APR'S Stage III Gtx numbers.....

[jsandor91]

so a while back Arin threw out the idea of a APR gtx kit for the b7 to gauge interest. now i have no interest in such a kit as i already have the same turbo but what i'm more curious about is the power figures.

one thing i noticed earlier is the power APR is claiming for 100 octane race gas 449 chp!?

and a respectable 405chp for 93 octane. APR makes doesn't mention anywhere that rods are required for either of those power figures which is surprising.
we all know APR likes to stay conservative and safe and if they can make 449chp on a stock engine safely why can't we ?
they also don't mention any kind of fueling upgrades other then a fuel pump

[vce1232000]

^^^^^^ I believe that their safe power with out rods would be from the safe tune. Unfortunately they will not sell the tune seperately.

[glissoar]

There is absolutely no way that amount of power is possible on our motor with out internals and I don't believe they claim the GTX to be a complete kit with everything needed. Plus APR is gay anyway

[jsandor91]

^^^^^^ I believe that their safe power with out rods would be from the safe tune. Unfortunately they will not sell the tune seperately.

well to oversimplify from what i understand to keep the tune safe for stock rods is basically limit and keep torque linear so no crazy spikes that will snap them.
There is no black magic for them to make that power, but they are the only company who makes a gtx specific kit/tune.

and 3 emoticons that's bearable

[yungcotter]

is that the standard 2.0T or from the golf R? i know those have beefed up internals from the factory.

[jsandor91]

There is absolutely no way that amount of power is possible on our motor with out internals and I don't believe they claim the GTX to be a complete kit with everything needed. Plus APR is gay anyway

haha. just cause you went boom on k04! the 2867 can be plenty laggy downlow for more power up high.
they have a list of required parts but rods and fueling are not on there

is that the standard 2.0T or from the golf R? i know those have beefed up internals from the factory.

this is for a mkv gti the golf r has even higher numbers.

[vce1232000]

well to oversimplify from what i understand to keep the tune safe for stock rods is basically limit and keep torque linear so no crazy spikes that will snap them.
There is no black magic for them to make that power, but they are the only company who makes a gtx specific kit/tune.

and 3 emoticons that's bearable

IMO the BT set ups power doesn't come in below 3500 rpm What snaps and bends rods is the high torque from low rpm pulls. So anything above 3500 rpm the rods can handle because the torque is linear to the horsepower being developed.

On a side note. I've been attending emoticon rehabilitation. I'm trying to kick it. But it just keep calling me out to use them

[glissoar]

haha. just cause you went boom on k04! the 2867 can be plenty laggy downlow for more power up high.
they have a list of required parts but rods and fueling are not on there







this is for a mkv gti the golf r has even higher numbers.

Well that explains it for me GTI, it's 2 liters but different motor "technically" longitudinal vs transverse. And yes I am scared for life to build any turbo motor without internals

[vce1232000]

Plus APR is gay anyway

[vce1232000]

Well that explains it for me GTI, it's 2 liters but different motor "technically" longitudinal vs transverse. And yes I am scared for life to build any turbo motor without internals

Ahhh. Performance tuning ain't no fun without risks. Gotta take chances. Part of the game

[jsandor91]

Well that explains it for me GTI, it's 2 liters but different motor "technically" longitudinal vs transverse. And yes I am scared for life to build any turbo motor without internals

but i figured it has the same crappy cam follower and same crappy pcv why wouldn't it have the same crappy rods lol.
i'm itching to put rods in my car

[vce1232000]

but i figured it has the same crappy cam follower and same crappy pcv why wouldn't it have the same crappy rods lol.
i'm itching to put rods in my car

Install a FT23 and run Revo stage 2 and your problem will be solved. New rods will be required after 10 minutes of WOT.

