RS5 v c63

[Dfw007]

Good review of both. I especially like the 0-60 times for the 5, 3.9 secs. Fastest I have heard before. The 5 is a fast car for sure, I have been pushing it hard lately in full dynamic mode, it's scary. Preparing for a track day next month.

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2014/2/2...63-507-7718942

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[RickFLS4]

^ There is also an article in Motor Trend and a YouTube video of the same.

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[shonseb]

If Audi would listen to what critics and drivers have been saying for years about the understeer and the steering feel with lack of road feedback, this would probably be a very different outcome.

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[Mops@Nemesis]

Lulz at 21" wheels. The C's front and rear look pretty decent, but the side profile is terrible imo. Terrible! Agreed in regard to the rotors. Either way, hard to beat an AMG prep 6.3 car. Congrats to you RS boys. I've not driven one, but they seem to be very good cars

[Okan509]

haha I caight that too mops, fucking retard.

I also absolutely hate when the test cars priced with packages completely differently.

He kept on about the brakes, but the c was speccd' at 90k, while the audi under 80. you could get ceramics and make that much more even of a brake war. Assuming the 5 would beat it on ceramics.

[superswiss]

If Audi would listen to what critics and drivers have been saying for years about the understeer and the steering feel with lack of road feedback, this would probably be a very different outcome.

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I think they are listening. How else do you explain the rear-biased quattro with sport differential? Anybody who has driven the RS at or near the limit has to admit that it manages to defy the physics of having 58% of its weight over the front wheels. One has to take it to the absolute limit for the understeer to kick in, and even then all it takes is some smooth throttle input to bring the tail in line and convert the understeer into a 4-wheel slide, thanks to the rear-biased quattro, sport diff and the RS exclusive selective wheel torque control. It's actually quite a bit of fun and with the Alu Kreuz installed, the steering is pretty good.

Now that it is raining in the drought stricken California, I've actually been having some fun exploring the car's limits. For example, the other day I went on a canyon run in the rain and came into a corner way too hot for the conditions. The front just started to plow towards the rocks, but all I had to do is smoothly apply throttle way before the apex to bring the tail around and then even more throttle once I hit the apex. The car just hooks up and goes if you trust that it makes it around the corner instead of panicking and letting of the throttle or worse slam the brakes. BTW, the grip of the P-Zero sucks in the wet below about 50 degrees, although it stays nicely progressive. Can't wait for the PSS to become available again. Hope that's gonna happen before I wear out my current tires.

[Ms.S4]

God I love the RS.

[shonseb]

I'll admit I haven't pushed the rs5 to the limit, still too cold and the roads in NY are simply screwed. Just out of my experience, this being the 4rth b8 in my household all the others have understeer, and this one felt similar. But you're right, I can feel the way the crown diff pulls and pushes the car around corners at the same time while accelerating through them, very different feeling and brings a smile to my face.
I do feel the electronic steering really takes away from the feel if the road and I often find my self over correcting for their over correction. The update hasn't done anything, and I'm really hoping that the AK makes a difference, as it did in my a5.

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[Sheep Dog]

Funny how most media types love to trash the RS5 about understeer, yet pro driver Randy Pobst said:

"The R8 should be half this good! This car is fantastic. I adore it. It does such a great job utilizing all-wheel-drive traction off the corner, with zero push. You just drive in there and you think it's too early, but you just floor it and you're like, man, I should've gotten on the gas sooner. And no push, no oversteer -- it just drives right out of there, beautifully carving an exit line, using all the power. The gearbox is also very friendly. I just got more confident with carrying speed in and trusting the grip."

If the RS5 tested had the carbon-ceramic brake option, perhaps the test results would have been even more in the RS5's favor. Something tells me they were going to pick the Merc anyway, based on the engine torque and exhaust note.

I love my RS5...would never even consider trading it for a C63. RS5 has better exterior styling, way better interior, way better traction in any weather, better gearbox, and more technology features...for less money.

[Mops@Nemesis]

^ But the AMG Accord coupe will win the traffic signal wars ?!?!? ;)

[ianbell330]

The problem with the media is that all it takes is the first reviewer to say something and the rest will say the same thing thinking they might have missed something the first guy caught (and therefore will say the same thing). Hate that.

[Zee Dgerman]

^ But the AMG Accord coupe will win the traffic signal wars ?!?!? ;)

Loooooooooooooool mops.


