Warm start rattle solved on my car!

[Datadatum]

So what was the specific failure mode? You said it was stuck open -- did something break/fail/pop loose? Just curious how the part operates and why it would fail in a way that actually prevents the oil flow.

So, the OP showed a picture that it stuck open. This means that the spring loaded valve (which opens when the oil is under pressure) failed open. The fail-open scenario means that the head drains of oil, and the car isn't "primed" with oil at start-up.

OP - can you take apart the failed valve to answer the question on how it failed?

[B00sted20VUSP]

Since they weren't stuck open just curious if you tried pushing on the plunger to see if it felt though to move or sticky?

Pushed on both of them, they moved freely, but the spring tension felt a little tighter in the new ones.

[p3u]

So replace these check valves and the results are that it prevents oil pressure from dropping off in the top of the engine where the adjusters are so that the tension on the chains is maintained resulting in no chain play rattling on the plastic guides? Have you noticed that changing these check valves has also reduced the cold start rattle at all??

My car would get cold start rattle maybe once a week or if it was below freezing. SO far, though its been a short period of time, no rattle on cold start and it's been in the 20's this week.

It would be just incredible if this would fix our timing problems! I'm not assuming anything yet, but could you imagine if a fairly straight forward DIY job that takes 3-4 hours could replace a multi thousand $ job of removing the engine and replacing the shit timing components in our cars!

We can only hope this is a big help. It still doesn't mean that the timing components can't fail without these being bad, but again, the check valves may be the primary cause. Time will tell

[p3u]

So, the OP showed a picture that it stuck open. This means that the spring loaded valve (which opens when the oil is under pressure) failed open. The fail-open scenario means that the head drains of oil, and the car isn't "primed" with oil at start-up.

OP - can you take apart the failed valve to answer the question on how it failed?

I've actually bee trying to tear mine apart without destroying it lol. If I can figure out a way I sure will.

[p3u]

Pushed on both of them, they moved freely, but the spring tension felt a little tighter in the new ones.

Hmmm, makes me wonder as the spring gets weaker the hot expanded oil could be putting enough pressure on the valve to seep back out of the head after the engine has been stopped. I'm just making an "educated" guess.

O ring look ok on the valve housing and plunger?

[Dirtracer603]

Awesome job OP. I was always curious of the design of the lubrication system. I see that this failed check valve can aid 'rattle' on a motor, with or without faulty tensioners, warm or cold. Definitely a simple and low cost measure that's definitely worth investing in.

[B00sted20VUSP]

Hmmm, makes me wonder as the spring gets weaker the hot expanded oil could be putting enough pressure on the valve to seep back out of the head after the engine has been stopped. I'm just making an "educated" guess.

O ring look ok on the valve housing and plunger?

Yea that makes sense. The o-ring looked ok. One thing i noticed is all the paint audi used on that valley cover gasket was peeling off on the old one in big flakes, cant believe they did that. Those flakes can easily clog up an oilpickup tube...

[dparm]

Yea that makes sense. The o-ring looked ok. One thing i noticed is all the paint audi used on that valley cover gasket was peeling off on the old one in big flakes, cant believe they did that. Those flakes can easily clog up an oilpickup tube...

Common problem on lots of cars even outside of the S4.

[p3u]

Yea that makes sense. The o-ring looked ok. One thing i noticed is all the paint audi used on that valley cover gasket was peeling off on the old one in big flakes, cant believe they did that. Those flakes can easily clog up an oilpickup tube...

Same on my VC's. Perhaps the source of the check valve failure is paint flakes from either of those parts.

[B00sted20VUSP]

Just spoke with Dolphinb6s4 and he said his car has not rattled since the repair we did last nite...fingers crossed I'm thinking of doing this to my car as a PM...and gives me a reason for JHM spacers I have 69k on my car and no rattles at all.

[R&Cs4]

Just ordered all of the parts for this! FYI for anyone else doing this, www.bullstuff.com (a Lambo parts site) has the valves and nozzle for about half the price of anywhere else I looked.

[B00sted20VUSP]

Just ordered all of the parts for this! FYI for anyone else doing this, www.bullstuff.com (a Lambo parts site) has the valves and nozzle for about half the price of anywhere else I looked.

Nice! Thanks for the parts info!

[p3u]

Just ordered all of the parts for this! FYI for anyone else doing this, www.bullstuff.com (a Lambo parts site) has the valves and nozzle for about half the price of anywhere else I looked.

I actually found that site as well, but was being overly cautious to ensure the parts were correct so stuck with carson. If they pan out good stuff!

[crc]

Yea that makes sense. The o-ring looked ok. One thing i noticed is all the paint audi used on that valley cover gasket was peeling off on the old one in big flakes, cant believe they did that. Those flakes can easily clog up an oilpickup tube...