[glissoar]

but i figured it has the same crappy cam follower and same crappy pcv why wouldn't it have the same crappy rods lol.
i'm itching to put rods in my car

I dunno maybe the Chinese dat pussy really sideways placement motor displaces the stress on the rods, maybe the B7 is destine to be plagued with internal rod gremlins that break things, never really tried to figure it out, as you see I blew one motor up, now I just say pistons and rods FTW

[Jake@JHM]

On larger turbos the power comes in higher in the rpm range, allowing you to make more power without immediate issues. Advanced tuning also helps.

[jsandor91]

On larger turbos the power comes in higher in the rpm range, allowing you to make more power without immediate issues. Advanced tuning also helps.

I wants the 449hp please.

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[Jake@JHM]

I wants the 449hp please.

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Crank? We can make it happen, but it may require hardware changes based on what we see during the tune development.

[vce1232000]

I wants the 449hp please.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

Open your wallet+ and you shall receive +=

[drumnjuny]

^^ is this dude just going to ruin every thread now?

Golf R numbers are on a FWD dyno. they disconnect the rear. so those are not what you would get on an awd dyno... or more importantly while actually driving the vehicle. its totally a waste of a dyno lmao unless anyone with a golf R is gonna drive around with the rear disconnected...

also why aren't we looking at the GTX B7's WHEEL horsepower numbers? i'm assuming they didn't release the AWHP dyno because 360awhp doesn't sound as good as 449chp (that's 20% drivetrain loss, b7's are commonly rated at 23% which would be 345awhp)

but they might have and i could be a jackass. either way we should definitely be looking at a AWHP dyno

[drumnjuny]

i mean for christ's sake they claim 375hp out of a GT28 (NOT GTX28)... lets get some awhp numbers out here lol. and i'm sure they will recommend you getting rods even at 350awhp

[Arin@APR]

so a while back Arin threw out the idea of a APR gtx kit for the b7 to gauge interest.

The programs actually back on our plate. We have two employees with B7 A4's (both motors) and both would like to go the GTX route, and then later add headporting. I'm not going to discuss timelines because I don't know what they will be, but the program should be pretty simple.

one thing i noticed earlier is the power APR is claiming for 100 octane race gas 449 chp!?

We did 402 WHP on our dyno with the BPY FSI engine, front wheel drive. That's what was used for the graph above. Head porting allowed us to go further.

Stock at the wheels, was 190 WHP.

The A4's quattro system ultimately produces much lower results than the front wheel drive vehicles.

Our number fall in line with a couple of our dealer's dynojets and our crank numbers are typically estimated pretty accurately compared to both US and ROW MAHA crank dynos that are setup properly.

APR makes doesn't mention anywhere that rods are required for either of those power figures which is surprising.

On the new Golf R, the rods are awesome. On the older A4's and other 2.0T's, no way. They'll likely fail without upgraded rods and a lot of use. However, if I'm not mistaken, we did collect the stage 3 data on stock rods. They were swapped when we did the head porting.

they also don't mention any kind of fueling upgrades other then a fuel pump

FSI (BPY) k03 based engine gets S3 injectors, APR rail valve and APR HPFP. If you add head porting, you need to upgrade the LPFP. Our official kit for that is releasing shortly.

The golf R uses the stock injectors. Gets a rail valve and APR HPFP. The new LPFP releasing shortly will come with a power increase on the Golf R kits.

The A4 GTX kit (when we do it) will require S3 injectors, APR rail valve and APR HPFP. I'm also willing to be it will need our LPFP upgrade as well.

[drumnjuny]

so those numbers are for a FWD B7 A4?

I mean i guess it doesn't matter since its CHP. so its still ~350awhp which is impressive and a lot of power out of a stock ~160awhp car. but the 449hp number is just terribly misleading...


Looks like the golf R makes about 400FWHP, so what would be about the same as our b7's. interesting, do they run the same amount of boost?

[Arin@APR]

so those numbers are for a FWD B7 A4?