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[Liberation]

I think they are listening. How else do you explain the rear-biased quattro with sport differential? Anybody who has driven the RS at or near the limit has to admit that it manages to defy the physics of having 58% of its weight over the front wheels. One has to take it to the absolute limit for the understeer to kick in, and even then all it takes is some smooth throttle input to bring the tail in line and convert the understeer into a 4-wheel slide, thanks to the rear-biased quattro, sport diff and the RS exclusive selective wheel torque control. It's actually quite a bit of fun and with the Alu Kreuz installed, the steering is pretty good.

Now that it is raining in the drought stricken California, I've actually been having some fun exploring the car's limits. For example, the other day I went on a canyon run in the rain and came into a corner way too hot for the conditions. The front just started to plow towards the rocks, but all I had to do is smoothly apply throttle way before the apex to bring the tail around and then even more throttle once I hit the apex. The car just hooks up and goes if you trust that it makes it around the corner instead of panicking and letting of the throttle or worse slam the brakes. BTW, the grip of the P-Zero sucks in the wet below about 50 degrees, although it stays nicely progressive. Can't wait for the PSS to become available again. Hope that's gonna happen before I wear out my current tires.

Interesting. I take it this is specific for the AWD system in the RS? I went to the two day BMW M school back in 2012 and they taught us to let off the throttle during understeer and point the car in the direction you want it to go. Specifically, on the wet skidpad. I guess this is more tailored for RWD though.

Funny how most media types love to trash the RS5 about understeer, yet pro driver Randy Pobst said:

"The R8 should be half this good! This car is fantastic. I adore it. It does such a great job utilizing all-wheel-drive traction off the corner, with zero push. You just drive in there and you think it's too early, but you just floor it and you're like, man, I should've gotten on the gas sooner. And no push, no oversteer -- it just drives right out of there, beautifully carving an exit line, using all the power. The gearbox is also very friendly. I just got more confident with carrying speed in and trusting the grip."

If the RS5 tested had the carbon-ceramic brake option, perhaps the test results would have been even more in the RS5's favor. Something tells me they were going to pick the Merc anyway, based on the engine torque and exhaust note.

I love my RS5...would never even consider trading it for a C63. RS5 has better exterior styling, way better interior, way better traction in any weather, better gearbox, and more technology features...for less money.

Amen man!

You couldn't pay me to take that C63 over the RS5. I hate the interior and the exterior but that engine is a monster. And, for $90k....it makes even less sense.

I'm not a Benz fan much at all though. Audi and BMW make much more desirable cars, IMO.

^ But the AMG Accord coupe will win the traffic signal wars ?!?!? ;)

The problem with the media is that all it takes is the first reviewer to say something and the rest will say the same thing thinking they might have missed something the first guy caught (and therefore will say the same thing). Hate that.

I agree completely!

I've pushed my RS hard into many a corner, searching for the dreaded understeer that some of these journalists harp on but I've yet to find it. However, understand completely how Randy Pobst feels about the car. It is a phenomenal machine!

It truly is...

[JRS5]

^ But the AMG Accord coupe will win the traffic signal wars ?!?!? ;)

Not even, that score on the review is based on a near perfect launch for the C63, I doubt people driving the 507 will be able to launch it like that. The RS on the other hand can get that same score repeatedly, plus the launch control is quick and easy to activate!

[ssv22]

i frequent both forums (audizine & mbworld) and its funny to see biased reactions on the same article on both sides of the fence.

^ But the AMG Accord coupe will win the traffic signal wars ?!?!? ;)

lol! true story. although the C63 BS looks significantly better from the side angle.

[Liberation]

i frequent both forums (audizine & mbworld) and its funny to see biased reactions on the same article on both sides of the fence.



lol! true story. although the C63 BS looks significantly better from the side angle.

I don't know if I'd call our comments 'biased'. The C63 is not a very good looking car and more of a straight line performer. Even the Lieberman's take on the looks and overall use ability of the RS is what we're all saying as well. My thoughts on the C63 (and Benz in general) would be the same regardless if I owned an RS. I'm just not a fan of their cars like I am Audi and BMW.

However, that engine is a monster and that's why he mainly preferred it.

[ssv22]

I don't know if I'd call our comments 'biased'. The C63 is not a very good looking car and more of a straight line performer. Even the Lieberman's take on the looks and overall use ability of the RS is what we're all saying as well. My thoughts on the C63 (and Benz in general) would be the same regardless if I owned an RS. I'm just not a fan of their cars like I am Audi and BMW.

However, that engine is a monster and that's why he mainly preferred it.

that monster engine makes people overlook the not-so-inspiring interior and even though exterior looks are subjective, lot more folks prefer the sedan over the coupe because it wins in the looks department.
besides no reviewer will choose one car over the other simply because the interior is better or the exterior is better. in this particular case, C63 won simply because the engine is raw, torquey and livelier.