I've attached some photos of the original job on mine. The valley pan gasket is a piece of metal sandwiched between two pieces of thin plastic. The plastic looked to have gone hard over time - clearly visible are the flakes in this picture.

The funny thing is that the main reason we pulled mine apart was to fix a significant valley pan leak. At the time I thought I'd look at the check valves as I had read that they were a common problem on the B5 S4 2.7TT's. I then researched the oil flow diagram from the RS4 FSI study guide and found the tensioners keep tension only because of the check valves. Another member here indicated that they are a ratchet type tensioner though so maybe it's not the ultimate solution but for the moment it certainly fixed mine.

Oil in valley pan before:



After clean up:



New oil filter housing O rings installed - note the 'Double D' is the pressure side (one half of the D feeds the front check valve, one the other half) and the single O is the pick up side (from the sump):



Old valley pan gasket cracks! Clear why there was a leak...



And finally...valley pan removed and cleaned. The two check valves have the crosses on top. The valley pan itself acts as an oil distribution plate - it delivers oil to the front check valve (RHS head) via the clearly visible moulded pipe section (see two photos prior). The back check valve has a distribution area that feeds both the LHS head and the chain tensioners.



Oh and one more thing - for anyone doing the job - Bentley says torque down the valley pan to 10NM. This leaked on us straight away as soon as the system was pressurised (our torque wrench isn't good at low settings). Give it 20NM. We had to redo the whole job.

Good luck

[IslandHydro]

Awesome job OP. I was always curious of the design of the lubrication system. I see that this failed check valve can aid 'rattle' on a motor, with or without faulty tensioners, warm or cold. Definitely a simple and low cost measure that's definitely worth investing in.

Despite the arguments of some, I've always thought that the rattle could lead to timing chain guide failure, which then leads to larger issues. I'd been leaning toward an accusump as a preventative measure, but this would be much more simple and clean!

[Quattro_2.7tt]

Hmmm I think I'm going to do this on mine, I get an occational warm start rattle but its pretty quiet, just annoying. Thanks for the info!

[GOR720]

I'm going to try this in my car, seems logical that this would be the cause of the rattle. Thanks for the info and part numbers ill post my result as soon as I get it done.

[dmaxben]

hmmm interesting!

Ive had my JHM intake manifold spacers sitting on the shelf for a couple months with no time to install them...glad I waited and saw this thread, might as well replace these oil check valves while I have it all apart...

[Dirtracer603]

Despite the arguments of some, I've always thought that the rattle could lead to timing chain guide failure, which then leads to larger issues. I'd been leaning toward an accusump as a preventative measure, but this would be much more simple and clean!

It's been proven that 'rattle' has caused guide failure, the guides crack when the chain slaps against them. I would perform this check valve replacement and if the start up rattle persists then I would consider the Accusump. I personally believe that this check valve replacement could solve many peoples rattle problems. I imagine we will find out in time..

[Hyde]

This appears to pretty big news for our forum. I just ordered JHM intake manifold spacers plus with these parts to go along with some maintenance items I'm having done this coming weekend. I hope everything arrives in time.

Thank you, p3u and crc!

[httuner]

I wish you would've discovered this sooner!! I just replaced my valley pan gasket a couple of weeks ago and I broke so many little plastic things here and there. I could've replaced those things, I didn't know how to get them out lol, now I know. Thanks, time to go back and take the intake manifold off again.

DO get some JHM Pintle caps guys, the OEM ones on the injectors break so easily.

[SacAudi]

can anyone ball park the overall cost the the parts and where you are ordering from?

I am very interested I get 1.5 seconds cold, and 1.5 seconds rattle warm pretty much anything past 5 minutes... 145k, I feel like i am on borrowed time, but the car runs so damn good otherwise...

[TexS4]

Fantastic thread. Thanks for all the pictures and part numbers. I shared this with my shop and its something we're going to tackle together on a weekend so i'll make sure and put pics of mine back in this thread. I'm really hoping to find the same exact thing as I get rattle right at startup.

[R&Cs4]

can anyone ball park the overall cost the the parts and where you are ordering from?

I am very interested I get 1.5 seconds cold, and 1.5 seconds rattle warm pretty much anything past 5 minutes... 145k, I feel like i am on borrowed time, but the car runs so damn good otherwise...

Total cost was about $150 for the parts. Ordered from www.bullstuff.com and ECS.

[dolphin B6 S4]

3rd night after doing this service, still haven't heard any rattle be it warm or cold starts. I'm so happy that my new timing components aren't taking a beating any more!

[B00sted20VUSP]

3rd night after doing this service, still haven't heard any rattle be it warm or cold starts. I'm so happy that my new timing components aren't taking a beating any more!

Thats awesome man! Now get that exhaust so we can throw that on

[p3u]

3rd night after doing this service, still haven't heard any rattle be it warm or cold starts. I'm so happy that my new timing components aren't taking a beating any more!

Can I get a hell yeah?!