No, the BPY FSI engine is the one that comes in all of the FWD transverse vehicles (A3, TT, GTI, Jetta, Passat, Eos, etc)

I mean i guess it doesn't matter since its CHP. so its still ~350awhp which is impressive and a lot of power out of a stock ~160awhp car. but the 449hp number is just terribly misleading...

What's 350 AWHP and why is 449 misleading?

449 CHP is what we estimated on the GTI, BPY, Transverse, FWD vehicle with our Stage 3 GTX kit an 100 octane. This is from the 402 WHP it produced on our dyno. This has nothing to do with the B7 A4. I don't have figures for that car with the new GTX kit because we haven't done it yet.

Looks like the golf R makes about 400FWHP, so what would be about the same as our b7's. interesting, do they run the same amount of boost?

The Golf R doesn't have much in common with the B7 compared to say the BPY GTI. The GTI is more closely related.

The Golf R kit is limited by the low pressure fueling system. Our upgrade to that system is releasing shortly along with a new calibration that makes a good bit more power to the wheels.

[Rastboostin]

The programs actually back on our plate. We have two employees with B7 A4's (both motors) and both would like to go the GTX route, and then later add headporting. I'm not going to discuss timelines because I don't know what they will be, but the program should be pretty simple.

:O

[drumnjuny]

ahhh whoops skipped the BPY part of your posts apparently. my bad. 402fwhp is a good number... seeing as we have the same motor and the estimated chp is 449, 23% drivetrain loss in our b7's puts us right around 350awhp

i'm stoked to see what you guys do with the Golf R GTX kit once you use an upgraded LPFP. which pump are you going with? an OEM or are you developing your own? am i wrong in assuming there's a high chance you'll be using the same lpfp solution in our gtx kits?

and lastly, is there any chance you will sell the LPFP as standalone hardware, sans software, the rest of the kit, etc.

[Mike@PureMS]

Arin, we have another customer ready to go with the GTX kit and head porting. Talked to Stephen@GMP at the Disco and sounded like we had almost identical cars.

[Arin@APR]

ahhh whoops skipped the BPY part of your posts apparently. my bad. 402fwhp is a good number... seeing as we have the same motor and the estimated chp is 449, 23% drivetrain loss in our b7's puts us right around 350awhp

i'm stoked to see what you guys do with the Golf R GTX kit once you use an upgraded LPFP. which pump are you going with? an OEM or are you developing your own? am i wrong in assuming there's a high chance you'll be using the same lpfp solution in our gtx kits?

and lastly, is there any chance you will sell the LPFP as standalone hardware, sans software, the rest of the kit, etc.

The LPFP upgrade will run on a standalone APR ECU. The ECU connects to the CAN bus and gets information from the main ECU to control the pump. It's pretty cool. I'll have full details on it shortly. We'll need to see if we can make it work on the A4 as I know you guys all have LPFP upgrade woes!

[Arin@APR]

Arin, we have another customer ready to go with the GTX kit and head porting. Talked to Stephen@GMP at the Disco and sounded like we had almost identical cars.

Nice. Stephen's car is also identical to travis's car (same ECU too). :)

[drumnjuny]

The LPFP upgrade will run on a standalone APR ECU. The ECU connects to the CAN bus and gets information from the main ECU to control the pump. It's pretty cool. I'll have full details on it shortly. We'll need to see if we can make it work on the A4 as I know you guys all have LPFP upgrade woes!

interesting! So am i right in thinking this implies you will sell the lpfp + controller separately? Most of us are running the RS4 LPFP controller, which makes me feel like this might be a comparable upgrade?

unfortunately for me, i'm totally done spending money on this car and am looking to another platform, but yes there will be a lot of business for this if it is a proper upgrade.

the last company to come out with a lpfp did not produce any workable results.