[JRS5]

However, that engine is a monster and that's why he mainly preferred it.[/QUOTE]

The engine is nice, but I do not think it is really that of an achievement. It takes them 6.2 Liters to get 507 horsepower, the RS can get over 100hp/liter, the M3 as well. I thinks that is really what NA is all about, the thrill of going over 8000 rpm. I might as well get a muscle car.. its just my personal opinion/view.

[superswiss]

Interesting. I take it this is specific for the AWD system in the RS? I went to the two day BMW M school back in 2012 and they taught us to let off the throttle during understeer and point the car in the direction you want it to go. Specifically, on the wet skidpad. I guess this is more tailored for RWD though.

Letting off the throttle causes the weight to shift to the front and lightens the tail. This works well on a balanced RWD car. It gives the front tires more grip and spins the tail around. Doesn't work so well on an AWD car that already has a lot weight on the front. Instead you want to let the AWD and sport diff do the work by giving it throttle. It works even better on the RS5 as it can distribute the torque to any of the wheels that needs it.

It's totally counter intuitive to somebody who is used to driving RWD cars and it's pretty clear that most media types don't really know how to drive an AWD car and unless the car goes sideways in a corner it's not an enthusiast's car. It's also pretty clear that these guys mostly go with the wind. Just look at the contrast of the reviews between the RS5 and the RS7. The RS7 rolls and pushes like crazy, but none of these guys really dings the RS7 for it. They are all blinded by the engine. Watch the Porsche Panamera Review against the RS7 and listen to what Randy has to say. He doesn't like the RS7 at all. The chassis doesn't know whether it should understeer or oversteer and he says they should have made it more like the RS5.

[Lavoisier]

Letting off the throttle causes the weight to shift to the front and lightens the tail. This works well on a balanced RWD car. It gives the front tires more grip and spins the tail around. Doesn't work so well on an AWD car that already has a lot weight on the front. Instead you want to let the AWD and sport diff do the work by giving it throttle. It works even better on the RS5 as it can distribute the torque to any of the wheels that needs it.

It's totally counter intuitive to somebody who is used to driving RWD cars and it's pretty clear that most media types don't really know how to drive an AWD car and unless the car goes sideways in a corner it's not an enthusiast's car. It's also pretty clear that these guys mostly go with the wind. Just look at the contrast of the reviews between the RS5 and the RS7. The RS7 rolls and pushes like crazy, but none of these guys really dings the RS7 for it. They are all blinded by the engine. Watch the Porsche Panamera Review against the RS7 and listen to what Randy has to say. He doesn't like the RS7 at all. The chassis doesn't know whether it should understeer or oversteer and he says they should have made it more like the RS5.

Your posts are thoughtful and informative - appreciated.

[mdgrwl]

This thread is funny. Lots of fanboy, defensive BS.

Coming from a previous C63 owner (who test drove the RS5 many times before deciding to go with the C63), and now owning the S5, here are facts.

The C63 is a much more visceral driving experience. You feel 'connected' to the car. The grunt down low in the rpm pulls like the RS5 does up top. The car simply pulls like a train. The deep, rumbly exhaust note is what most aftermarket exhaust try to achieve. The neutral handling is very rewarding. It just rotates and feels better doing so. You can control the car with your right foot through turns. The car will dance. Steering feel and feedback is miles ahead of the RS5. Overall if your a driving enthusiast, the C63 AMG is a vastly superior car. The RS5 is quite numb in comparison.

The RS5 is a head turner. Looks amazing while the C63 is looking a bit dated. The DSG is much faster responding and overall better.It has a level of sophistication whereas the C63 is more brute. When you floor the RS5 WOT, you are initially disapointed, but it does pull and become alive up top and feels quick enough. For the price, IMO it should be quicker. The interior of the RS5 is better and worse. Better? The looks. The MMI layout looks very modern and generally cooler. Worse? The feel of the interior (buttons, less hard plastic, etc...) in the C63 is superior. The RS5 also has the sensible quality of Quattro which makes it a good year round DD. For those in tune with weight and balance, you can really feel all the weight out in front of the front axle. Biggest cause for the understear. The sport diff helps but its just not as fun as a RWD car. But if there is snow on the ground, at least your not scared to drive.

So in recap. The RS5 is the sleek, sexy and sensible sports coupe that drives like a Lexus (numb). The C63 is the brute, torquey, better handling and more agile car that isnt sensible year round and looks dated.

[superswiss]

Perhaps we all need a little reminder that both of these cars are GTs that are meant to be driven on public roads 90%+ of the time rain or shine. How about a head to head for a change that actually compares these cars for what they are.

