3D Printing the Timing Chain Guide Tensioners

[SlightlySlizzed]

I know those plastic pieces of shit are not actually $800 at the least. I was wondering if anyone has tried this at all or even thought about it. Pretty sure i'm going to need this service soon. I'm having all the signs of it possibly, or I just need new plugs and coil packs.

Oh also I tweeted Audi about the plastic tensioners and they tweeted me back wanting me to call them haha.

[cdub88]

Interesting idea.

I'd be hesitant to replace the OEM plastic guides with 3D printed plastic. I've never worked with 3d printed material, so I don't know how strong they would be. I like the thought of this though...

I'm wondering why they're even plastic in the first place, and instead, why not a chunk of aluminum?

[tekkie]

with all the labor to do the job I wouldnt be skimping on some unknown solution myself ;) the problem is you have no way to know if its better or not aside from testing it and by then its far to late

[rharris]

Yes, I've thought about doing this more than once, but on a different vehicle. My brother owns an E28. The engine components are expensive and hard to find.

[SlightlySlizzed]

Interesting idea.

I'd be hesitant to replace the OEM plastic guides with 3D printed plastic. I've never worked with 3d printed material, so I don't know how strong they would be. I like the thought of this though...

I'm wondering why they're even plastic in the first place, and instead, why not a chunk of aluminum?

Well I have a certified BMW tech friend that could do it on the cheap; BMW's have the same issues with timing chains. Of course i'd want to get something close or even better quality to the plastic already used but just figured i'd ask the forums if anyone has thought of it. Because I feel like once someone did it it'd be awesome for the community suffering from this manufacture flaw. There are also metal 3d printers too but i'm guessing the metal on metal is probably not good for the chains.

[SlightlySlizzed]

with all the labor to do the job I wouldnt be skimping on some unknown solution myself ;) the problem is you have no way to know if its better or not aside from testing it and by then its far to late

Of course, but that's why i'm asking. The only way these companies have the parts are from 3D printers. So if there were information on what kind of material to use it'd be perfect.

[emcaha]

I'm an engineer with a plastic injection molding company and can tell you that I would not feel comfortable using 3D printed guides.

3D printing has come very far over the years but there are still several limitations that would not work for this application. First and foremost you'd have to be certain that the 3D printer uses the exact same plastic resin as the stock components. You also have to worry about what kind of tolerance is required and the surface finish of the final part, 3D printing has tiny steps in it so you'd most likely have to do some secondary sanding/polishing before installing. The plastic itself also goes through much more stress with a 3D printer than it would with a regular application for the stock guides. I'm assuming it is injection molded as most plastics these days, our company makes both medical and automotive parts so I think that would be the case.

I'd be interested in making a more permanent solution buy building the guides out of metal with some kind of roller bearings for the chains. That gets into all kinds of issues with possible damage to the chains, etc. but it's another thought that you might want to look into if you're serious about looking for alternate solutions.

[65vetteC6]

Well I have a certified BMW tech friend that could do it on the cheap; BMW's have the same issues with timing chains. Of course i'd want to get something close or even better quality to the plastic already used but just figured i'd ask the forums if anyone has thought of it. Because I feel like once someone did it it'd be awesome for the community suffering from this manufacture flaw. There are also metal 3d printers too but i'm guessing the metal on metal is probably not good for the chains.

They use plastic because of a lower friction and metal on metal is no good. Most people on this forum do not have access to a 3d printer of high enough quality to attempt something like this. Not to mention the time to out the parts into CAD and then print each one is not really worth it. There is a lot more then developing a cad model and just printing it. Depends on plastic material, type of 3D printer, printer resolution not to mention being a genuine pig

Personally I think the best solution would be an aluminum/nylon hybrid solution. Aluminum structure with a replaceable nylon cover of sorts. This will eliminate the issue with the guides cracking.

[emcaha]

Hell, why not just buy some plastic stock and have someone CNC the guides. Most of the same concerns as stated about would apply but it's another route you could look into.

[SlightlySlizzed]

I'm an engineer with a plastic injection molding company and can tell you that I would not feel comfortable using 3D printed guides.

3D printing has come very far over the years but there are still several limitations that would not work for this application. First and foremost you'd have to be certain that the 3D printer uses the exact same plastic resin as the stock components. You also have to worry about what kind of tolerance is required and the surface finish of the final part, 3D printing has tiny steps in it so you'd most likely have to do some secondary sanding/polishing before installing. The plastic itself also goes through much more stress with a 3D printer than it would with a regular application for the stock guides. I'm assuming it is injection molded as most plastics these days, our company makes both medical and automotive parts so I think that would be the case.

I'd be interested in making a more permanent solution buy building the guides out of metal with some kind of roller bearings for the chains. That gets into all kinds of issues with possible damage to the chains, etc. but it's another thought that you might want to look into if you're serious about looking for alternate solutions.