[jsandor91]

so if i understand correctly. the 449chp made on the gti on 100 octane are rods required if the customer wants this file? also on the 93 octane run of 405chp this was done with stock lpfp?

like i said before apr tends to remain conservative so i'm just trying to gather what is deemed safe for a stock rod 2.0t with a gtx2867.

its hard to make a direct comparison to a gti vs a4 but i'm assuming they both have the same weak stock rods.

this is all exciting stuff !

[ericpaulyoung]

The LPFP upgrade will run on a standalone APR ECU. The ECU connects to the CAN bus and gets information from the main ECU to control the pump. It's pretty cool. I'll have full details on it shortly. We'll need to see if we can make it work on the A4 as I know you guys all have LPFP upgrade woes!

Very nice.

EPY

[Arin@APR]

interesting! So am i right in thinking this implies you will sell the lpfp + controller separately? Most of us are running the RS4 LPFP controller, which makes me feel like this might be a comparable upgrade?

unfortunately for me, i'm totally done spending money on this car and am looking to another platform, but yes there will be a lot of business for this if it is a proper upgrade.

the last company to come out with a lpfp did not produce any workable results.

Yup. We'll sell it standalone too. It doesn't require an ECU change either.

Is the RS4 LPFP controller completely problem free? On the FWD vehicles, the TTRS unit was used but we discovered problems with it over heating, not turning on / off when intended, and a few other things.

[Arin@APR]

so if i understand correctly. the 449chp made on the gti on 100 octane are rods required if the customer wants this file?

We didn't upgrade the rods while tuning, but I wouldn't expect it to last forever on the stock rods. If it were my car, I'd upgrade them right away.

also on the 93 octane run of 405chp this was done with stock lpfp?

Yes

like i said before apr tends to remain conservative so i'm just trying to gather what is deemed safe for a stock rod 2.0t with a gtx2867.

its hard to make a direct comparison to a gti vs a4 but i'm assuming they both have the same weak stock rods.

this is all exciting stuff !

I don't like the early FSI rods. The new EA888 stuff is great and so are the FSI Golf R rods, but the early K03 based cars really got the shaft in that department. I would absolutely recommend upgrading them.

[drumnjuny]

Yup. We'll sell it standalone too. It doesn't require an ECU change either. THIS IS GREAT NEWS FOR OUR PLATFORM! Thank you, honestly.

Is the RS4 LPFP controller completely problem free? On the FWD vehicles, the TTRS unit was used but we discovered problems with it over heating, not turning on / off when intended, and a few other things.

I have not noticed any problems yet, but that is interesting! I'm glad I kept my stock controller just in case.

[jsandor91]

Yup. We'll sell it standalone too. It doesn't require an ECU change either.

Is the RS4 LPFP controller completely problem free? On the FWD vehicles, the TTRS unit was used but we discovered problems with it over heating, not turning on / off when intended, and a few other things.

other then some having to adjust the tune i don't recall anyone having a problem with the rs4 controller.

[ericpaulyoung]

No problems with the RS4 controller, and never seen anyone report problems either.

[Arin@APR]

What seems to be the power limit on the RS4 setup? Are you guys just using the RS4 pump and controller? I'm guessing it's expensive?

[viziers]

I had to have the LPFP maps redone on mine when paired with the RS4 controller and Johns stg II pump as I was producing way more fuel than I needed.

But now that I found my latest problem of a cracked throttle plate I can move on to finish adjusting the fuel pressure on both the high and low side.



vizi

[peb]

What seems to be the power limit on the RS4 setup? Are you guys just using the RS4 pump and controller? I'm guessing it's expensive?

The rs4 and the a4 share the same pump. It is only the controller that is different.

[Jake@JHM]

I had to have the LPFP maps redone on mine when paired with the RS4 controller and Johns stg II pump as I was producing way more fuel than I needed.

But now that I found my latest problem of a cracked throttle plate I can move on to finish adjusting the fuel pressure on both the high and low side.



vizi

How did that happen?

[Jake@JHM]

The rs4 and the a4 share the same pump. It is only the controller that is different.

Yeah the pumps are the same.