[mdgrwl]

Excellent point.

Many get caught up in numbers that will never be achieved on the streets.

And to that point, when my C63 got totaled I decided to go Audi. I decided I wasnt putting the pulse raising driving experience of the C63 to use enough in daily driving. So I decided to go with sexy and more tame S5. Fits my daily life better.

[Mops@Nemesis]

Excellent point.

Many get caught up in numbers that will never be achieved on the streets.

And to that point, when my C63 got totaled I decided to go Audi. I decided I wasnt putting the pulse raising driving experience of the C63 to use enough in daily driving. So I decided to go with sexy and more tame S5. Fits my daily life better.

Yes and it's super annoying. Most that worry about the numbers, would never use them to the fullest anyways.

Still gotta respect that 6.3 and the AMG division. They build some great cars.

[mmaturo]

Late to the party but this car is great on the track for an Audi...No one really loses me. My experience is exactly the same as superswiss above. I have 18+ track days on my RS5 and it does things my previous Audi's never did. It is extremely controllable at the limit and the key as stated above is to stay in the throttle and trust it. My first track outing was at Gingerman up in Michigan with the car and I had never driven the track and screwed up plenty of turns for the first part of the day but I really didn't...all I had to do regardless of where I missed the apex was turn in, stay on the gas and trust the car. It worked every time where a few times I thought I should be mowing the grass. It is point and shoot. The car actually rotates, does not plow (like all other Audi's except my R8). I had an RS6 I tracked for over 5 years...that was a nose heavy plowing piggy in slow turns...the RS5 is miles better in the same spots on what was my home track in Illinois. I had the car at Circuit of the Americas a little over a year ago for a track weekend and Randy Pobst was there with my friends coaching and driving the track in our cars to learn it before his first race there. He took out my RS5 for a session then. He is very complimentary of the car in person. He giggled like a little kid though with the Miata and stripped out older track built M3s with us. The RS7 does have a terrible suspension in the first US cars...the nose up at launch is just not RS like at all and its very soft...the car rolls too much. I passed on my first order and reordered with the DRC in it. I rode along for a hot lap around Daytona in an RS7 with a pro driver driving, simple to say my RS6 was much better than the RS7. My RS5 runs through the same parts of the track flat where we were sliding at a heavy tilt (bus stop on the back straight) I expect the correct suspension on the 7 will make it much better. Which I will certainly try out myself at Daytona at some point just to feel the difference. The 7 really should be picked on for the suspension. To me it felt like an A7 or A8 for that matter.

Anyway the RS5 is a pleasure at the limit and handles like no other Audi B series (or C) to date. I haven't driven the C63 (seem to only have had opportunities for the E's) but I have driven plenty of high hp cars of from everybody. Only point I really disagree with mdgrwl is the Lexus comment. Its not THAT numb.

PS I just was out on a very empty tollway in my area with a buddy with a tuned RS6 with well over 500hp and at 60 to ummm whatever runs I held dead even. He didn't gain on me at all on repeated pulls. I was surprised by that honestly. I was complaining about missing the torque and grunt of the RS6 so looking forward to my 7 coming but clearly the 5 is faster all the way around, it just doesn't feel like it.

[Dfw007]

Late to the party but this car is great on the track for an Audi...No one really loses me. My experience is exactly the same as superswiss above. I have 18+ track days on my RS5 and it does things my previous Audi's never did. It is extremely controllable at the limit and the key as stated above is to stay in the throttle and trust it. My first track outing was at Gingerman up in Michigan with the car and I had never driven the track and screwed up plenty of turns for the first part of the day but I really didn't...all I had to do regardless of where I missed the apex was turn in, stay on the gas and trust the car. It worked every time where a few times I thought I should be mowing the grass. It is point and shoot. The car actually rotates, does not plow (like all other Audi's except my R8). I had an RS6 I tracked for over 5 years...that was a nose heavy plowing piggy in slow turns...the RS5 is miles better in the same spots on what was my home track in Illinois. I had the car at Circuit of the Americas a little over a year ago for a track weekend and Randy Pobst was there with my friends coaching and driving the track in our cars to learn it before his first race there. He took out my RS5 for a session then. He is very complimentary of the car in person. He giggled like a little kid though with the Miata and stripped out older track built M3s with us. The RS7 does have a terrible suspension in the first US cars...the nose up at launch is just not RS like at all and its very soft...the car rolls too much. I passed on my first order and reordered with the DRC in it. I rode along for a hot lap around Daytona in an RS7 with a pro driver driving, simple to say my RS6 was much better than the RS7. My RS5 runs through the same parts of the track flat where we were sliding at a heavy tilt (bus stop on the back straight) I expect the correct suspension on the 7 will make it much better. Which I will certainly try out myself at Daytona at some point just to feel the difference. The 7 really should be picked on for the suspension. To me it felt like an A7 or A8 for that matter.