I'm going to edit the original post to have a list of members who have performed this job and a success or fail from it.

[Slow4]

I've attached some photos of the original job on mine. The valley pan gasket is a piece of metal sandwiched between two pieces of thin plastic. The plastic looked to have gone hard over time - clearly visible are the flakes in this picture.

The funny thing is that the main reason we pulled mine apart was to fix a significant valley pan leak. At the time I thought I'd look at the check valves as I had read that they were a common problem on the B5 S4 2.7TT's. I then researched the oil flow diagram from the RS4 FSI study guide and found the tensioners keep tension only because of the check valves. Another member here indicated that they are a ratchet type tensioner though so maybe it's not the ultimate solution but for the moment it certainly fixed mine.

Oil in valley pan before:

[IMG]https://googledrive.com/host/0B9sdzz5aMvAoYkVQVFhYN0Q2WlU/IMG_0466.jpg[/I

After clean up:

[IMG]https://googledrive.com/host/0B9sdzz5aMvAoYkVQVFhYN0Q2WlU/IMG_0467%20copy.jpg[/I

New oil filter housing O rings installed - note the 'Double D' is the pressure side (one half of the D feeds the front check valve, one the other half) and the single O is the pick up side (from the sump):

[IMG]https://googledrive.com/host/0B9sdzz5aMvAoYkVQVFhYN0Q2WlU/IMG_0472.jpg[/

Old valley pan gasket cracks! Clear why there was a leak...

[IMG]https://googledrive.com/host/0B9sdzz5aMvAoYkVQVFhYN0Q2WlU/IMG_0473.jpg[/I

And finally...valley pan removed and cleaned. The two check valves have the crosses on top. The valley pan itself acts as an oil distribution plate - it delivers oil to the front check valve (RHS head) via the clearly visible moulded pipe section (see two photos prior). The back check valve has a distribution area that feeds both the LHS head and the chain tensioners.

[IMG]https://googledrive.com/host/0B9sdzz5aMvAoYkVQVFhYN0Q2WlU/IMG_0474.jpg[/I

Oh and one more thing - for anyone doing the job - Bentley says torque down the valley pan to 10NM. This leaked on us straight away as soon as the system was pressurised (our torque wrench isn't good at low settings). Give it 20NM. We had to redo the whole job.

Good luck

Is there anyway you (or P3U) can re-write this and submit it to one of the mods as a DIY-thread so it doesn't get lost in the forum? From what I've read so far, it looks to be something I'd like to do as a preventative measure to prolong the timing issues.

[B00sted20VUSP]

Can I get a hell yeah?!

I'm going to edit the original post to have a list of members who have performed this job and a success or fail from it.

That would be great!

[Hyde]

You can add me to the list! I have the parts on order to go along with other maintenance this weekend.

[jimichunga]

Total cost was about $150 for the parts. Ordered from www.bullstuff.com and ECS.

I'm just seeing the valves and nozzle on this site but no gasket or o rings.

They are about $50 cheaper than genuineaudiparts.com, tho so big ups!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

[p3u]

I'm just seeing the valves and nozzle on this site but no gasket or o rings.

They are about $50 cheaper than genuineaudiparts.com, tho so big ups!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

O rings are included with the parts.

[p3u]

Is there anyway you (or P3U) can re-write this and submit it to one of the mods as a DIY-thread so it doesn't get lost in the forum? From what I've read so far, it looks to be something I'd like to do as a preventative measure to prolong the timing issues.

Done

[jimichunga]

For the Oil Filter Housing as well?

2 x Oil check valves - 079103175C
1 x Oil spray jet - 079115540A
1 x Valley pan gasket - 079103161D
1 x Oil filter housing O ring (double D) - 079115111A
1 x Oil filter housing O ring (single O) - N90959701

Thanks again for this!!

[dolphin B6 S4]

Thats awesome man! Now get that exhaust so we can throw that on

Waiting on that UPS truck! You feeling better?

[dolphin B6 S4]

Can I get a hell yeah?!

I'm going to edit the original post to have a list of members who have performed this job and a success or fail from it.

HELL YEAH! This almost needs to be sticky'd

[crc]

Here is the driver side head check valve. Hmmmmm

Got to say really happy that it worked out p3u!

This picture is fantastic! Worth noting that mine didn't come out stuck like this, but the work still resolved the start up rattle.

I just want to clarify cost on this fix however... it's not about $150. It's closer to $200 after the case of beer required whilst you do the work...

[GOR720]

Got to say really happy that it worked out p3u!

This picture is fantastic! Worth noting that mine didn't come out stuck like this, but the work still resolved the start up rattle.

I just want to clarify cost on this fix however... it's not about $150. It's closer to $200 after the case of beer required whilst you do the work...

That is a diy must hahaha

[jmcS4]

That's an expensive case of beer lol

[QIKRNU]

That's an expensive case of beer lol

Life's too short to drink cheap beer!!