need more insight. Been reading a lot that ST's prob need hypercos in the rear to handle extra weight or something?

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I have been wondering the same. I just came across this review of Vogtland coils. He had Stasis SS (Same as Koni Coils) before and said he had issues with the rear sagging. I don't really want to mix and match springs so I might opt for an Avant specific coil instead.. Maybe even shell out the 2k for pss9's.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...initial-review

[Seinsmeld13]

I have Koni FSD's with Eibach springs on my 2007 GTI. They have been on since sometime in 2007. I've put on 259,000 km on this car. Last week a spring snapped. Upon inspection we discovered one of the dampers was leaking. I took the car in to where the items were bought with my invoices. I was told Koni will replace only 1 damper but Eibach would send me 4 new springs. Only downfall is I have to pay for the install and alignment. That's a hell of a lot better than paying for these items a second time. The car looks much better with this install and certainly lasts a hell of a long time.I would buy these again.

My car is now sitting waiting for a FSD damper to arrive. Koni is sending one to replace the failed damper. Eibach however is sending me 4 new springs to replace as one of the springs rusted/craked. I'll be happy to get my car back on the road. Even with this failure I recommend the FSD/Eibach set up. Carry on camping boys.