Anyway the RS5 is a pleasure at the limit and handles like no other Audi B series (or C) to date. I haven't driven the C63 (seem to only have had opportunities for the E's) but I have driven plenty of high hp cars of from everybody. Only point I really disagree with mdgrwl is the Lexus comment. Its not THAT numb.

PS I just was out on a very empty tollway in my area with a buddy with a tuned RS6 with well over 500hp and at 60 to ummm whatever runs I held dead even. He didn't gain on me at all on repeated pulls. I was surprised by that honestly. I was complaining about missing the torque and grunt of the RS6 so looking forward to my 7 coming but clearly the 5 is faster all the way around, it just doesn't feel like it.

Good info. Do you use stock pads on the track?

[mlambert890]

This thread is funny. Lots of fanboy, defensive BS.

Coming from a previous C63 owner (who test drove the RS5 many times before deciding to go with the C63), and now owning the S5, here are facts.

The C63 is a much more visceral driving experience. You feel 'connected' to the car. The grunt down low in the rpm pulls like the RS5 does up top. The car simply pulls like a train. The deep, rumbly exhaust note is what most aftermarket exhaust try to achieve. The neutral handling is very rewarding. It just rotates and feels better doing so. You can control the car with your right foot through turns. The car will dance. Steering feel and feedback is miles ahead of the RS5. Overall if your a driving enthusiast, the C63 AMG is a vastly superior car. The RS5 is quite numb in comparison.

The RS5 is a head turner. Looks amazing while the C63 is looking a bit dated. The DSG is much faster responding and overall better.It has a level of sophistication whereas the C63 is more brute. When you floor the RS5 WOT, you are initially disapointed, but it does pull and become alive up top and feels quick enough. For the price, IMO it should be quicker. The interior of the RS5 is better and worse. Better? The looks. The MMI layout looks very modern and generally cooler. Worse? The feel of the interior (buttons, less hard plastic, etc...) in the C63 is superior. The RS5 also has the sensible quality of Quattro which makes it a good year round DD. For those in tune with weight and balance, you can really feel all the weight out in front of the front axle. Biggest cause for the understear. The sport diff helps but its just not as fun as a RWD car. But if there is snow on the ground, at least your not scared to drive.

So in recap. The RS5 is the sleek, sexy and sensible sports coupe that drives like a Lexus (numb). The C63 is the brute, torquey, better handling and more agile car that isnt sensible year round and looks dated.

I've owned an E92 M3, had a C63 for about 6 months, and now own an RS5. I completely disagree with your assessment.

The RS5 is *not* "numb". Now I admit that test driving the S5 *that* car did feel a bit "numb" to me during the test drive. The C63 is more visceral, sure, but it feels like a muscle car. It's similar to the CTS-V and IMO isnt so fun to drive (it feels bigger than it is whereas the RS5 feels smaller than it is). It can be fairly annoying unless you are looking to drift around a track because it is often hard to hook up with the huge torque and relatively narrow rear rubber.

The RS5 is absolutely the most *neutral* of the bunch, and a great point was made here that most are clueless how to drive AWD and hence just walk away frustrated (even on a track), but the C63 is definitely not the "drivers car" here if you want to call it that way. The E92 M3 *easily* destroys it in that regard.

IMO having actually owned *all three*, the E92 is balanced and gives the best feedback of any GT coupe. It approaches NSX or 911 level involvement (two cars I've also owned) and yet is still quite quick. The downsides are that BMW build quality has slipped and the interior looks like crap IMO.

The C63 is almost like an American car to me (similar to a Mustang 302 in some ways). Massive torque, short on finesse, but also excellent steering and brake feedback. I can see how many would love it, but it absolutely isn't for everyone and is a *very* different experience than either the extremely neutral and accessible RS5 or the superbly balanced M3.

The RS5 feels like what it is. An Autobahn cruiser. It is easily the most neutral and accessible and the most "real world fast" thanks to DSG, gearing, big rubber and Quattro. Steering feel is about as good as electric assist gets which is not very, IMO, compared to a great hydraulic system. Incidentally we will see this happen with the next gen M4 and C63 since they are going electric as well and I can tell you from first hand experience EPS in the BMW F80 sucks. That said the RS5 EPS feels much better than what I felt in the S5 (which was bad enough I passed on the car and was opting to pass on Audi until the dealer pointed me to the RS5) Inside I think the Audi has the best design by far and I didnt see the C63 as having far superior materials quality. If anything the difference between C63 and RS5 inside is purely subjective and both are superior to the M3.