Thanks for the information. Wouldn't you say that these 3rd party resellers like JHM and ECS are more than likely 3D printing the parts to sell? I don't see it being cost efficient for such a mass parts store to go through all those steps to print the guides and tensioners for such a small market. I'm sure it's outsourced by a company but I just wonder.


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[SlightlySlizzed]

with all the labor to do the job I wouldnt be skimping on some unknown solution myself ;) the problem is you have no way to know if its better or not aside from testing it and by then its far to late

I wouldn't want to skimp but hell if someone figured it out that would be a money maker and game changer.


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[BCsniper]

I know those plastic pieces of shit are not actually $800 at the least.

where exactly did you get the idea that they cost this much?

079109510E — Tensioner Chain Guide [Bank 1]- $35
079109514B — Chain Guide [Bank 1] $30
079109513C — Chain Guide [Bank 2]- $35
079109469AD — Center Upper Chain Guide- $32
079109469AA — Left Lower Chain Guide- $32
079109510F — Left Lower Chain Guide- $30

The reason why doing a timing rebuild is so expensive is pretty much because of all of the parts besides the actual plastic/nylon guides themselves. The adjusters themselves are pretty much $1k for each side. These pieces are what we need to have alternatives sources for.........and that time may be coming. JHM once again is trying to step up where other companies haven't. Hopefully there will soon be a timing kit on the market for about half of the cost of OEM

[tekkie]

I wouldn't want to skimp but hell if someone figured it out that would be a money maker and game changer.


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I think the market is pretty small so I dont see this being much of a money maker honestly, most people are not going to be willing to take the risk on this. The basic JHM kit is only 850 bucks and includes more than just the plastic guides so you would still have to buy those pieces so you would save what a few hundred bucks? your going to pay 2000+ in labor so saving a few hundred bucks is peanuts imo ;)

if someone makes them and they are still working in 10 years I still wouldnt use it

[tekkie]

where exactly did you get the idea that they cost this much?



The reason why doing a timing rebuild is so expensive is pretty much because of all of the parts besides the actual plastic/nylon guides themselves. The adjusters themselves are pretty much $1k for each side. These pieces are what we need to have alternatives sources for.........and that time may be coming. JHM once again is trying to step up where other companies haven't. Hopefully there will soon be a timing kit on the market for about half of the cost of OEM

there you go, even if you made them for free you save 160 bucks :) ... a new engine is how much? cost vs reward = forget it ;)

[Dirtracer603]

It's my belief that the plastic guides break upon startup because of the faulty tensioners losing their sealing abilities as they age. Until the tensioners pump up, the timing chains slap against the guides. If the car didn't have tensioner issues I doubt we would see guide failures.

[emcaha]

Thanks for the information. Wouldn't you say that these 3rd party resellers like JHM and ECS are more than likely 3D printing the parts to sell? I don't see it being cost efficient for such a mass parts store to go through all those steps to print the guides and tensioners for such a small market. I'm sure it's outsourced by a company but I just wonder.


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I'm not about to comment for Jhm, ecs, or any other parts supplier on how they produce/source their parts.

That being said, I'd be very surprised if Jhm (or anyone else) is making these in house. For the price of a 3D printer with the quality to be able to make these to OEM standards it would be much cheaper to build a mold and have the parts produced on the outside. 3D printing is not a generally accepted method of producing production parts yet and is definitely not for the automotive industry for critical parts such as this. You're also missing the key factor of having a 3D model to be able to do any of this in the first place. Models are worth their weight in gold, silver, and platinum (figuratively of course) combined in the plastics industry and they would have to produce it on their own. There's also the issue of liability and possible copyright/patent legal issues.

Edit: not trying to pile it on or anything but there is WAY much more than you'd probably expect that goes into making any plastic part.

[65vetteC6]

I'm not about to comment for Jhm, ecs, or any other parts supplier on how they produce/source their parts.

That being said, I'd be very surprised if Jhm (or anyone else) is making these in house. For the price of a 3D printer with the quality to be able to make these to OEM standards it would be much cheaper to build a mold and have the parts produced on the outside. 3D printing is not a generally accepted method of producing production parts yet and is definitely not for the automotive industry for critical parts such as this. You're also missing the key factor of having a 3D model to be able to do any of this in the first place. Models are worth their weight in gold, silver, and platinum (figuratively of course) combined in the plastics industry and they would have to produce it on their own. There's also the issue of liability and possible copyright/patent legal issues.

Edit: not trying to pile it on or anything but there is WAY much more than you'd probably expect that goes into making any plastic part.

This, I think OP is underestimating or really doesn't have a good idea on 3D printing and the costs/time associated with it. I would highly highly doubt they are printing these upgraded guides. I am 99% sure they are not actually.