I walked away from the E92 M3 because I wanted a year round car that was still fun and wanted AWD. Owning a GTR back in 09 for a couple years took that off my list so I finally decided to take a look at Audi. I'm *not* an Audi guy *at all* and was skeptical. Having come from the C63 and M3 (and having prior ownership experience with the GTR, Evo X, NSX, 911, and Corvette) *only* the RS5 in their model lineup was able to win me over as a convert.

I can see someone preferring any one of these cars over another based on their individual priorities. That's completely fair. "Numb", however, is complete BS. Much like the way ONE bad article gets parroted over and over again by other reviewers (and I *very* much agree with this - it's a great point), the QUOTES from such an article get parroted over and over again by bench racing forum critics.

TLDR? - Randy Probst would have NEVER put what was said in that article IN PRINT about a car that could be described as "numb"

[essfour]

I think the major take away from this is that Pobst was nearly half a second faster around the track in the RS5 than he was in the C63 despite the HP difference. So, other than "steering feel" I'm not sure what other negatives the RS5 would have when compared to the C63 507.

The lack of 'feel" certainly didnt seem to handicap Pobst when he drove the car, but then again you guys might be better/more in-tune drivers than him who need to feel the road conditions down to the finest of detail in your apex hunting pursuits. In any event, both are big heavy V8 cars and not exactly designed to be in line with the dynamics of a tactile and involving lotus or P car.

Between the C63 507 and the RS5 - I chose the RS5 so I could use it as a one-quiver vehicle and still have a DD that i could take skiing. If I didnt ski/live in new england, I may very well be driving a C63 at the moment. I think they are both on an equal playing field, just different players.

[mlambert890]

I think the major take away from this is that Pobst was nearly half a second faster around the track in the RS5 than he was in the C63 despite the HP difference. So, other than "steering feel" I'm not sure what other negatives the RS5 would have when compared to the C63 507.

The lack of 'feel" certainly didnt seem to handicap Pobst when he drove the car, but then again you guys might be better/more in-tune drivers than him who need to feel the road conditions down to the finest of detail in your apex hunting pursuits. In any event, both are big heavy V8 cars and not exactly designed to be in line with the dynamics of a tactile and involving lotus or P car.

Between the C63 507 and the RS5 - I chose the RS5 so I could use it as a one-quiver vehicle and still have a DD that i could take skiing. If I didnt ski/live in new england, I may very well be driving a C63 at the moment. I think they are both on an equal playing field, just different players.

Completely agree. Also, ironically, the "steering feel" thing, IMO, is something that is more felt *not* "at the limits". It's ironic because the point of EPS is to make it easier to just "tool around" (which also results in better mileage actually) while still being able to load up weight at speed and in this it is doing exactly what it should. The downside is that, for me at least, this does result in an artificial feel. You get used to it though. I'm old enough to remember when there were still cars around that didn't have power steering at all. There are still "purists" who would argue that *hydraulic assist* is "too artificial". So it's always subjective.

Clearly, at the limits, the steering works just fine though as evidenced by the track performance, and the subjective findings as well, once a pro gets behind the wheel.

[superswiss]

Completely agree. Also, ironically, the "steering feel" thing, IMO, is something that is more felt *not* "at the limits". It's ironic because the point of EPS is to make it easier to just "tool around" (which also results in better mileage actually) while still being able to load up weight at speed and in this it is doing exactly what it should. The downside is that, for me at least, this does result in an artificial feel. You get used to it though. I'm old enough to remember when there were still cars around that didn't have power steering at all. There are still "purists" who would argue that *hydraulic assist* is "too artificial". So it's always subjective.

Clearly, at the limits, the steering works just fine though as evidenced by the track performance, and the subjective findings as well, once a pro gets behind the wheel.

This is so true. Totally agree with it. I do perceive the occasional quirkiness in daily driving at slower speeds. I keep the steering in Auto for regular driving, but it's always an eye opener when I put the car in full dynamic and rip through a canyon. Completely different animal in that environment. Same goes for when I had the pleasure of driving the car on the Autobahn at top speed and circling the Nurburgring a few times.

[mmaturo]

Good info. Do you use stock pads on the track?

Nope, after the first time out I went to race pads. Made a substantial improvement. Hawk pads I think DTC-60 on the front and HP-Plus on the back. These have worked great. Would have to dig in the garage what I used early but they didn't do as well. These had no issues on really hot days at Sebring. The rotors however are soft and wear fast (the aggressive pads not helping there). They do work well though with race pads. The stock fluid really can't take anything so Motul high temp is mandatory. I so wish the ceramic brakes would have been an option day one when I ordered. They are fantastic on my R8 and would have already paid off for the number of rotor sets I have put on the car in its 20K life.

[mdgrwl]

I've owned an E92 M3, had a C63 for about 6 months, and now own an RS5. I completely disagree with your assessment.

The RS5 is *not* "numb". Now I admit that test driving the S5 *that* car did feel a bit "numb" to me during the test drive. The C63 is more visceral, sure, but it feels like a muscle car. It's similar to the CTS-V and IMO isnt so fun to drive (it feels bigger than it is whereas the RS5 feels smaller than it is). It can be fairly annoying unless you are looking to drift around a track because it is often hard to hook up with the huge torque and relatively narrow rear rubber.

The RS5 is absolutely the most *neutral* of the bunch, and a great point was made here that most are clueless how to drive AWD and hence just walk away frustrated (even on a track), but the C63 is definitely not the "drivers car" here if you want to call it that way. The E92 M3 *easily* destroys it in that regard.

IMO having actually owned *all three*, the E92 is balanced and gives the best feedback of any GT coupe. It approaches NSX or 911 level involvement (two cars I've also owned) and yet is still quite quick. The downsides are that BMW build quality has slipped and the interior looks like crap IMO.

The C63 is almost like an American car to me (similar to a Mustang 302 in some ways). Massive torque, short on finesse, but also excellent steering and brake feedback. I can see how many would love it, but it absolutely isn't for everyone and is a *very* different experience than either the extremely neutral and accessible RS5 or the superbly balanced M3.

The RS5 feels like what it is. An Autobahn cruiser. It is easily the most neutral and accessible and the most "real world fast" thanks to DSG, gearing, big rubber and Quattro. Steering feel is about as good as electric assist gets which is not very, IMO, compared to a great hydraulic system. Incidentally we will see this happen with the next gen M4 and C63 since they are going electric as well and I can tell you from first hand experience EPS in the BMW F80 sucks. That said the RS5 EPS feels much better than what I felt in the S5 (which was bad enough I passed on the car and was opting to pass on Audi until the dealer pointed me to the RS5) Inside I think the Audi has the best design by far and I didnt see the C63 as having far superior materials quality. If anything the difference between C63 and RS5 inside is purely subjective and both are superior to the M3.

I walked away from the E92 M3 because I wanted a year round car that was still fun and wanted AWD. Owning a GTR back in 09 for a couple years took that off my list so I finally decided to take a look at Audi. I'm *not* an Audi guy *at all* and was skeptical. Having come from the C63 and M3 (and having prior ownership experience with the GTR, Evo X, NSX, 911, and Corvette) *only* the RS5 in their model lineup was able to win me over as a convert.

I can see someone preferring any one of these cars over another based on their individual priorities. That's completely fair. "Numb", however, is complete BS. Much like the way ONE bad article gets parroted over and over again by other reviewers (and I *very* much agree with this - it's a great point), the QUOTES from such an article get parroted over and over again by bench racing forum critics.

TLDR? - Randy Probst would have NEVER put what was said in that article IN PRINT about a car that could be described as "numb"

The RS5 is the most neutral of the bunch? Lol... keep drinking that Quattro Coolaid bud.. The RS5 weight distribution is like driving a Porsche 911 in reverse. Super nose heavy. The friggin engine hangs way out in FRONT of the front axle.

In terms of chassis balance and neutrality the pecking order goes as such. E92 > C63 > RS5. You cant defy physics and gravity. The weight distribution of the RS5 is pants. 59/41 to be exact. C63 is 53/47, and the M3 is 52/48. And forget paper stats... a simple UNBIASED test drive clearly displays this. Im a novice and I felt it, let alone all of the top auto journalist feeling it as well.

And as far as driver involvement, pecking order is as such: C63 > E92 > RS5. The E93 has LEGENDARY chassis balance. The new M3/M4 has big shoes to fill in this regard. The chassis balance around corners gets top marks. The C63 is close, but doesn't have the same balance.... but where it trumps the E92 is steering feel and driver involvement. The suspension is more stiff and the steering wheel communicates much more to the driver over the E92. The E92 is good, but he C63 communiates the road more. The RS5 (in direct comparison) is numb, sorry Chuck. I test drove the M3, C63 and RS5 same day twice. Out of all of them, the C63 felt the most "raw" of the bunch. The RS5 is a very refined, isolated drive in direct comparison. Jump in a C63 and 10min later jump in an RS5 and this is quite clear. In addition to the "numb" feel in comparison to the "raw" feel of the C63 - the RS5 has just terrible feeling steering. Comfort is way too soft. Dynamic is way too friggin stiff. The C63 is a breath of fresh air with plain, simple GOOD steering. Choice is not always good. I'll take GOOD steering over "choice of two compromises" anyday.