[tekkie]

does anyone even sell aftermarket guides? or are there only oems floating around?

No way the oems ones are 3D printed they are going to be molds, 3D printing wasnt even around when they starting making these things. At least for the Audi ones they are going to have contracts with the original companies who made them for service parts and I dont see them investing to much money into re-inventing the wheel for something probably makes thousands or maybe 10's of thousands of per year at best. If these guides are used in other engines besides the 4.2 then it might be a different story but I doubt thats the case.

[MrRay904]

If i am going to spend hours replacing the guides for the chains i would pay for the best (OEM) and get it out the way..

I would hate to end up doing this again even if its a year from then.

[Quadfreak]

I'm pretty sure JHM just assembles the kit for us so we don't have to figure it out for ourselves...it's all OEM parts

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[SlightlySlizzed]

This, I think OP is underestimating or really doesn't have a good idea on 3D printing and the costs/time associated with it. I would highly highly doubt they are printing these upgraded guides. I am 99% sure they are not actually.

Yeah I don't really know all too much about it. The basics yes but that's why I was asking. It's not like the guides are a complicated piece, fairly simple shape. But I can understand about the material. Maybe in a couple years it will be a possibility.


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[emcaha]

Yeah I don't really know all too much about it. The basics yes but that's why I was asking. It's not like the guides are a complicated piece, fairly simple shape. But I can understand about the material. Maybe in a couple years it will be a possibility.


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Def understand, I had no idea myself until starting this job. It's amazing the amount of work we go through to validate a part to production. I work on the medical side of stuff but automotive is just as strict. I'm happy we do it though, last thing you want is something to go bad. The shape itself is probably even simpler than you think, most of that ribbing you see is for void coring to remove excess material and save weight, material, money, etc. Also much easier to process the plastic with less cross sectional area and can produce parts faster.

Sorry OP, probably much more than you want to get into but I could go on for days about plastic parts, design, processing, and all that fun stuff. Live it every day.

[p3u]

Only real practical use of 3d printing these days is rapid prototyping. No one is making items on mass sale via this...

[SlightlySlizzed]

Def understand, I had no idea myself until starting this job. It's amazing the amount of work we go through to validate a part to production. I work on the medical side of stuff but automotive is just as strict. I'm happy we do it though, last thing you want is something to go bad. The shape itself is probably even simpler than you think, most of that ribbing you see is for void coring to remove excess material and save weight, material, money, etc. Also much easier to process the plastic with less cross sectional area and can produce parts faster.

Sorry OP, probably much more than you want to get into but I could go on for days about plastic parts, design, processing, and all that fun stuff. Live it every day.

Hah it's okay. I think it's interesting, I worked for Adidas and Reebok doing the graphic design for screen printing and can go on about that.

I'm just hoping that my chains are fine and that it is just my coils and plugs. Also my engine shakes at an idle which my codes read a bad engine mount. But god damn I do not have $4000 laying around to spend to fix a car (could draw my 401k I suppose or sign up for a credit card). I could get a bad ass cafe motorcycle for that though.

[65vetteC6]

koenigsegg actually uses 3D printing to make the exhasut tip out of titanium for their One:1, in 5-10 years I think you will see 3D printing used a hell of a lot more then it is now. Technology just needs to become cheaper.

[Flexicoker]

Just to reiterate what others have said. It's not just unlikely that aftermarket guides are 3D printed, or unlikely that you could make it work... it's flat out impossible. The quality and structural integrity of current 3d printed parts is no where close to where it needs to be for this sort of application... the technology is just not there yet.

[SlightlySlizzed]

Just to reiterate what others have said. It's not just unlikely that aftermarket guides are 3D printed, or unlikely that you could make it work... it's flat out impossible. The quality and structural integrity of current 3d printed parts is no where close to where it needs to be for this sort of application... the technology is just not there yet.

Got it. Figured it may be a possibility and just a thought that popped in my head. I mean you can 3d print a hand gun, figured plastic pieces in an engine wouldn't be too far fetched.


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[65vetteC6]

Got it. Figured it may be a possibility and just a thought that popped in my head. I mean you can 3d print a hand gun, figured plastic pieces in an engine wouldn't be too far fetched.


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Yea it comes down to reliability. They can shoot a mag or two through those before they probably want to stop lol.

[cdub88]

Or an entire engine block...
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/show...=75079&cat=500
[Sorry for the link, I haven't figured out how to post images yet]
This particular one was not to scale - it was maybe 1 foot wide. Still very cool to see. The future is going to be awesome.

[Jake@JHM]

I wouldn't recommended using basic 3D printed guides. But if you have all the time in the world to R&R the engine for trial and error, by all means give it a shot lol.