I swear, people, out of pride, will defend what they purchase as the best thing since sliced bread. With good reason, you spent your hard earned cash on it... did hours of research, test drives, etc... so of course what you drive is "the best", oh yeah, and now "most neutral".

You folks need to swallow the hard truth that the RS5 is NOT the best drivers car out of the German trio. Its just not. Sorry. Sensible? Yes. Sexy? Yes. Most rewarding "DRIVING EXPERIENCE"? No. Unless you like the feeling of isolation.

Get over your swollen pride. And accept the fact that none of this "driving at the limit", or 10/10ths driving stuff is even important as we dont push our cars to this extent on the streets anyway. So really, who friggin cares? Drive what you think is the coolest. As much as I LOVED my C63, today I choose Quattro, despite everything I just said.

[mdgrwl]

I think the major take away from this is that Pobst was nearly half a second faster around the track in the RS5 than he was in the C63 despite the HP difference. So, other than "steering feel" I'm not sure what other negatives the RS5 would have when compared to the C63 507.

The lack of 'feel" certainly didnt seem to handicap Pobst when he drove the car, but then again you guys might be better/more in-tune drivers than him who need to feel the road conditions down to the finest of detail in your apex hunting pursuits. In any event, both are big heavy V8 cars and not exactly designed to be in line with the dynamics of a tactile and involving lotus or P car.

Between the C63 507 and the RS5 - I chose the RS5 so I could use it as a one-quiver vehicle and still have a DD that i could take skiing. If I didnt ski/live in new england, I may very well be driving a C63 at the moment. I think they are both on an equal playing field, just different players.

Depends what track.

The C63 is faster around the Nurburgring than an RS5...

[easy_button]

Depends what track.

The C63 is faster around the Nurburgring than an RS5...

Black series, yes; Normal C63, no. RS5 - 7:59; C63 - 8:01; C63 BLK 7:46

C63 BLK is a whole different animal.

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/nordschleife.html

[banksc]

Get over your swollen pride.

Get over yourself... Telling someone they are wrong when they owned the car in question does zero for your credibility with me. Of course, you don't care because you are right.

[JimWB]

This is like the "Why do people buy MMI" discussion all over again

[mdgrwl]

Get over yourself... Telling someone they are wrong when they owned the car in question does zero for your credibility with me. Of course, you don't care because you are right.

Get over Myself? What personal agenda do I have in this debate? I have no dog in this race. I don't own any of the 3 cars in question (RS5/M3/C63).

I used to own a C63, and now I'm in Quattro... I'm as unbiased as it gets and my opinion just so happens to line up with other many other unbiased sources.

I'm sorry you don't like to hear an unbiased and fare comparison on your presious RS5 and how it stacks up in the German trio.

And yes, he is "wrong" even though this is a subjective matter. When every top auto journalist makes the same observations around the world regarding the M3/RS5/C63 - it becomes fact in my opinion. That is solidified when my own personal opinion falls in line with theirs as well. Then its a field survey which is as good as hard data IMO.

Saying the RS5 is the most "neutral" out of the bunch is "wrong".
Saying the M3 gives more driving feedback is "wrong".

When people make these bold observations that go against the grain of truth - it becomes fanboy BS. Or they simply have no idea how to properly observe cars...

Every car has their pro's and con's. Points in which some excell over others... The RS5 has plenty of points above the C63, same as the C63 over the RS5... same as the M3. Be truthful and you'll realize this. Be a fanboy and the RS5 is the holy grail above all others, no matter what.

[superswiss]

I think at some point a critical observer has to pick up on the fact that evidently Quattro Gmbh must be doing something right with the drivetrain as the on paper unfavorable weight distribution doesn't seem to hinder a pro driver like Randy Pobst to show the better balanced, more tq and more hp 507 the door. Even the almighty car journalist in this video says that there is no push until about 9.4/10, so I'm not sure what push a novice would feel during a casual test drive, but anyway. I hope everybody bought the car that they feel is the best to/for them and not because some car journalist says so.

[Sheep Dog]

Matt Farah from The Smoking Tire did a decent review of the RS5. He addresses the understeer issue (not really present during his drive) and mentions the dynamic handling compared to the M3 and C63.

http://youtu.be/j14iS2U9zL8

[Zee Dgerman]

I love my RS5 and that's all that matters to me :-)